• Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

Sign in to follow this  
Dimaline312000

Are the Wings Prospects Over-ripe?

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

Last night while watching Round 1 of the 2011 NHL Entry Draft one of the Vs Commentators was talking about Pittsburgh as they were making their selection (23rd). I forget who it was but one of them said that the Pens like to do what the Red Wings do and keep their prospects over-ripe. I took a little offense to that however I couldn't really dispute it to much. The Wings like to bring their young guys up early that's for sure and I do think that's the right thing to do but do we leave them down in Juniors or Minors to long making them Over-Ripe? Like I said I agree with it but I also believe the Wings are doing the right thing by leaving them down their to develop their skills and it gives the roster depth throught the organization. What is everyone's thoughts??

Edited by Dimaline312000

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If they were over-ripe, it would mean they were getting worse. That happened to Stefan Liv. He was the best goalie not in the NHL; had he been brought over sooner he might be the Wings' starter right now, now Howard.

The Wings keep their prospects in the minors until they're able to take an NHL job, or until they can't keep them any longer. Mattias Ritola is an excellent example. He wasn't going to make the team, and would have been lost on waivers. So instead, Holland traded him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If they were over-ripe, it would mean they were getting worse. That happened to Stefan Liv. He was the best goalie not in the NHL; had he been brought over sooner he might be the Wings' starter right now, now Howard.

The Wings keep their prospects in the minors until they're able to take an NHL job, or until they can't keep them any longer. Mattias Ritola is an excellent example. He wasn't going to make the team, and would have been lost on waivers. So instead, Holland traded him.

The Lightning did pick Ritola up on waivers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course they are over ripened by other teams standards.

Unless you are a make a difference now rookie, you will not see the Wings roster for a couple of years.

The fact that Holland thinks Smith is ready now, astonishes me.

You can look at it two ways really:

Other teams don't have the luxury of not adding rookies to their roster. Lots of guys like Cleary could have used over ripening in the AHL. But due to the team that drafted him he had to make an impact right away. Granted he was a very good player in Juniors, and a high pick but still. I think Tyler Sequin could have the same problems. He wasn't ready, coach was not a big fan of him, and now his confidence should be damaged. However for him he tore it up in the playoffs so that may help.

Or you can look at it as the Wings have been so successful in the last 20 years they just don't draft high enough to get immediate impact players.

Either way to me it appears to be working, so it is all good with me, until the team misses the playoffs and is not competitive for the cup multiple years in a row. I am happy with what they are doing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course they are over ripened by other teams standards.

Unless you are a make a difference now rookie, you will not see the Wings roster for a couple of years.

The fact that Holland thinks Smith is ready now, astonishes me.

You can look at it two ways really:

Other teams don't have the luxury of not adding rookies to their roster. Lots of guys like Cleary could have used over ripening in the AHL. But due to the team that drafted him he had to make an impact right away. Granted he was a very good player in Juniors, and a high pick but still. I think Tyler Sequin could have the same problems. He wasn't ready, coach was not a big fan of him, and now his confidence should be damaged. However for him he tore it up in the playoffs so that may help.

Or you can look at it as the Wings have been so successful in the last 20 years they just don't draft high enough to get immediate impact players.

Either way to me it appears to be working, so it is all good with me, until the team misses the playoffs and is not competitive for the cup multiple years in a row. I am happy with what they are doing.

See for the most part that is how I feel. By other teams standards maybe our prospects are over-ripe but in my honest opnion this is the type of system that we have had for a long time and it works for us. I'm not worried about what they said I just wanted to know what everyone thought. I do think the Wings need to start looking at the prospects more for call-ups and players that have been down for a while to make the NHL team but I think this is the best system for us and that is what the Wings should stick with doing.

Edited by Dimaline312000

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i dont really think thats the case. its not as if the wings have players in the ahl or europe that are dominating their league and obviously need to be in the nhl. because the wings rarely get the chance to draft top end talent, the players in the system need more time to improve. obviously it helps having a deep nhl team, but lets be honest, its not like kindl would be top 4 on other teams, or that mursak is top 6 material for nhl teams right now. these guys are brought up slow for good reason.

i think there are a couple good examples of players that were nhl ready like quincey. he was someone that benefited from being thrown in the deep end and developed into a solid nhl player. but even the leino situation wasn't an overripe scenario. he got his chance. he just didn't fit here or wasn't motivated. it took the change of scenery to get him in gear.

we all love to talk up wings prospects that excite us. but every team has prospects they are excited about. and the funny thing, is with the wings always finding diamonds in the rough, you never know when a 7th round pick, waiver pickup, or undrafted free agent ends up being the next steal for the team. so while we all hate to see smith, tatar, or anyone else not in the winged wheel, a lot of times its for the best.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest CaliWingsNut

Doesn`t over-ripe turn into rotten? :P

It just means we keep everyone until their soft, sugary, old, and easy to brake. :rolleyes:

Edited by CaliWingsNut

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i do see this as a bit of "cause and effect." we don't draft until late in the first or many late picks. the only way to make sure one of those guys is ready is to look at them over time. of course if we drafted top 5 we would have younger guys moving up sooner, but the fact of the matter is, holland doesn't want a "maybe" player in our top 12 and all we get lately is "maybe" players due to our draft positions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You can declare some players being overripe sure, but for the most part this theory that Kenny Holland has been using has worked and is the mold other organizations are implementing now. It's a huge deal with maturity levels in some of these younger sub-par performing organizations. They take their early round draft picks, let them MAYBE play one year in the and minors, some immediately come to the NHL and now they're dealing with inner locker room turmoil because of the lack of maturity and leadership. If i'm a GM of a professional team look for the future, you don't need success immediately and this minute, let the pieces fall into place and i'm positive you'll love where you're at later down the road.

EDIT: *im not only talking about physical maturity levels in players, i'm also referring to the maturity level of their gameplay and teamwork. overall maturity*

Edited by evilzyme

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it's a fine line to know when a player is ready to make the jump from Junior or College into Minors into the NHL. I think the Wings walk that line a lot but they know where it is and are able to recognize when to bring a player up. I'll admit I'm one of the people that LOVES to play Coach or GM and that's why I play Be A GM Mode on the EA Sports NHL Games, but that's why I'm a fan and not working in the orgainzation. Being able to watch a player grow and develop really is the best way to tell when they are ready to make the jump to the NHL Roster. You can call it over-ripe or not but for the Red Wings I think it's the best possible choice for this team. It's up to other teams what they do with their players; Wings do what's best for the Organization and I support it Fully. I may not always agree with it but I do Support it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i do see this as a bit of "cause and effect." we don't draft until late in the first or many late picks. the only way to make sure one of those guys is ready is to look at them over time. of course if we drafted top 5 we would have younger guys moving up sooner, but the fact of the matter is, holland doesn't want a "maybe" player in our top 12 and all we get lately is "maybe" players due to our draft positions.

This. I'd add that we've been blessed with hard working, talented vets who have the gift of longevity. It would be a silly move to replace a multiple cup winning plugger whose game is still on with an unproven kid who will benefit more from the minutes played in the AHL (sadly, it seems these days are drawing to an end).

Regarding Ericsson, I know GMR was making half a joke, but I have to chime in. As much hate as Big Rig takes on these boards, he's a great example of why the Red Wings system works. This kid was the last person drafted in 2002, and he played his first full season in the NHL in 2009. He may not have (definitely didn't) pan out to be a star, but for the last kid picked on the playground, he's done incredibly well for himself. Many teams would today pick him for their bottom pairing in a heartbeat. In fact, I'd venture that on a team asking for more of a physical presence of him, he'd flourish. Not bad for a kid who was one pick away from being a walk on.

EDIT: stupid run on sentences.

Edited by Uncle Danny

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course they are over ripened by other teams standards.

Unless you are a make a difference now rookie, you will not see the Wings roster for a couple of years.

The fact that Holland thinks Smith is ready now, astonishes me.

You can look at it two ways really:

Other teams don't have the luxury of not adding rookies to their roster. Lots of guys like Cleary could have used over ripening in the AHL. But due to the team that drafted him he had to make an impact right away. Granted he was a very good player in Juniors, and a high pick but still. I think Tyler Sequin could have the same problems. He wasn't ready, coach was not a big fan of him, and now his confidence should be damaged. However for him he tore it up in the playoffs so that may help.

Or you can look at it as the Wings have been so successful in the last 20 years they just don't draft high enough to get immediate impact players.

Either way to me it appears to be working, so it is all good with me, until the team misses the playoffs and is not competitive for the cup multiple years in a row. I am happy with what they are doing.

Seguin could have used a year or two in the A. But at the same time, he was ready to play in the NHL right away, which most picks, even first rounders, aren't. His biggest problem was that his coach didn't like his game so he had limited opportunity and often wasn't trusted in situations when he would normally be playing. He'll likely add some size and power over the next few years, and with his playoff performance it's hard to justify keeping him down so much.

With the Wings you have to watch that process with guys like Emmerton, who probably would have been up by 2008-09 in most systems but wasn't really ready until last year, and there was no way he was making that team. Hudler is probably the closest example the Wings have to Seguin; he made the Wings right out of juniors, but even though he played well they only kept him up for 12 games that year, he played a full year in the A during the lockout, and 4 games in Detroit the next season. Seguin would have done well to have spent this year in the A, but if I'm him I'll take a Stanley Cup win as a spare part and fewer individual accomplishments over my career instead of a long career of greatness without a Cup win. Would you rather have the career of Tomas Kopecky or Marcel Dionne? One of them won two Cups in three years and just recently developed into a top-six forward, the other is one of the greatest players ever, but never won a Cup.

Does anyone think "pissed off" and "Burns" shouldn't be in a sentence together?

<_<

Maybe that's WHY...

See more the most part that is how I feel. By other teams standards maybe our prospects are over-ripe but in my honest opnion this is the type of system that we have had for a long time and it works for us. I'm not worried about what they said I just wanted to know what everyone thought. I do think the Wings need to start looking at the prospects more for call-ups and players that have been down for a while to make the NHL team but I think this is the best system for us and that is what the Wings should stick with doing.

There is no "catch-all" system that works for every prospect. Some guys develop better in the AHL and some in the NHL, even if they have the same skills and game and everything. For one, I think Hudler would be much further along if he had been kept on the big club right away because it's pretty clear from last season that his development and improvement is much greater in the NHL than in lower leagues. He regressed in the KHL, and by the end of the season he was playing better than he was when he left. Jimmy Howard is another guy like that. He didn't seem to be improving much, and was brought on as Ozzie's backup because the Wings had invested so much time in him and he couldn't be sent down. He was expected to be a decent backup, and he instead took the reins when Osgood when out and was one of the league's better goalies.

Ericsson is over-ripe?

:blink:

The Wings were lucky Ericsson ever made it to the AHL given his draft rank. He's got all of this hype around him, but realistically he's probably like Lebda - as good as he's going to get.

Edited by eva unit zero

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Last night while watching Round 1 of the 2011 NHL Entry Draft one of the Vs Commentators was talking about Pittsburgh as they were making their selection (23rd). I forget who it was but one of them said that the Pens like to do what the Red Wings do and keep their prospects over-ripe. I took a little offense to that however I couldn't really dispute it to much. The Wings like to bring their young guys up early that's for sure and I do think that's the right thing to do but do we leave them down in Juniors or Minors to long making them Over-Ripe? Like I said I agree with it but I also believe the Wings are doing the right thing by leaving them down their to develop their skills and it gives the roster depth throught the organization. What is everyone's thoughts??

Ken Holland was actually quoted using the over-ripe description for our players. I don't know if this is the actual article I read it in but when I googled this one came up.

My link

The Red Wings like prospects to become “over ripe” - as general manager Ken Holland says – in the minors before getting a chance to play a lot for them in the regular season.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Every player is different. If they do better by getting called up earlier, they would be.

Some need more time, and some lose interest if they dominate too much at a lower level. We really haven't had anyone like that in a while. Tatar could be that, maybe Smith if he isn't up this year.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Over course they're over-ripe. When you have talented third-pair defensemen like Jonathon Ericcson you're bound to stay down in the minors. It would take years to learn how to generate turnovers and be as generally ineffective as Ericcson is.

Edited by Holmstrom96

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Every player is different. If they do better by getting called up earlier, they would be.

Some need more time, and some lose interest if they dominate too much at a lower level. We really haven't had anyone like that in a while. Tatar could be that, maybe Smith if he isn't up this year.

Tatar would have to start dominating the AHL first. He's doing well there but he's not one of the top players. And the league's top scorer last year (Corey Locke) was just four points shy of doubling his total. The league goals leader (Colin McDonald) was only three goals shy of having more goals than Tatar did points.

So domination? No.

What's noticeable is that Locke, Jason Krog, Darren Haydar, and Keith Aucoin HAVE been dominating the league and nobody even gives them a chance at the NHL level. I'm assuming it's because they are all smaller than average, but I'd take a team of Brian Gionta at forward and Francois Boullion on defense if they won every game. People who say size matters are wrong. Size CAN matter. Skill also outweighs size.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this