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#41 FlashyG

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 01:35 AM

You rarely trade away someone who is playing well for you unless there are contract issues or he requests a trade. Most trades involve prospects or usually productive players that are struggling in the hopes that they will regain their form with new scenery and teammates.

 

Almost all the biggest trades since the salary cap was instituted have involved a bunch of prospects for an established star, or a bunch of draft picks for an established star. Its rare for very good established players to move both ways.

 

Ericsson isn't good enough to bring in a bunch of prospects, so he's not really trade bait. If the Wings were going to make a deal for talent, it would likely mean moving someone like Sproul/Ouelette/Jurco/Tatar/Nyquist/Sheahan/Jarnkrok etc... Depending on who we moved I could live with that, but not for Sproul, I consider him untouchable. 



#42 Richdg

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 11:16 AM

You rarely trade away someone who is playing well for you unless there are contract issues or he requests a trade. Most trades involve prospects or usually productive players that are struggling in the hopes that they will regain their form with new scenery and teammates.

 

Almost all the biggest trades since the salary cap was instituted have involved a bunch of prospects for an established star, or a bunch of draft picks for an established star. Its rare for very good established players to move both ways.

 

Ericsson isn't good enough to bring in a bunch of prospects, so he's not really trade bait. If the Wings were going to make a deal for talent, it would likely mean moving someone like Sproul/Ouelette/Jurco/Tatar/Nyquist/Sheahan/Jarnkrok etc... Depending on who we moved I could live with that, but not for Sproul, I consider him untouchable. 

But in the end, you have to give to recieve. We don't have much to give, that is the problem. The number of truely tradable assets on our team/in our organization is very many.



#43 FlashyG

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 01:50 PM

But in the end, you have to give to recieve. We don't have much to give, that is the problem. The number of truely tradable assets on our team/in our organization is very many.

 

You are contradicting yourself...You say we don't have much to give and then follow it up by saying that we have very many truly tradeable assets.

 

I assume you meant we don't have much to trade but I disagree, we have a ton of valuable prospects that would be interesting to other teams, by my count we have at least 15 that would be of interest, not to mention all of our draft picks.



#44 Johnz96

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 04:45 PM

Sproul has scored 4 goals and 17 points in 7 games so far in February



#45 Richdg

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 05:44 PM

You are contradicting yourself...You say we don't have much to give and then follow it up by saying that we have very many truly tradeable assets.

 

I assume you meant we don't have much to trade but I disagree, we have a ton of valuable prospects that would be interesting to other teams, by my count we have at least 15 that would be of interest, not to mention all of our draft picks.

ya missed the n't in there. not the greatest typist in the world. as for trading drft picks, hell no! This draft is the deepest since 2003, we need to pick up picks, not trade them away. Most of the draft sites are talking this draft is 90-100 players deep that are legit prospects. I would love to see us with 5 picks in the top 90. We have 3, just need 2 more, which we could do by moving a couple of guys, and not suffer for it.

as for prospects, I count 10, but that is my opinion vs yours, no biggie. The bigger question is, do we have many stars in there, and how many spots to we need to refill on the varisty club. History shows only 1 out of 5 draft pciks ever play 200+ games in the NHL, which also says we have 2 or 3 guys that will make it in our system, and even with 5 picks in the upcomign draft, we may only add 1 more. But that is the current world of the NHL, you have to have young cheap players to free up cash for stars.



#46 FlashyG

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:29 AM

If you're not willing to trade draft picks how do you expect to add a "Star' to this team since from your posting history, you don't think the Wings have any in their prospect pool.

 

Star for Star trades don't happen and we're not going to blow up the team to get a top 5 pick, so other than moving a bunch of high end prospects or giving up a bunch of draft picks we aren't making a big trade.

 

Personally I agree that we shouldn't be trading prospects or Draft picks, but I don't see the need to trade at all other than getting rid of some of our extra pieces to make room for Tatar and Nyquist when everyone is healthy.

 

I think we still have a few years with Datsyuk and several with Zetterberg so if we could get a coach willing to give some of the young guys some ice-time we should have no trouble developing the next generation of Red Wing Stars.



#47 Richdg

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 09:31 AM

If you're not willing to trade draft picks how do you expect to add a "Star' to this team since from your posting history, you don't think the Wings have any in their prospect pool.

 

Star for Star trades don't happen and we're not going to blow up the team to get a top 5 pick, so other than moving a bunch of high end prospects or giving up a bunch of draft picks we aren't making a big trade.

 

Personally I agree that we shouldn't be trading prospects or Draft picks, but I don't see the need to trade at all other than getting rid of some of our extra pieces to make room for Tatar and Nyquist when everyone is healthy.

 

I think we still have a few years with Datsyuk and several with Zetterberg so if we could get a coach willing to give some of the young guys some ice-time we should have no trouble developing the next generation of Red Wing Stars.

I don't think we have in future stars at forward. I think Mraz could be one at G in 2 years or so, and there are a couple of legit potential stars in the D corps.

In this years draft we should be able to get a star player, baring something tragic. keep in mind Getzlef was a 19th pick or so (last 1/3 of the draft) and we should be around 15th this year. So we do have the chance to load up, and is we draft well, we could get a 1983 type draft. In 83 we got Yzerman in the 1st, lambert-20 goals per year in the second, probert in the 3rd (who also was good for 1 goal every 4th game for many years as well as the baddest a$$ in the game), Klima in the 5th (yes he was a 1st rounder that no one drafted because they didn't know if they could get him out), Kocur in the 5th-another alltime bad a$$ and could score 10-15 goals per year, and just for fun, Grimson late. So out of one draft we got 4 20+ goal scorers and 3 of the all time tough guys. Take the same type of class and add it to our team now, it would completely transform us within 24 months.



#48 Count Willis

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 01:21 PM

Updated stats for Sproul 39 gp 59 pts 18 goals. ridiculous, lets just get the kid to GR before we think of trading him



#49 FlashyG

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 02:11 PM

I don't think we have in future stars at forward. I think Mraz could be one at G in 2 years or so, and there are a couple of legit potential stars in the D corps.

In this years draft we should be able to get a star player, baring something tragic. keep in mind Getzlef was a 19th pick or so (last 1/3 of the draft) and we should be around 15th this year. So we do have the chance to load up, and is we draft well, we could get a 1983 type draft. In 83 we got Yzerman in the 1st, lambert-20 goals per year in the second, probert in the 3rd (who also was good for 1 goal every 4th game for many years as well as the baddest a$$ in the game), Klima in the 5th (yes he was a 1st rounder that no one drafted because they didn't know if they could get him out), Kocur in the 5th-another alltime bad a$$ and could score 10-15 goals per year, and just for fun, Grimson late. So out of one draft we got 4 20+ goal scorers and 3 of the all time tough guys. Take the same type of class and add it to our team now, it would completely transform us within 24 months.

 

It took those guys 4 years to transform the 2nd worst team in the league into a team that finally won a playoff series.

 

On this current roster it would probably take a minimum of 4 years for all those guys to even make the Red Wings. For all we know we already had a monster of a draft in 2011 with Ouellet, Sproul, Tvrdon, Jurco, Backman and Marchenko.

 

It wouldn't matter where the Wings drafted, no matter who they picked, there would likely be a thread within a few hours where you'd tell us that they aren't a future star and that we should trade Datsyuk and Zetterberg for 2 first round picks to try again.



#50 Richdg

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 03:53 PM

It took those guys 4 years to transform the 2nd worst team in the league into a team that finally won a playoff series.

 

On this current roster it would probably take a minimum of 4 years for all those guys to even make the Red Wings. For all we know we already had a monster of a draft in 2011 with Ouellet, Sproul, Tvrdon, Jurco, Backman and Marchenko.

 

It wouldn't matter where the Wings drafted, no matter who they picked, there would likely be a thread within a few hours where you'd tell us that they aren't a future star and that we should trade Datsyuk and Zetterberg for 2 first round picks to try again.

Not sure what you are trying to say here? That I don't give credit? Nothing could be further from the trueth. But in the end it has nothing to do with what nay of us think. It all comes down to on the ice production. The only way to KNOW is to play. I am all for playing young guys so we can fine out if they can play. There is no reason for Nyquist to be in GR. He can play at the AHL level. We all know that. Can he play at the NHL level? None of us know. Play him, then we all know for sure.

As for development time, it varies greatly for each player. There are  bunch of 19 and 20 years olds that make it into the NHL each year. Many factors come into this, but to say any draft pcik is 3 or 4 or 5 years away is incorrect. Most guys take a few years, that is true.

One other thing. In 83 there was no talent on the RW's. Now there is some. We have 2-3 stars and another 5-6 legit everyday players. far cry from 83. That atkes the pressure off of the new draftee's.


Edited by Richdg, 20 February 2013 - 03:55 PM.


#51 FlashyG

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 01:22 AM

There was a "Huge Number" of Red Wings staff at tonights game between London and Sault Ste. Marie.

 

They could have been there scouting for the draft but its also possible they were getting a look at Sproul playing against the best team in the OHL to guage his abilities defensively. I doubt they'd use an emergency call up on him, but its not completely out of the question considering how much he's destroying the OHL this year and the current state of our defence.

 

London won the game 4-3 in OT but Sproul finished the game +1 with an assist.



#52 FlashyG

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 02:20 AM

This is a quote from Hockey Prospects director of scouting and full time scout Mark Edwards. He has managed to make me even more excited about Sproul and his transition into the NHL.

 

I coached Ryan for a short time before he went to the OHL. His high-end potential was obvious to me. What I wanted to see was a bigger commitment to working harder in all facets of his game and not just when he had a chance to score.

If you can believe it, he went to the Greyhounds camp in early summer prior to his NHL draft year and they barely acknowledged him. Ryan was a bit down. It wasn't until the Soo learned of the U of Michigan showing major interest that he got back on the Hounds radar. When we signed him with the Vaughan Vipers we knew it was going to be a very short stay. He was a kid who wanted to go the OHL route. I actually wanted him to go that route as well, but wanted him to get a fair deal from the Greyhounds. If they invested heavily, I knew they would be more apt to give him a real shot.

When he went to The OHL I saw a big change in his work ethic. He didn't get the power play time that I thought he deserved, which is one reason he was under the radar a bit until later in the season. I had an advantage. I had coached him during on ice sessions for a full summer, through a main camp and into regular season practices and games. I had the control to put him through drills. It was fun to watch him blast away one-timers in a PP drill I would run. He scored on a one-timer in one of our early season wins. It was an absolute cannon.

I was asked a dozen times on radio and even once on TV for a sleeper pick during his draft year. Early in the year most of the people asking me didn't know who I was even talking about when I answered with Ryan Sproul. As the season went on, more people knew the name when I gave the answer. He had started to get some ice-time and made the most of it.

I measured Ryan myself in August of his NHL Draft season. He was a hair under 6'4" and 187 pounds. He is much stronger now. I was at the game in London last night and saw him pre-game. His legs are huge now compared to that day I measured him a couple of years ago. Same goes for his upper body.

IMO Ryan could step into a spot on an NHL power play tonight and look great. He has natural instincts in that area of his game. He still needs to grow on the D side of the puck (FYI, I speak about his game with him on occasion, as recently as post-game last night. He knows his game) Ryan has improved a TON as a defender over the last two years. I can tell you that the Red Wings staff I have spoken to about him, see him much like I do at this point. He is a stud on the PP who still has work to do defensively, but is improving all the time. Much like me, they think his potential his very high. They don't seem too concerned at all about the occasional pond hockey type play in his game. The fact is, he can pull it off right now so they let him. 

There were a ton of Wings staffers in London last night, Ryan was aware they were there. I saw the Wings Director of Scouting Joe McDonnell (great guy by the way) speak to Ryan in the pre-game. IMO Ryan played his typical game. He looked like a man amongst boys when he lugged the puck, but made a few mistakes in his own zone. He needs to be a bit more physical IMO, not necessarily hitting guys all over the ice but just pinning and containing better. I coached Pietrangelo for a short time also, Ryan and Petro remind me of each other in a few areas, including that physical aspect area. Petro has improved a ton in that area.

You won't hear the word "AHL" out of Ryan right now. He is focused on the Hounds and is very excited about the playoffs as he has not been in them before. I'm hoping the Hounds play Kitchener as I think it would be a great matchup. one I'd like to watch.

We (HP) ended up ranking Ryan at the bottom of the first round. It was not a favour because I had coached him. In fact looking back now, we should have had him a bit higher. It was obvious he had elite PP talent, was a fantastic skater and it didn't hurt that he was 6'4". All our scouts who saw him, liked him.

I was sitting with Ryan and his family etc.. at the draft as he slid into the deep 2nd round. Right before the Red Wings selected him I said "This is where the Red Wings get another steal." I think Ryan is proving they made a great pick. What a great 2nd round the Wings had that year.

As for Team Canada, I was in contact with Ryan quite a bit while he was in Calgary. He was happy to be selected to camp and obviously disappointed when he was cut. It didn't take a rocket scientist to connect Murphy to the head coach. Everyone knew Ryan was up against it going into camp. Unlike some, I like Murphy but felt Sproul had outplayed him during both the season and in camp. I will say that I have been shocked by Murphy's play this season. I'm not alone scout wise.

I'm going to go watch the Soo again on Sunday vs Mississauga (mostly for 2013 guys of course) and I'll see the Soo a few more times this year. I'll post back here if there is anything I think is worth noting on him.
 


#53 RedWingCraig

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 03:41 PM

Would be nice if he came to camp in the fall near 200 pounds



#54 FlashyG

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 05:08 PM

Sproul is playing center tonight due to a suspension to one of the Greyhounds forwards.

 

I've very interested to see how this goes.



#55 Richdg

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 12:44 PM

Sproul is playing center tonight due to a suspension to one of the Greyhounds forwards.

 

I've very interested to see how this goes.

How did he do? any stats or reviews?



#56 FlashyG

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 03:30 PM

He only played 1 game at C as far as I know and finished with 1A, and +1 in a shootout loss.

 

From what I read he wasn't spectacular as a C, and is far more effective playing his normal position.

 

Since then he's put up a handful of assists and has a 5pt lead in scoring by defence, despite playing about 20 fewer games than the guy in 2nd.



#57 Richdg

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 04:32 PM

He only played 1 game at C as far as I know and finished with 1A, and +1 in a shootout loss.

 

From what I read he wasn't spectacular as a C, and is far more effective playing his normal position.

 

Since then he's put up a handful of assists and has a 5pt lead in scoring by defence, despite playing about 20 fewer games than the guy in 2nd.

The really nice part is, once we sign dekeyser, would could be 12 deep on the blueline: Kronwall, Ericsson, Quincey, Kindl, Lashoff, Smith, Nicastro, dekeyser, Oullett, Sproul, De Haas, and marchenko. i didn't even mention McKee in this group-still hoping he moves to LW where his toughness would be better used and less of a liability. But 12 deep is really cool!







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