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Filppula & The Selke


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#41 Konnan511

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 05:48 PM

I still don't see why he couldn't win one. Obviously he won't win one in the next five years, but after that, he has a chance.
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#42 Datsyerberger

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 05:48 PM

Alright, I still disagree with your main conclusion that he is even in the top 5 without Dats or Z (and I'm sorry but lol at taking 2 of the very best defensive forwards in the league out of the discussion). I think why I reacted the way I did in my post was because your title and mentioned the Selke and the fact that he isn't even top 3 on his team has a lot of relevance to your OP and main point. Just to give you a hyperbole.... I think that Zetterberg and Datsyuk could win the Art Ross or be top 3 if Crosby, Ovechkin or the Sedin twins weren't in the league. Seems kinda funny that you would say he has a chance at the Selke but you have to make exclusions to winning the trophy. Aside from the Red Wings I think guys like J. Staal, M. Richards, J. Toews, R. Kesler, and the list goes on are better than Flip. Is he a good defensive forward? Absolutely, however, I think we tend to exercise a lot of bias when we compare Red Wings to other players in the league especially in a category like this because let's face it, shut down forwards don't get a lot of hype.


Keep in mind that my conclusion he has a chance in finishing top 5 in voting later in his career when his play further solidifies, and that this chance increases without Dats and Z eating votes... not that I think he's one of the top 5 fowards defensively (I'd feel fairly confident putting him in the top 15 centers defensively, though).
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#43 eva unit zero

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 11:30 PM

Keep in mind that my conclusion he has a chance in finishing top 5 in voting later in his career when his play further solidifies, and that this chance increases without Dats and Z eating votes... not that I think he's one of the top 5 fowards defensively (I'd feel fairly confident putting him in the top 15 centers defensively, though).


I would disagree with top 15 centers. Think about it. Even on his own team, you have Henrik Zetterberg, Pavel Datsyuk, and Darren Helm. That's three already. Now let's go around the division. In Chicago there's Jonathan Toews and Dave Bolland. Columbus has Sami Pahlsson. Nashville has Jerred Smithson. St. Louis has Jay McClement.

So within the division there are eight centers better defensively than Flip. Granted, Pahlsson is practically retired and a guy like McClement isn't going to win a Selke, but that wasn't your criteria.

So do you think there are fewer than seven centers throughout the rest of the league who are better than Filppula defensively? How about Ryan Kesler, Patrice Bergeron, Mikko Koivu, Travis Zajac, Mike Richards, Jeff Carter, and Jordan Staal? I figure there are more, as well. I believe Filppula would fall into the top 45 forwards defensively, but center holds an even higher percentage of the top defensive forwards than it does of offensive forwards, so he's not cracking that group.

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#44 Konnan511

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 11:37 PM

I would disagree with top 15 centers. Think about it. Even on his own team, you have Henrik Zetterberg, Pavel Datsyuk, and Darren Helm. That's three already. Now let's go around the division. In Chicago there's Jonathan Toews and Dave Bolland. Columbus has Sami Pahlsson. Nashville has Jerred Smithson. St. Louis has Jay McClement.

So within the division there are eight centers better defensively than Flip. Granted, Pahlsson is practically retired and a guy like McClement isn't going to win a Selke, but that wasn't your criteria.

So do you think there are fewer than seven centers throughout the rest of the league who are better than Filppula defensively? How about Ryan Kesler, Patrice Bergeron, Mikko Koivu, Travis Zajac, Mike Richards, Jeff Carter, and Jordan Staal? I figure there are more, as well. I believe Filppula would fall into the top 45 forwards defensively, but center holds an even higher percentage of the top defensive forwards than it does of offensive forwards, so he's not cracking that group.


I disagree with most of that first paragraph, most of the second and most of the third.
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#45 Datsyerberger

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 11:43 PM

I would disagree with top 15 centers. Think about it. Even on his own team, you have Henrik Zetterberg, Pavel Datsyuk, and Darren Helm. That's three already. Now let's go around the division. In Chicago there's Jonathan Toews and Dave Bolland. Columbus has Sami Pahlsson. Nashville has Jerred Smithson. St. Louis has Jay McClement.


Filppula is better defensively than Helm (Helm is a better PKer, however). Bolland is better at 1 on 1 shutdown but Flip is better positionally; I'd give an edge to Bolland based off of last year. Pahlsson isn't what he used to be; agree on McClement, though, he's very underrated. Smithson isn't quite to Flip's level, and speaking of Nashville, I think Flip's probably ahead of Fisher at this point.

Datsyuk
Zetterberg
Toews
Kesler
M. Koivu
M. Richards
McClement
Bolland
J. Staal
Bergeron
Zajac
Malhotra

that's 12 I'd confidently put ahead of Flip, with a ~3 player cushion for a player or two I may have brainfarted on. Easily has a chance of slipping into the bottom half of my top 15.

Agree on Carter at one point, by the way, but though he's still been solid the last couple years, he seems very uninspired (not quite lazy) the last couple as well. Reminding me of Heatley in that regard.

Edited by Datsyerberger, 18 June 2011 - 11:44 PM.

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#46 eva unit zero

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 11:46 PM

I disagree with most of that first paragraph, most of the second and most of the third.


What exactly do you disagree with? The fact that Filppula isn't a Selke contender right now?
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#47 Datsyerberger

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 11:51 PM

What exactly do you disagree with? The fact that Filppula isn't a Selke contender right now?


I think pretty much everyone agrees with that.
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#48 eva unit zero

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 11:53 PM

Filppula is better defensively than Helm (Helm is a better PKer, however). Bolland is better at 1 on 1 shutdown but Flip is better positionally; I'd give an edge to Bolland based off of last year. Pahlsson isn't what he used to be; agree on McClement, though, he's very underrated. Smithson isn't quite to Flip's level, and speaking of Nashville, I think Flip's probably ahead of Fisher at this point.

Datsyuk
Zetterberg
Toews
Kesler
M. Koivu
M. Richards
McClement
Bolland
J. Staal
Bergeron
Zajac
Malhotra

that's 12 I'd confidently put ahead of Flip, with a ~3 player cushion for a player or two I may have brainfarted on. Easily has a chance of slipping into the bottom half of my top 15.

Agree on Carter at one point, by the way, but though he's still been solid the last couple years, he seems very uninspired (not quite lazy) the last couple as well. Reminding me of Heatley in that regard.


John Madden, Marty Reasoner, Matt Cullen, Dominic Moore?
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#49 Datsyerberger

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 11:56 PM

John Madden, Marty Reasoner, Matt Cullen, Dominic Moore?


Madden: Not at this point
Cullen: Debatable. He's certainly solid 2-way.
Moore: Debatable; I'd potentially put him as one of my other top 15s.
Reasoner: Respectable, but not ahead of Flip, Moore, Cullen.
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#50 Konnan511

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 11:58 PM

What exactly do you disagree with? The fact that Filppula isn't a Selke contender right now?


I'll let you figure that out, because that assumption is very very wrong. I even said he wasn't a contender right now. You should start reading my posts better instead of the ones you merely quote. There are more to threads than just what people quote of yours.
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#51 Z and D for the C

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Posted 19 June 2011 - 06:25 PM

I would disagree with top 15 centers. Think about it. Even on his own team, you have Henrik Zetterberg, Pavel Datsyuk, and Darren Helm. That's three already. Now let's go around the division. In Chicago there's Jonathan Toews and Dave Bolland. Columbus has Sami Pahlsson. Nashville has Jerred Smithson. St. Louis has Jay McClement.

So within the division there are eight centers better defensively than Flip. Granted, Pahlsson is practically retired and a guy like McClement isn't going to win a Selke, but that wasn't your criteria.

So do you think there are fewer than seven centers throughout the rest of the league who are better than Filppula defensively? How about Ryan Kesler, Patrice Bergeron, Mikko Koivu, Travis Zajac, Mike Richards, Jeff Carter, and Jordan Staal? I figure there are more, as well. I believe Filppula would fall into the top 45 forwards defensively, but center holds an even higher percentage of the top defensive forwards than it does of offensive forwards, so he's not cracking that group.


Helm being better than Fil defensively is hysterical. He really isn't that great on the PK even. He works hard and he skates fast (and those are the two reasons he's on the PK), but he gets himself out of position a lot as well. Multiple goals were scored this year because of it.

Edited by Z and D for the C, 19 June 2011 - 06:31 PM.

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#52 Crymson

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Posted 19 June 2011 - 08:22 PM

Helm being better than Fil defensively is hysterical. He really isn't that great on the PK even. He works hard and he skates fast (and those are the two reasons he's on the PK), but he gets himself out of position a lot as well. Multiple goals were scored this year because of it.


Hudler is better than both of them.

#53 Red Wings Addict

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Posted 19 June 2011 - 08:37 PM

Hudler is better than both of them.


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#54 eva unit zero

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 12:11 AM

Helm being better than Fil defensively is hysterical. He really isn't that great on the PK even. He works hard and he skates fast (and those are the two reasons he's on the PK), but he gets himself out of position a lot as well. Multiple goals were scored this year because of it.


The same happens to Flip. Everyone gets out of position sometimes. I can recall a few goals this year where Flip went behind Howard to try and nab the puck carrier, leaving the front of the net uncovered because he was either trying to do someone else's job or leaving a more important spot.

Are you aking the argument that getting caught out of position, or doing so in a certain way, puts a defensive skill level on someone? Because then you can go ahead and mark Hudler as a highly skilled defensive forward, as the only notable goal scored due directly to his being out of position was the Boyle goal in the Sharks series - which was IDENTICAL to Boyle's goal the previous play, when Helm was the "victim".

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#55 Never_Retire_Steve

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 02:12 AM

Keep in mind that my conclusion he has a chance in finishing top 5 in voting later in his career when his play further solidifies, and that this chance increases without Dats and Z eating votes... not that I think he's one of the top 5 fowards defensively (I'd feel fairly confident putting him in the top 15 centers defensively, though).


Hmmm, I would put him around 15-20 right now with some younger guys than him in that list, throw in the fact that you will have guys coming up through the minors/juniors and there is no way that he gets a Selke nod.


#56 kipwinger

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 06:37 AM

I like how this post has devolved from a very reasonable OP which acknowledged that Filppula isn't the best defensive forward in the league, wasn't going to win a Selke, but was nonetheless a very talented defender who is likely in the upper eschelon of defensive forwards in the league, but who gets little notice because of his unassuming style and more able teammates.

So what does everybody start arguing about immediately? 1) Flip isn't the best defensive forward in the league. 2) He's never going to win a Selke. 3) He's good but not even the best on his team. 4) His style is unassuming and doesn't draw a lot of attention.

Way to go you hockey gurus, you've certainly enlightened everyone except the original poster or anyone with reading comprehension skills more developed than an ape.

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