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Filppula & The Selke


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#21 Datsyerberger

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 07:39 PM

I think other than Z and Dats the mostly likely player to win the Selke on the Wings in the next 5-7 years is Helm.. If he can continue his development of his offensive game, he may even take Flips job.


Helm has wheels, is great on the PK and a solid checker, but he's still got a ways to go to match Flip on positioning and overall defensive poise, particularly at ES. Arguably the best aspect of Flip's game aside from his skating.
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#22 Konnan511

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 09:16 PM

Filppula isn't flashy enough to win a Selke, but Buccigross has stated that he thinks Helm might win it next year.
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#23 Datsyerberger

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 10:02 PM

Filppula isn't flashy enough to win a Selke, but Buccigross has stated that he thinks Helm might win it next year.


Believable that Helm could win it within a handful of years, his game is much more exciting.
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#24 eva unit zero

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 11:16 PM

Filppula is at best the fourth-best defensive forward on the Wings. He's probably close to 9th or 10th in the division. A Selke is hardly something that should be discussed as in his future, at this point anyway. Calling Flip for a Selke is like calling Hudler for the All-Star Game.
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#25 Red Wings Addict

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 11:26 PM

I think some people just got it into their head that he was supposed to 'break out.'


Well a lot of people have been hoping for that ever since the start of 08-09.

Though, the 70 point expectations may not be all that fair. I know Ken Holland first brought that up but people also forget that he qualified it with a disclaimer.


"We love everything about him because he's a complete player with great character, and we think he can get even better," Detroit general manager Ken Holland told The Associated Press. "He plays hard, he plays hurt. He's got great speed and talent along with versatility because he can play left wing or centre."

"The only thing no one knows is how good he can be. But even if he doesn't become a 70-point scorer we think he might be, we'll still love everything about him as a player and person."


The 24-year-old restricted free agent, who avoided salary arbitration with the deal, now is under contract through the 2012-13 season with a team set up for short-and long-term success.

"We're really excited about locking in a player this young and this good that keeps him off the market as an unrestricted free agent for a couple of years," Holland said. "He's the kind of player we can build around in the years to come."

-Ken Holland. July 30th, 2008.

http://www.thehockey...eyear-deal.html


The Wings don't really expect him to get 70 points. It seems like they say that as if that could be his peak.

Edited by Red Wings Addict, 15 June 2011 - 11:29 PM.


#26 stinky fish taco

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 11:33 PM

Filppula


Selke


are you stoned? get real. LOL.

Helm is a perennial Selke candidate

LOL

#27 Never_Retire_Steve

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 11:39 PM

What the f***? Flip isn't even in the top 3 defensively on his own team, how is he supposed to win when he wouldn't even get nominated on his own team


#28 Datsyerberger

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 11:50 PM

ITT:

People who post on the 2nd page don't read the OP.

Details at 7.
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#29 stinky fish taco

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 11:53 PM

thanks for ranking filppula in the same defensive group as bolland, malhotra, etc. i needed a good laugh.

protip: stop eating paint chips.

Helm is a perennial Selke candidate

LOL

#30 Never_Retire_Steve

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 11:56 PM

ITT:

People who post on the 2nd page don't read the OP.

Details at 7.


What? I hope this wasn't directed at me because I clearly read the OP. You mentioned that he may have an outside chance at a top 3 finish and asked if you were alone in that thought. So unless the nominations are purely Red Wings players I have a very hard time seeing him get nominated for the Selke when he isn't even in the top 3 on the Red Wings team.

Don't get me wrong, the Red Wings have some great defensive forwards but him being that far on the depth chart on his own team tells me there is about 0% chance that he will get a Selke nomination.


#31 Datsyerberger

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 02:29 AM

What? I hope this wasn't directed at me because I clearly read the OP. You mentioned that he may have an outside chance at a top 3 finish and asked if you were alone in that thought. So unless the nominations are purely Red Wings players I have a very hard time seeing him get nominated for the Selke when he isn't even in the top 3 on the Red Wings team.

Don't get me wrong, the Red Wings have some great defensive forwards but him being that far on the depth chart on his own team tells me there is about 0% chance that he will get a Selke nomination.


It was very much at least partly directed at you, yes. The conclusion of the OP (further discussed in posts beyond) was that, without the presence of Datsyuk and Zetterberg on the team, Flip might show up in the top 5 in voting once or twice and that there might be an outside chance of him hitting in the top 3 once later in his career (under the same circumstances), but such is unlikely due to a very non-flashy style of play.

Having either not adequately read or not comprehended the material, you then go on to say (and further elaborate in the quoted post above) that he probably won't get top 3 in the voting, particularly taking into account the two amazing forwards on his team. Given that not only was this already adequately discussed but that those details and a subsequent scenario were specifically discussed with the OP, and that point 1. ruled out any such thing happening, I'm pretty sure I agree... and, seeing as your post seems to address the topic of the OP as if you disagree with the OP (even though your post comes to the same conclusion to the OP), I'm fairly certain you either didn't read it sufficiently or completely misunderstood it.

However, thanks for at least trying to add to an intelligent discussion, something another poster on this page obviously and utterly failed at.
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#32 SouthernWingsFan

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 07:00 AM

I've been musing over this for a while.

First, let me acknowledge a couple things:

1. A 'skill' guy like Filppula isn't going to win a Selke unless he's amazing (see: Datsyuk, Pavel). Physically aggressive play is still a necessary component to what many in the media consider to be defense (this is also why the majority of Norris candidates/winners are also physically-oriented guys and why pure skill winners are rare; see Lidstrom, Nicklas).

2. There are people I'd take over Filppula regardless of the above point.

That said, I've wondered how much Selke attention Filppula would get if Datsyuk and Zetterberg were more offense-oriented players. He can PK well and is one of the safest players at ES in the league right now, in my opinion. Most other players in a 2C role that put up his offensive numbers are considerably inferior defensively. Unfortunately, he has an extremely non-assertive style that tends not to get him noticed as much.

I can't see him winning with his style of play nor the shutdown ability of some of the guys out there, but I could see him with a handful of top 5 finishes and a outside-to-decent chance of a top 3 finish or two. Am I alone in this observation?

Oddly enough, sometimes you have better offensive numbers than usual to win the Selke. Look at Draper when he won it in 2004 (?), he's only been good for at most 10-15 goals a year and that year he scored 20+ and had his best offensive production.

So while Datsyuk and Zetterberg are great defensively obviously, their offensive numbers help their cause.

I love Flipper, he's a great defensive forward, but is offensively too streaky or hot/cold or whatever.

It shouldn't matter as much, but some offensive production with the Selke does make a difference.

I firmly believe that a Selke is in Filppula's future. At the very least, a runner up.

I know you are a big fan of him, but this is a bit of a stretch.

#33 Konnan511

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 11:50 AM

Oddly enough, sometimes you have better offensive numbers than usual to win the Selke. Look at Draper when he won it in 2004 (?), he's only been good for at most 10-15 goals a year and that year he scored 20+ and had his best offensive production.

So while Datsyuk and Zetterberg are great defensively obviously, their offensive numbers help their cause.

I love Flipper, he's a great defensive forward, but is offensively too streaky or hot/cold or whatever.

It shouldn't matter as much, but some offensive production with the Selke does make a difference.


I know you are a big fan of him, but this is a bit of a stretch.


I don't see it as a stretch, in five years, he might not be with the team and he might be centering a first line on some NHL team while being their 1st PK unit. He has all the tools to win a Selke. I also believe Helm will win one sooner rather than later.
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#34 GoWings1905

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 12:13 PM

If Henrik Zetterberg can't even get nominated consistently, no chance hell in Filppula ever will, let alone win the Selke.

That's not even a knock really on Filppula as he is a quite strong two-way forward, but he isn't even anywhere near Z's league defensively.

Edited by GoWings1905, 16 June 2011 - 12:13 PM.

 
 
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#35 Finnish Wing

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 12:20 PM

If Henrik Zetterberg can't even get nominated consistently, no chance hell in Filppula ever will, let alone win the Selke.

That's not even a knock really on Filppula as he is a quite strong two-way forward, but he isn't even anywhere near Z's league defensively.

Not true.
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#36 GoWings1905

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 12:30 PM

Not true.


Very true. Z plays against better forwards every game. He's a better back-checker, has stronger defensive sense and positioning. I would argue Z is even a better penalty killer even though he doesn't get the chance to keep his minutes down.

Again, I'm not knocking Filppula as he has very strong defensive skills. But as others have said in the thread, Datsyuk and Zetterberg are in a class of their own as two of the best defensive forwards in the league. Filppula isn't at that level, nor do I see him getting there.
 
 
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#37 eva unit zero

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 01:15 PM

Not true.


Filppula is a good defensive center. Zetterberg is one of the top five defensive forwards in the league. There is a huge difference. Filppula probably could center a first line if he could bring his offensive game consistently, while Z is an elite center at both ends of the ice.
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#38 Finnish Wing

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 01:51 PM

Filppula is a good defensive center. Zetterberg is one of the top five defensive forwards in the league. There is a huge difference. Filppula probably could center a first line if he could bring his offensive game consistently, while Z is an elite center at both ends of the ice.

Zetterberg is one of the top two-way forwards. But if you look only the defensive aspect he's not that much better than Flip that you could say "it's not anywhere near". Filppula is a good two-way forward yes, but if you look only at the defensive aspect he's more than just "good".

It's the same thing when people say Crosby is one of the better all-around players. He's a beast offensively and that makes people overrate his defense compared to players who don't score that much.

Edited by Finnish Wing, 18 June 2011 - 01:52 PM.

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#39 dragonballgtz

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 01:58 PM

Flip win a Selke :rotflmao:

#40 Never_Retire_Steve

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 05:42 PM

It was very much at least partly directed at you, yes. The conclusion of the OP (further discussed in posts beyond) was that, without the presence of Datsyuk and Zetterberg on the team, Flip might show up in the top 5 in voting once or twice and that there might be an outside chance of him hitting in the top 3 once later in his career (under the same circumstances), but such is unlikely due to a very non-flashy style of play.Having either not adequately read or not comprehended the material, you then go on to say (and further elaborate in the quoted post above) that he probably won't get top 3 in the voting, particularly taking into account the two amazing forwards on his team. Given that not only was this already adequately discussed but that those details and a subsequent scenario were specifically discussed with the OP, and that point 1. ruled out any such thing happening, I'm pretty sure I agree... and, seeing as your post seems to address the topic of the OP as if you disagree with the OP (even though your post comes to the same conclusion to the OP), I'm fairly certain you either didn't read it sufficiently or completely misunderstood it.However, thanks for at least trying to add to an intelligent discussion, something another poster on this page obviously and utterly failed at.


Alright, I still disagree with your main conclusion that he is even in the top 5 without Dats or Z (and I'm sorry but lol at taking 2 of the very best defensive forwards in the league out of the discussion). I think why I reacted the way I did in my post was because your title and mentioned the Selke and the fact that he isn't even top 3 on his team has a lot of relevance to your OP and main point. Just to give you a hyperbole.... I think that Zetterberg and Datsyuk could win the Art Ross or be top 3 if Crosby, Ovechkin or the Sedin twins weren't in the league. Seems kinda funny that you would say he has a chance at the Selke but you have to make exclusions to winning the trophy. Aside from the Red Wings I think guys like J. Staal, M. Richards, J. Toews, R. Kesler, and the list goes on are better than Flip. Is he a good defensive forward? Absolutely, however, I think we tend to exercise a lot of bias when we compare Red Wings to other players in the league especially in a category like this because let's face it, shut down forwards don't get a lot of hype.






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