Holland Appreciation Thread

[Guest Heaten]

delete

Edited July 1, 2011 by Heaten

[Shaman 713]

This thread is full of fail and should be locked. It's a cesspool.

Its knee jerk, but, you can't say you love the signing.

[ShanahanMan 473]

Yep.

Tonight marks the very first time, literally, that I've started to question whether or not Holland still has what it takes to be the Wings GM. I've defended him when the armchair jokers pissed and moaned time and time again. I've rarely questioned his deals. I've heaped him with a lot of praise.

But the last few years, my enthusiasm little by little has waned, and tonight, I'm really wondering for the first time if Holland's effectiveness as Wings GM has had it's run. I hope he proves himself as I've got nothing against the guy and I still believe he's fully capable of being a great GM (here if not elsewhere in the league), but this deal just

really has floored me. When you're the Wings and you've watched this guy play sloppy, sloppy hockey the last couple years, when you've seen his already weak mental game deteriorate more than it's improved, you don't sign him to a 3 year deal worth almost $10 million. If he thinks he's worth that and even if he is worth that on the open market, you let him walk.

You just got done signing Jimmy Howard to a 2-year deal

worth $4.5 million! As bad of a deal as Ericsson's is, it's doubly bad for the message it sends to other players. The standard it sets is far more appalling than even the terrible deal itself. You ice a team that's weaker for a year (or until trades) before you give Jonathon Ericsson $3.25 million a year.

I just don't think there's any way around it; this is a horrible deal. Even if Ericsson improves and earns every penny of it and some, it doesn't change the fact that on the day he signed it, he had done nothing to deserve it while doing plenty to warrant getting the boot from this club. That standard will hang in the air, and I don't like it at all.

This was a mistake, a very big mistake.

Awesome post bud.

[Guest Heaten]

Its knee jerk, but, you can't say you love the signing.

I am reserving judgement at this point. The salary cap increase has really thrown a monkey wrench in this offseason. Teams are now able to afford to retain players (even overpay). This offseason is a defensemen's market.

I trust Ericsson didn't get a NMC and Holland explained to Ericsson that he will be traded if he doesn't flourish. I don't think this is a sign and trade, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Holland packaging Ericsson up come Feb/March if he doesn't improve, and fetch a great return. Then this thread will be bumped and the OP (and members participating) will look like total dip s***s..

Jm2c

Edited July 1, 2011 by Heaten

[Shaman 713]

I am reserving judgement at this point. The salary cap increase has really thrown a monkey wrench in this offseason. Teams are now able to afford to retain players (even overpay). This offseason is a defensemen's market.

I trust Ericsson didn't get a NMC and Holland explained to Ericsson that he will be traded if he doesn't flourish. I don't think this is a sign and trade, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Holland packaging Ericsson up come Feb/March if he doesn't improve, and fetch a great return. Then this thread will be bumped and the OP (and members participating) will look like total dip s***s..

Jm2c

Sure, but if there is a NTC or a NMC or he doesn't get better this thread will be a huge 'I told you so'. My issue is that with everyone bitching about possibly overpaying a defenseman on the open market, Holland goes and does it with Ericsson. Ericsson isn't Lebda, and he can turn into a top 4 guy, but again the question is "Is Holland paying for what he might become" if so, there is a chance he will get burned. I just hope that Holland comes out of this looking good.

[dropkickshanahans 463]

The more I think about it, the more I think Ericsson's deal will be close to the norm for players around his level. He was already speculated $2-2.5 mil, cap raised to what, $64 mil I believe, he received $750k more. The cap being raised already makes contracts like Datsyuk's, Crosby's and Ovechkin's look really f***in good and so far from what we've seen, players are already getting larger contracts than what we've expected from the cap space before.

With an NBA lockout going to be most likely happening and the NHL getting alot more attention everyday excluding Sunday, that should give some more legs to the already rumored cap increase to $69 mil. This would make his contract more justifiable, and $3.25 per year is the new $1.7 per year that we expected him to get.

Of course that's just me writing out my thoughts, I'm probably wrong on the second paragraph as far as how the increase works (not sure if it's every year or not). Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

I just continue to be in awe of Holland's amazing negotiating abilities. The guy just continues to have one great signing after another.

Best GM in the league right there! Am I right or am I right?

+1 please!

I'll chalk this up to the alcohol. Can't think a sober adult would act so childish.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

Please see above.

I believe there is a thread dedicated to venting about the poor signing, but I could be wrong.

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029]

First time I've really wondered about my user name.

I know I named one earlier today already, but this is the LGW post of the day, brought to you by InKennyWeTrust.

[IllinoisRedWingsFan 49]

It's stuff like this that got the league into a lockout a couple of years ago. Overpaying players who aren't that good.

That is why I am nervous with all of this over payment this FA Season that we may be heading down this road again. Also I'd like to thank Ken Holland for giving me an excuse to have a beer tonight while doing some homework for my summer class

[Guest Heaten]

The more I think about it, the more I think Ericsson's deal will be close to the norm for players around his level. He was already speculated $2-2.5 mil, cap raised to what, $64 mil I believe, he received $750k more. The cap being raised already makes contracts like Datsyuk's, Crosby's and Ovechkin's look really f***in good and so far from what we've seen, players are already getting larger contracts than what we've expected from the cap space before.

With an NBA lockout going to be most likely happening and the NHL getting alot more attention everyday excluding Sunday, that should give some more legs to the already rumored cap increase to $69 mil. This would make his contract more justifiable, and $3.25 per year is the new $1.7 per year that we expected him to get.

Of course that's just me writing out my thoughts, I'm probably wrong on the second paragraph as far as how the increase works (not sure if it's every year or not). Correct me if I'm wrong.

Great post.

Your post reminded me of what Mickey Redmond and other teams announcers said during the regular season. They were gushing how Detroit got such a good defenseman in Ericsson with a 7th round pick, and he will easily get $3.5+ million in the open market, but Detroit will probably get a generous home team discount. This was before the cap went up mind you.

So according to hockey announcers, Ericsson would get $3.5 million. Wings got him for $3.25 in a thin FA market and the salary cap significantly increasing.

I don't think Holland did bad considering the circumstances, and rest assured, Holland can trade Ericsson for nice draft picks (better than a 7th that used on him, that's for sure). Assuming he doesn't have a NMC, of course.

Edited July 1, 2011 by Heaten

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029]

Time for more scotch!

Jimmy Beam was my choice for a day such as today.

[Guest Heaten]

When was all of this?

I honestly don't recall any of that - however there were times when I hear "Ericsson", and any form of praise I tend to tune it out.

During the end of the regular season. I believe (don;t quote me) it was Eddie Olczyk announcer of the Blackhawks and Mickey Redmond (don't remember the game)

[Andy Pred 48 337]

dont worry, Kenny has a master plan. LA cant get Doughty signed.......see what happens later

[ben_usmc 253]

Ericsson probably leveraged himself against what other UFA's are making. The poor free agent class probably upped his value.

I know I'm in the huge minority here, but considering what the other blueliners are going to be getting, I don't mind the signing.

so what Ericsson ******* sucks, there are tons of different methods in which to make the d better, none of which include Ericsson.

[55fan 5,133]

"Action Failed: You have reached your quota for positive votes today"

Or else I'd plus one ya.

PS- Why the heck is there a limit on plus one votes anyway? I can understand a quota on negatives, but positives too?

Fear not, for I too am out of + and - ability, and we would have just canceled each other out. So all is well on that front.

(My apologies to Barrie- you have had several posts today that I would have given a + if I had more to give.)

Back to topic:

Given the small number of free agent defensemen out there this year (Jovo, Salei, and Lilja were in the top 20 on a list I read), and given the prices that are demanded by other players and that will be demanded when the Noon Whistle blows today, I don't think that giving Ericsson a contract that is, yes, overblown for any other year is an indication that Holland is not a good GM. It just means that he's taking a known quantity over an unknown or rejected quantity and guaranteeing that it will come at a price that will not be as over-the-top as what others might demand.

On Ericsson's behalf, he would have seen higher on the open market. I do think that the fact that it took this long to negotiate would indicate that E was pushing for higher, which would be logical based on the poor class of UFA's this year.

Supply and demand are responsible for E's outrageous contract, not a mis-step on the part of Holland.

[Reds4Life 51]

Maybe Holland will stay at home today..so he does not make any more MORONIC moves.

Ericsson for 3+ per year. LMAO.

Panic move by Kenny Perfect.

[ShanahanMan 473]

Fear not, for I too am out of + and - ability, and we would have just canceled each other out. So all is well on that front.

(My apologies to Barrie- you have had several posts today that I would have given a + if I had more to give.)

Back to topic:

Given the small number of free agent defensemen out there this year (Jovo, Salei, and Lilja were in the top 20 on a list I read), and given the prices that are demanded by other players and that will be demanded when the Noon Whistle blows today, I don't think that giving Ericsson a

contract that is, yes, overblown for any other year is an indication that Holland is not a good GM. It just means that he's taking a known quantity over an unknown or rejected quantity and guaranteeing that it will come at a price that will not be as over-the-top as what others might

demand.

On Ericsson's behalf, he would have seen higher on the

open market. I do think that the fact that it took this long to negotiate would indicate that E was pushing for higher, which would be logical based on the poor class of UFA's this year.

Supply and demand are responsible for E's outrageous

contract, not a mis-step on the part of Holland.

Even if he would somehow get a Burkesque 3+mil contract on the market, which I really dont think he would have, that's no excuse to do the same. If that's what he commanded, you let him walk, even if it hurts us for a bit. You simply can NOT sign a player who's done NOTHING to deserve it for that kind of money. It's slap in the face to all the players on our team who work their ass off on small contracts (Jimmy signed for a little over 2 mil a season!!!) and makes a mockery of our whole management structure.

Oh and the "he had few options at this point" doesn't cut it. It's his own damn fault for sitting on his hands while 3 defensemen, including a top two one, were walking out the door. He should have made the move for SOMEONE, maybe Wiz, and got that snatched up. You simply can not afford to be passive in that kind of situation. He was, and paid for it by being forced to make a panic signing. Like I said, his own damn fault.

[55fan 5,133]

Has anyone else been wondering about the much-higher-than-average number of pick-for-negotiation-rights deals this year?

Several days ago, we were all chortling at Koko for a 7th and wondering who would give up a pick when they could just wait a couple of days. Now we're all beside ourselves that Holland didn't arrange something like that.

Is this a new trend, or is this something unique to this year?

I've noticed that everyone who did exchange a pick for someone either signed the person or re-traded their rights. Is this a case of the teams asking the player, "Well, if we don't sign you, where do you want to go?" and then trading their rights?

Once free agency starts today, and lesser players go for high contracts, do you think that the ones who signed early will have been paid enough of a lesser amount that players will be hesitant to do this in the future?

In other words, is this a one-year thing due to a lack of talent, or is this the beginning of a trend? I think it's a one-off and next year will be back to normal, but that's just me.

[ShanahanMan 473]

This is one of the few times I agree with ya.

Anywho - I'm guessing Holland/Babcock must see something in Ericsson that we don't...Hopefully Holland is active today in that he still needs 1 more experienced Dman...White, and Kaberle are the 2 I bet he'll look at signing.

Wiz probably has an offer from the BJ's that he's ready to sign; come noon time Wiz may very well let rival GMs know what that offer is with hopes that someone (read Detroit) may match, or "1-up" the offer by Columbus...Dunno if Holland will go there

While Jimmy is a long way from being an All-Star calibre netminder he is at least competent, and has been improving since becomming a Red Wing...Dunno if we can say the same about Ericsson.

I think you misunderstood me, cause thats exactly what I was saying. Jimmy has been, in my opinion, pretty damn stellar and signs for price way less than market value. Yet then Holland goes and signs a guy who's been nothing but lackluster for a million more? Pretty insulting if you ask me.

[Barrie 900]

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Mark-Spizzirri/Red-Wings-re-sign-Jonathan-Ericsson-panic-set-in-for-Holland/77/36794

Good article.

Thanks for posting that article. I don't think people realize that's what the market is for players like Ericsson. I think it's to high, but that's just how it is. Ericsson with his career 45 post seasons games would have got more money, and a longer term if he hit the open market. If Holland would have waited until today at noon to try and sign a UFA defenceman, he would have had to pay a lot more and for a longer term for someone with similar skills as Ericsson.

Holland made the right move, and people will realize it in a few weeks.

I think you misunderstood me, cause thats exactly what I was saying. Jimmy has been, in my opinion, pretty damn stellar and signs for price way less than market value. Yet then Holland goes and signs a guy who's been nothing but lackluster for a million more? Pretty insulting if you ask me.

That's just how the market is right now.

[Barrie 900]

(My apologies to Barrie- you have had several posts today that I would have given a + if I had more to give.)

It's cool, I got your back, +1 for you.

And yes, the poor crop of this year's free agents raised Ericsson's value, and we'll see it starting today. These loooong term deals has over inflated the FA market, and it may get worse every year.

[sleepwalker 512]

More importantly, as was already pointed out, this move by Holland sets a horrible precedent and hurts team morale and on top of that, is going to drive up the prices our other players start asking by millions. (I mean, s***, imagine what Kronwall is going to ask for now, seeing someone like E get such an insane contract)

Think about it. All the other guys now have to play knowing that a s*** player like E is making over 3 mil while most of them signed contracts for less than they are worth. Imagine how Jimmy must feel. Jimmy is a true Red Wing. He came off a Caulder caliber year and signed a 2 mil contract knowing damn well he could have gotten a ton more playing elsewhere. Whereas E asks for the moon and sky, after doing nothing but declining play-wise, or at the very best, remaining stagnent, over the past couple seasons.

And he is going to make more than Kronwall this season? Thats completely and utterly retarded. I know Nick gets a raise next year, but still...

This signing does a whole lot more than damage up monetarily. It really f***s up the other players heads knowing most of them are signed to contracts for less than they are worth, while s***ty ass E is making over a million more than he is worth each year.

Edit: and now I see Eaves signed to just 1.2 mil!!! So E is worth 3.25, and Eaves is worth 1.2? Is this bizarro world?

(or does this speak more to the fact that the other guys on the team are true Wings and team players, while E is just a money hungry dickhead who doesn't care about anything else?)

Edited July 1, 2011 by sleepwalker

[Wings_Dynasty 267]

Key question not seen so far:

Is there a no trade clause???

[Barrie 900]

More importantly, as was already pointed out, this move by Holland sets a horrible precedent and hurts team morale and on top of that, is going to drive up the prices our other players start asking by millions. (I mean, s***, imagine what Kronwall is going to ask for now, seeing someone like E get such an insane contract)

Think about it. All the other guys now have to play knowing that a s*** player like E is making over 3 mil while most of them signed contracts for less than they are worth. Imagine how Jimmy must feel. Jimmy is a true Red Wing. He came off a Caulder caliber year and signed a 2 mil contract knowing damn well he could have gotten a ton more playing elsewhere. Whereas E asks for the moon and sky, after doing nothing but declining play-wise, or at the very best, remaining stagnent, over the past couple seasons.

And he is going to make more than Kronwall this season? Thats completely and utterly retarded. I know Nick gets a raise next year, but still...

This signing does a whole lot more than damage up monetarily. It really f***s up the other players heads knowing most of them are signed to contracts for less than they are worth, while s***ty ass E is making over a million more than he is worth each year.

Edit: and now I see Eaves signed to just 1.2 mil!!! So E is worth 3.25, and Eaves is worth 1.2? Is this bizarro world?

(or does this speak more to the fact that the other guys on the team are true Wings and team players, while E is just a money hungry dickhead who doesn't care about anything else?)

The players will be fine, they understand the market and probably congratulate each other in the locker room. They know, and their agents will tell them, when it's their turn to be a UFA, they can cash in too.

FYI, Kronwall is going to make $3,750,000 in 2011-12, so Ericsson is making less.

http://www.capgeek.com/players/display.php?id=300

This deal with Ericsson, guarantees Kronwall another $2-3 million per season in his next contract, Kronwall probably likes it.