121 replies to this topic

[Travis]

So, whom do you figure the Wild would have asked for from us? The Sharks gave up a good, young offensive forward, a high-level defensive prospect and a first-round pick. What do you think it would have taken the Wings to match that?

Something nobody on this board would have wanted to give up. Don't you remember, we're thing Wings, everyone wants our left overs and players of low value!

[Crymson]

Something nobody on this board would have wanted to give up. Don't you remember, we're thing Wings, everyone wants our left overs and players of low value!

Yeah, people get furious that we didn't obtain Burns by simply offering them something like Hudler, Emmerton and a 1st. lol.

[Hockeytown_Ryan]

Burns is the scape goat.... its the idea he got traded and the Front Office let it go with out a fight or a offer....then trade the 1st pick away for 2 second rounders because they are confident the players they are looking at will be there when they want them.(does that mean we never look at players above the rank of 30?) honestly its frustrating.... to see all these teams around us getting better and wondering why Holland is prepared to wait. Why is my question. does he think that there is another Datsyuk or Zett sitting in the later rounds that only HE knows about..... sometimes playing it cool and patient doesnt make you a better team...or a better GM. It makes you play golf in May.

He wants his players to be aggressive and play to their ability, Why can't we expect the same from our GM? He has players of value...and cap space. and still has done very little when you look at what has been done around the league.

funny really... Thats all that anyone saw.....most of that was about picks and being an agressive GM and that is all anyone saw.

Yeah, people get furious that we didn't obtain Burns by simply offering them something like Hudler, Emmerton and a 1st. lol.

Burns (in my opinion) was just the final shoe to drop that got Babs angry.. seeing Carter to CLB for rights to a RFA and a 1st and 3rd being a trade we could of made as well.

My focus was on making the team better.....via trade...as it has been said we would do. I realize the season has not started yet....and Its a long season once it starts...
And I guess San Jose doesnt covet their young talent like the Wings do. I am with Babs I am upset we didnt get him... dont ask me who to trade....I never once dropped names like some of you did. your asking me when your all telling me " I am a idiot..." and A furious fan because we didnt get a good player for nothing... Whatever folks...

I also realize that FA starts on Friday. and we have money.... should get a lot of guys. But the question is...... Will we? I reserve the rights to have doubts... But Ill wait till after the holiday weekend.

[Crymson]

Burns (in my opinion) was just the final shoe to drop that got Babs angry.. seeing Carter to CLB for rights to a RFA and a 1st and 3rd being a trade we could of made as well.

My focus was on making the team better.....via trade...as it has been said we would do. I realize the season has not started yet....and Its a long season once it starts...
And I guess San Jose doesnt covet their young talent like the Wings do. I am with Babs I am upset we didnt get him... dont ask me who to trade....I never once dropped names like some of you did. your asking me when your all telling me " I am a idiot..." and A furious fan because we didnt get a good player for nothing... Whatever folks...

I also realize that FA starts on Friday. and we have money.... should get a lot of guys. But the question is...... Will we? I reserve the rights to have doubts... But Ill wait till after the holiday weekend.

You didn't answer me, so I'll repeat the question: what package could we have offered that would have been more attractive than that which the Sharks presented?

[Buppy]

funny really... Thats all that anyone saw.....most of that was about picks and being an agressive GM and that is all anyone saw.

Burns (in my opinion) was just the final shoe to drop that got Babs angry.. seeing Carter to CLB for rights to a RFA and a 1st and 3rd being a trade we could of made as well.

My focus was on making the team better.....via trade...as it has been said we would do. I realize the season has not started yet....and Its a long season once it starts...
And I guess San Jose doesnt covet their young talent like the Wings do. I am with Babs I am upset we didnt get him... dont ask me who to trade....I never once dropped names like some of you did. your asking me when your all telling me " I am a idiot..." and A furious fan because we didnt get a good player for nothing... Whatever folks...

I also realize that FA starts on Friday. and we have money.... should get a lot of guys. But the question is...... Will we? I reserve the rights to have doubts... But Ill wait till after the holiday weekend.

Being upset that we didn't get Burns (or anyone else), and even more upset that SJ did is one thing. Blaming it on Kenny as if he had complete control of the situation, especially when you have no idea what Kenny did or didn't do, is another. You seem to be under the assumption that we can do whatever we want.

Honestly, you just sound bored. Like you want something to happen just for sake of something happening. Being aggressive doesn't make a team better; being right does. Philly's always been pretty aggressive...where's it gotten them? You can't make moves just to be doing something, and you can't make bad moves just because it seems like a good idea now. Even if Kenny made all the moves you want, it doesn't guarantee a Cup. And if we don't win the Cup, criticizing the moves as failures like people did with Hossa. Even in the best case scenario, we win the Cup, it doesn't end there. Kenny would just have to do it all over again next year. It's like for some people he has to be perfect in order to be considered adequate.

If you look at the deals that were actually made, we would have had to sell the farm to match them. We don't have a young goal scorer on the roster, or a prospect as highly rated as Coyle. We don't have a 21 year-old 50-point scorer, or one of the highest rated prospects (top rated by HF). The #8 overall was worth more than all our picks this year put together. The only way for us to match those deals would be to add more prospects and picks. Some teams wouldn't even want that. Trades aren't like buying something at a store where you offer up the right sum value and the other team automatically accepts. The actual currency matters; some teams would rather have a couple shiny quarters than handful of nickels.

Even if they would, we still have to consider whether it's the right move for us long-term. We're heading into a transition period. Nick, Pav, Hank, Mule, Bert, Homer, Stuart, Kronwall...all either aging or on expiring contracts. Trades could fill a couple holes, but not all of them. Free agency can help too. But you can't build a team that way. We give up all our prospects to fill a couple holes with stars and star salaries, we're left with no way to fill the other holes. In the cap era, you need good, cheap, prospects to round out your team. San Jose has Couture, so Setoguchi became expendable. They're tighter to the cap, so they have fewer options, so for them it makes sense to risk the future to better their odds for a Cup now.

We, on the other hand, could potentially sign three of the top defenseman available. For us, giving up prospects for him makes much less sense. With Carter or Richards we'd have another long-term contract to worry about, maybe a risk we don't want even it if we could have gotten one of them.

We were good enough to compete for the Cup last year, as we have been every single year Holland has been GM. We really only have one hole at the moment, and a lot of cap room to fill that and try to get better...without giving up what few future assets we have.

Trades are fun to talk about and there's some I'd make if I could. But you can't get pissed about something you know nothing about. Speculate all you like, but you don't actually know if any given trade would be accepted. No matter how good it seems to you, unless you've spoken with the GM on the other side you can't say it's possible with the certainty you need in order to justify criticizng Kenny. At least have the respect to save your criticism until you see an offer he turned down or he makes a move you don't like.

[pockets]

LOL I'd bet Kenny had talks with Minny about Burns and possibly the flyers as well.

If I'm a GM looking to trade those players that the Wings missed out on I'd ask:

Burns: Flip (mind you Minny wants more Offensive and Im not a flip hater but Divin Seto provides more O), Tatar, Abby or Helm and a 1st rounder.

Carter: 1st and 2nd rounder and Tatar

What ppl dont seem to realize we dont have a high first rounder to wave in front of ppl's faces a la Columbus. We also lack a true blue chip prospect like Brayden Schenn, so in order for us to make those trades we'd have to give up a bit more. In all honesty if i was looking to trade carter and the wings said they'd give me their first rounder and flip and then the jackets called and said theyd give me Vorachek and their first rounder (which was the 8th pick BTW). Id take the jackets offer every time

[One4TheWings]

It's still early to hit the panic button

This is the most overused statement in these forums. For god's sake people, you are fans of a legacy. The DRW are going to be fine. In Holland We Trust. Come on. So tired of the sky falling every time anything happens.

"Datsyuk chips one into the woods" "OH s***! HE'S LOST HIS MOJO. WE'RE DOOMED."

"Franzen sneezed." "OH NOEZ. FRANZEN HAS THE SUPERFLU THAT WILL KILL 80% OF THE TEAM."

Every year there is panic. Every year it turns out alright. If you lower your expectations of a cup every year, this team and it's talent will be a blast to watch.

[Hockeytown0001]

I feel his pain.

[Heaten]

Being upset that we didn't get Burns (or anyone else), and even more upset that SJ did is one thing. Blaming it on Kenny as if he had complete control of the situation, especially when you have no idea what Kenny did or didn't do, is another. You seem to be under the assumption that we can do whatever we want.

Honestly, you just sound bored. Like you want something to happen just for sake of something happening. Being aggressive doesn't make a team better; being right does. Philly's always been pretty aggressive...where's it gotten them? You can't make moves just to be doing something, and you can't make bad moves just because it seems like a good idea now. Even if Kenny made all the moves you want, it doesn't guarantee a Cup. And if we don't win the Cup, criticizing the moves as failures like people did with Hossa. Even in the best case scenario, we win the Cup, it doesn't end there. Kenny would just have to do it all over again next year. It's like for some people he has to be perfect in order to be considered adequate.

If you look at the deals that were actually made, we would have had to sell the farm to match them. We don't have a young goal scorer on the roster, or a prospect as highly rated as Coyle. We don't have a 21 year-old 50-point scorer, or one of the highest rated prospects (top rated by HF). The #8 overall was worth more than all our picks this year put together. The only way for us to match those deals would be to add more prospects and picks. Some teams wouldn't even want that. Trades aren't like buying something at a store where you offer up the right sum value and the other team automatically accepts. The actual currency matters; some teams would rather have a couple shiny quarters than handful of nickels.

Even if they would, we still have to consider whether it's the right move for us long-term. We're heading into a transition period. Nick, Pav, Hank, Mule, Bert, Homer, Stuart, Kronwall...all either aging or on expiring contracts. Trades could fill a couple holes, but not all of them. Free agency can help too. But you can't build a team that way. We give up all our prospects to fill a couple holes with stars and star salaries, we're left with no way to fill the other holes. In the cap era, you need good, cheap, prospects to round out your team. San Jose has Couture, so Setoguchi became expendable. They're tighter to the cap, so they have fewer options, so for them it makes sense to risk the future to better their odds for a Cup now.

We, on the other hand, could potentially sign three of the top defenseman available. For us, giving up prospects for him makes much less sense. With Carter or Richards we'd have another long-term contract to worry about, maybe a risk we don't want even it if we could have gotten one of them.

We were good enough to compete for the Cup last year, as we have been every single year Holland has been GM. We really only have one hole at the moment, and a lot of cap room to fill that and try to get better...without giving up what few future assets we have.

Trades are fun to talk about and there's some I'd make if I could. But you can't get pissed about something you know nothing about. Speculate all you like, but you don't actually know if any given trade would be accepted. No matter how good it seems to you, unless you've spoken with the GM on the other side you can't say it's possible with the certainty you need in order to justify criticizng Kenny. At least have the respect to save your criticism until you see an offer he turned down or he makes a move you don't like.

Well said. You can't be upset with Holland because he can't pawn scraps for 'gold medal' players. People on this forum have this sense of entitlement like Red Wings are the almighty franchise that GMs across the board are here to serve and fill our needs. Red Wings prospects are raw. Red Wings top six (outside the core) have very little value. Filpulla is our best asset, and frankly, he's just a two-way forward that's never scored 20 goals. Hardly 'gold medal' trade material.

Now had Minny traded Burns for Sharks' Ben Eager and a 4th rounder... then yeah, being pissed at Holland might be justified. However in this deal... this was a pretty damn solid deal for Minny. They got a nice return for Burns.

[Frozen-Man]

Why do people think they need to put words into other peoples mouths???..... I never once thought that Burns for nothing....

Well when a quote from Babcock says something to the effect of “They just hit a home run,” “That’s a gold medal pick. I’m pissed off.”
That kinda tells me that Holland had the ability...just not the willingness to go ahead and pull the trigger!

Speaking of putting words is someones mouth. . .

[pucktividi]

Every year there is panic. Every year it turns out alright. If you lower your expectations of a cup every year, this team and it's talent will be a blast to watch.

+1 for the post

Was always slightly optimistic about the Wings winning the Cup,but with $16M to play at the 1st of July they'd better dress a team that the rest of the league will be feared of

[Hockeytown_Ryan]

Speaking of putting words is someones mouth. . .

that was a direct quote actually....

funny really... Thats all that anyone saw.....most of that was about picks and being an agressive GM and that is all anyone saw.




Burns (in my opinion) was just the final shoe to drop that got Babs angry.. seeing Carter to CLB for rights to a RFA and a 1st and 3rd being a trade we could of made as well.

My focus was on making the team better.....via trade...as it has been said we would do. I realize the season has not started yet....and Its a long season once it starts...
And I guess San Jose doesnt covet their young talent like the Wings do. I am with Babs I am upset we didnt get him... dont ask me who to trade....I never once dropped names like some of you did. your asking me when your all telling me " I am a idiot..." and A furious fan because we didnt get a good player for nothing... Whatever folks...

I also realize that FA starts on Friday. and we have money.... should get a lot of guys. But the question is...... Will we? I reserve the rights to have doubts... But Ill wait till after the holiday weekend.

You didn't answer me, so I'll repeat the question: what package could we have offered that would have been more attractive than that which the Sharks presented?

yes I did.. you did not read very well.....

[Frozen-Man]

that was a direct quote actually....

Not really, you took the quote but then attributed that quote to say things that were not said in that quote. Babs said "[t]hat's a gold medal pick[,]" also that San Jose "hit a home run" however, nowhere does Babcock say:

Holland had the ability...just not the willingness to go ahead and pull the trigger!

Nor does anything that Babcock said mean:

which means No body wants Hudler and Flip is off limits.... no trades get done to better our selves we must rely on Free Agency...

Nowhere does Babcock say or even indicate that he is upset with Kenny in any way, or that Kenny had a reasonable deal he could have made or even any deal at all that he could have made. Nor does he say that Kenny just didn't have the willingness to pull the trigger on such a deal. Additionally, nothing he said mean "No body [sic]wants Hudler and Flip is off limits.... no trades get done to better our selves we must rely on Free Agency..." You put those words into Babcock's mouth when he could easily have just been paying a complement to Burns or San Jose in saying that he is pissed that the team that knocked us out of the playoffs the last two years got Burns without the statement having anything to do with Kenny did or did not do; or should or should not have done; or could or could not have done.

[Heaten]

Babcock is pissed that Holland didn't work is voodoo magic and acquire Bieska for a box of snot rags. News at 11!!

[Hockeytown_Ryan]

Not really, you took the quote but then attributed that quote to say things that were not said in that quote. Babs said "[t]hat's a gold medal pick[,]" also that San Jose "hit a home run" however, nowhere does Babcock say:



Nor does anything that Babcock said mean:



Nowhere does Babcock say or even indicate that he is upset with Kenny in any way, or that Kenny had a reasonable deal he could have made or even any deal at all that he could have made. Nor does he say that Kenny just didn't have the willingness to pull the trigger on such a deal. Additionally, nothing he said mean "No body [sic]wants Hudler and Flip is off limits.... no trades get done to better our selves we must rely on Free Agency..." You put those words into Babcock's mouth when he could easily have just been paying a complement to Burns or San Jose in saying that he is pissed that the team that knocked us out of the playoffs the last two years got Burns without the statement having anything to do with Kenny did or did not do; or should or should not have done; or could or could not have done.

I never added anything into the quote.. Those were my thoughts...not his! if you thought those were Babcocks quotes... YOU made the mistake.

by the way... reaching just to add to the "pile on" party..... are you that bored?

Babcock is pissed that Holland didn't work is voodoo magic and acquire Bieska for a box of snot rags. News at 11!!

Bummer!

[Crymson]

yes I did.. you did not read very well.....

Saying "I won't suggest anything because you'll just call me stupid!" is a very convenient way of avoiding putting your money where your mouth is. You have complained that Holland did not pull the trigger, yet you refuse to list what you feel would have been an offer capable of beating San Jose's.

[Frozen-Man]

I never added anything into the quote.. Those were my thoughts...not his! if you thought those were Babcocks quotes... YOU made the mistake.

by the way... reaching just to add to the "pile on" party..... are you that bored?



Bummer!

I never thought they were Babcock's quotes and I don't really think you thought I did. My point was you were pissed because Kenny didn't get Burns and then tried to twist what Babcock said into somehow being in agreement with you opinion when nothing in his quote gives any indication that he is pissed with how Kenny acted regarding Burns. . . Thus you were in essence putting words into his mouth.

[Konnan511]

All this fuss over brent Burns huh. The guy is severely over-rated. He entered the league on some pretty good Wild teams and then the past 3 season has continually been average with one of the worst +/-s of all the defensemen on the team while being extremely injury prone. Hell, nick Schultz is 3 years older and I'd take him over Burns any day of the week.

Wings wouldn't have been able to offer the Wild anything substantial. The Sharks had to dramatically overpay for Burns, something that Holland just doesn't do. To get Burns it would have cost the Wings, Smith, Filppula a first and probably Helm. Would you make that deal for Burns? I sure as hell wouldn't.

[Hockeytown_Ryan]

Saying "I won't suggest anything because you'll just call me stupid!" is a very convenient way of avoiding putting your money where your mouth is. You have complained that Holland did not pull the trigger, yet you refuse to list what you feel would have been an offer capable of beating San Jose's.

He does not trade roster players... So I guess there was no offer to turn down or make, right! is that what you want me to say?
because outside of flaming me you have not added anything to suggest that I was wrong.

no post from you with evidence that your right and I am wrong, just your opinion. (which is what we are here for)
alot of speculation here of what Minn. would of wanted from us...truth is no one knows, (must work for Minn. Wild and know this stuff) Your speculation is your opinion.

and so it's clear.. Burns is not the only deal I was talking about. It just seems that's the only one you want to talk about.

ever stop to think that maybe...just maybe San Jose over paid! guess not ...just easier to jump on someone who thinks differently then you do.

[Crymson]

He does not trade roster players... So I guess there was no offer to turn down or make, right! is that what you want me to say?
because outside of flaming me you have not added anything to suggest that I was wrong.

no post from you with evidence that your right and I am wrong, just your opinion. (which is what we are here for)
alot of speculation here of what Minn. would of wanted from us...truth is no one knows, (must work for Minn. Wild and know this stuff) Your speculation is your opinion.

and so it's clear.. Burns is not the only deal I was talking about. It just seems that's the only one you want to talk about.

ever stop to think that maybe...just maybe San Jose over paid! guess not ...just easier to jump on someone who thinks differently then you do.

You're copping out. You're angry that Holland didn't get Burns. I'll ask you again: what should he have offered? What could he have offered that would have one-upped San Jose?

Where have I said anything about me being right and you being wrong? I've only asked you a question that you're refusing to answer. In effect, you've voiced your complaint that Holland did not trade for Burns, and now you're refusing to elaborate upon what you think he could have offered that would have succeeded.

Yes, I DO think that San Jose overpaid. Since you've complained so vocally, however, I've got to think that you feel Holland should have offered enough to land Burns. I'm still curious what you would have had him offer. There. Now I've asked three times in the same thread.

Also, bear in mind that you've no clue if he made an offer or not.

Edited by Crymson, 28 June 2011 - 07:06 PM.