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Apparently, we were finalists for Vokoun?


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#21 Crymson

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 02:11 PM

Why not have them compete for a starting job?

The Wings are a professional sports team, and not a charity case. We don't owe Howard anything. We're trying to put together the best team possible.

If he couldn't beat Vokoun for a job, he shouldn't be a starter.


It appears you didn't read the article. Vokoun's was interested in being given the position of starting goaltender. He was not interested in competing for the position. Notice that Boudreau has already announced that Vokoun will be the starting goalie for the Caps. The Caps were willing to give him that guarantee. The Wings were not, and rightfully so.

Edited by Crymson, 12 July 2011 - 02:14 PM.


#22 Dimaline312000

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 02:14 PM

I can't see why the Wings would need to sign Vokoun. Sure I can see them having interest in him but with Jimmy as our starter why would we need to spend the money on him. Our main concern should be signing a back-up goalie.

#23 Jesusberg

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 02:29 PM

Because the top players are the top players. Not potential top players. Why don't we just promote everyone on the griffins! They've got potential!
If he can't handle some internal competition, he's got more problems than Nabby potentially joining the team.


It's not just potential when he's shown actual growth at the NHL level. Jimmy Howard isn't an AHL player anymore. He looked more poised and focused in this playoffs than ever before. It's about hanging onto a younger guy who can play for years to come over a guy who'll be gone in a couple seasons. If the "internal" competition were a younger guy, then by all means. If I thought Vokoun would be THAT much better than Howard, then sure... but I doubt he would be a huge upgrade.

If there's one thing an NHL goaltender shouldn't be, it's easily rattled.


Which I agree with, but how many top goaltenders can you really say don't get rattled? I would argue for Miller and maybe Rinne off the top of my head. Goaltending is a touchy position, and there's a reason they say goaltenders are usually headcases. Generally speaking, goalies tend to have poor seasons all the time... then they can bounce back, or fall off the map. Thomas had a crap season, Luongo's a headcase... Price fell off too. Not to mention guys like Fleury, Kipper, Bryz, etc. Goalies naturally go through ups and downs.

#24 Heaten

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 04:29 PM

I'd rather have Howard as the starter, though Vokoun would have been a solid backup... he wanted the #1 gig.

Edited by Heaten, 12 July 2011 - 04:30 PM.


#25 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 05:30 PM

It appears you didn't read the article. Vokoun's was interested in being given the position of starting goaltender. He was not interested in competing for the position. Notice that Boudreau has already announced that Vokoun will be the starting goalie for the Caps. The Caps were willing to give him that guarantee. The Wings were not, and rightfully so.

Where does it say that? I read the article, and the only part that comes close to saying that is the conjecture made by Wyshynski about how Vokoun will be starting in Washington without having played a game for them. Nothing Holland said indicates anything about Vokoun, or any goalie, wanting to be given the starting job.

"Some of the goalies we talked to didn't want to be a backup," general manager Ken Holland said. "They want to go to other teams and have a shot at being No. 1 or at playing a lot more games."


That sounds like wanting to compete for the #1 job, which I can completely understand with Vokoun. He very well could've won the job with the Wings.

And it's not like Detroit doesn't have a history of bringing in other goalies to compete for the job when the opportunity is there.

Edited by haroldsnepsts, 12 July 2011 - 05:31 PM.


#26 pucktividi

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 05:39 PM



And it's not like Detroit doesn't have a history of bringing in other goalies to compete for the job when the opportunity is there.


+1

People seemed to forget what happened in 02 and 08 with a healthy competition among the Wings goalies

#27 TheDetroitRedWings

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 05:57 PM

I'm annoyed by the notion that no matter what, Jimmy has the #1 spot locked up. If we're choosing between him, Joey Mac, and Ozzie, then yes Jimmy is the #1 for sure. But Vokoun is a different story. If he were a part of the equation, it's only fair to let him and Jimmy battle it out and prove on the ice who deserves the #1 spot. And that's what Kenny should've told Vokoun. Cause if he had, then maybe he would've signed with us. Obviously he's not gonna sign here if he's presented a backup role only. In my eyes, it should ALWAYS be a "may the better man win" situation. Especially with a former all star goalie like Vokoun.

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#28 Jersey Wing

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 08:00 PM

I have a gut feeling that the Wings will save their pennies then in one fell swoop at the trade deadline pick up Bill Ranford, Ulf Samuelsson, Wendel Clark and Chris Chelios.

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#29 Never_Retire_Steve

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 08:15 PM

I definitely do not understand the "I do not want Vokoun" sentiment. All of a sudden we don't want one of the top 5 goaltenders since the lock out?


#30 Crymson

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 08:35 PM

Where does it say that? I read the article, and the only part that comes close to saying that is the conjecture made by Wyshynski about how Vokoun will be starting in Washington without having played a game for them. Nothing Holland said indicates anything about Vokoun, or any goalie, wanting to be given the starting job.

That sounds like wanting to compete for the #1 job, which I can completely understand with Vokoun. He very well could've won the job with the Wings.


That sounds like wanting to be declared the starter outright at the beginning of the season. He got that with the Capitals. He wouldn't have gotten it with the Wings.

And it's not like Detroit doesn't have a history of bringing in other goalies to compete for the job when the opportunity is there.


Vokoun's ultimate choice makes it pretty clear what he wanted. Why would Boudreau have immediately announced him as the starter otherwise? He went to a contender cheap. He wanted the starting gig. He would go to a team that would give it to him outright over a team that would make him compete for it.

I'm annoyed by the notion that no matter what, Jimmy has the #1 spot locked up. If we're choosing between him, Joey Mac, and Ozzie, then yes Jimmy is the #1 for sure. But Vokoun is a different story. If he were a part of the equation, it's only fair to let him and Jimmy battle it out and prove on the ice who deserves the #1 spot. And that's what Kenny should've told Vokoun. Cause if he had, then maybe he would've signed with us. Obviously he's not gonna sign here if he's presented a backup role only. In my eyes, it should ALWAYS be a "may the better man win" situation. Especially with a former all star goalie like Vokoun.


Why do you have any doubt whatsoever that Kenny DID tell him that? Why are you assuming that Kenny just told him "No"? That would be pretty damned stupid of Kenny, and Kenny isn't stupid.

Vokoun's two choices were as follows:

1) Sign with Washington and be the guaranteed starter.
2) Sign with Detroit and compete with Howard for the starting job, and risk being relegated to backup status.

Which option do you think was more attractive to him?

Edited by Crymson, 12 July 2011 - 08:37 PM.


#31 dragonballgtz

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Posted 12 July 2011 - 10:56 PM

I can't see why the Wings would need to sign Vokoun. Sure I can see them having interest in him but with Jimmy as our starter why would we need to spend the money on him. Our main concern should be signing a back-up goalie.

$1.5M for that caliber of a "back-up" would be huge, you honestly would have 1a and 1b goalie situation. Split the games evenly and the one who starts to perform better down the stretch gets more games near the end and the playoff nod. I want Nick to have the best chance for him to go out on top and Vokoun would've been worth the risk.

#32 Crymson

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Posted 13 July 2011 - 12:15 AM

$1.5M for that caliber of a "back-up" would be huge, you honestly would have 1a and 1b goalie situation. Split the games evenly and the one who starts to perform better down the stretch gets more games near the end and the playoff nod. I want Nick to have the best chance for him to go out on top and Vokoun would've been worth the risk.


Again--if Holland could have gotten him, he would have. Vokoun had a choice between a guaranteed starting position and a starting position he'd need to compete for. I think that was an easy choice for him.

#33 Hockeytown0001

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Posted 13 July 2011 - 05:39 AM

This would have been the first instance that I can remember of the Red Wings having a left-catching goalie.

Edited by Hockeytown0001, 13 July 2011 - 05:40 AM.

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#34 xtrememachine1

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Posted 13 July 2011 - 07:07 AM

This would have been the first instance that I can remember of the Red Wings having a left-catching goalie.


When I first started watching the Wings, Glen Hanlon was their goalie and he was a right hand glove goalie. So its been awhile.

Again--if Holland could have gotten him, he would have. Vokoun had a choice between a guaranteed starting position and a starting position he'd need to compete for. I think that was an easy choice for him.


Exactly, he wasn't interested in a 1A / 1B situation, he wanted to be 1. After just signing Howard to an extension and his performance in the playoffs, it wasn't happening. I would have loved to have had Vokoun on the team, but not at the expense of throwing away Howard especially after what he's done for us the past couple years.

#35 mmamolo

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Posted 13 July 2011 - 07:18 AM

+1

People seemed to forget what happened in 02 and 08 with a healthy competition among the Wings goalies

Fair enough...but don't discredit all the times it didn't work out
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#36 mjlegend

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Posted 13 July 2011 - 08:39 AM

Hudler, Kindl and a first to Washington for Vokoun.

#37 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 13 July 2011 - 11:48 AM

That sounds like wanting to be declared the starter outright at the beginning of the season. He got that with the Capitals. He wouldn't have gotten it with the Wings.

Vokoun's ultimate choice makes it pretty clear what he wanted. Why would Boudreau have immediately announced him as the starter otherwise? He went to a contender cheap. He wanted the starting gig. He would go to a team that would give it to him outright over a team that would make him compete for it.

Why do you have any doubt whatsoever that Kenny DID tell him that? Why are you assuming that Kenny just told him "No"? That would be pretty damned stupid of Kenny, and Kenny isn't stupid.

Vokoun's two choices were as follows:

1) Sign with Washington and be the guaranteed starter.
2) Sign with Detroit and compete with Howard for the starting job, and risk being relegated to backup status.

Which option do you think was more attractive to him?

Right. It may sound like that, but these are all assumptions on your part, so I don't see why you go questioning someone's reading abilities or acting like Vokoun wanted a handout when nothing in the article confirms what you're saying. It's all just speculation.

Boudreau could just as well be announcing Vokoun as starter for publicity reasons after his team s*** the bed in the playoffs once again. With Vokoun they've got a proven goaltender in net (not much playoff experience but that's hardly his fault). That would make me happy if I were a Caps fan, knowing now we've got a promising young goaltender and a solid experienced one.

If a goalie as good as Vokoun takes a discount that big, it wouldn't be surprising he would want some guarantee in Washington of the starting gig, but who knows what the potential offer was to play in Detroit. Holland never even commented specifically on Vokoun.

And to be clear, I'm not assuming Holland just told him no. I don't know what went on at all in any of the negotiations, other than Vokoun signed with the capitals.

Again--if Holland could have gotten him, he would have. Vokoun had a choice between a guaranteed starting position and a starting position he'd need to compete for. I think that was an easy choice for him.

Because Holland can somehow get every single player he wants?

Again, you're making the assumption that Vokoun somehow ruled out signing with the Wings simply because he would not be guaranteed the starting job without having to compete for it. Unless there's some article out there I haven't seen, nothing Holland or Vokoun has said confirms that. It's all just speculation and quite likely that there were other factors involved in his decision, yet you're latching onto this one detail like there has to be some reason that makes Vokoun look bad, just because he didn't sign with Detroit.

Ultimately, who cares? He signed with Washington. I don't see why we need to invent a reason why he didn't play in Detroit.

Edited by haroldsnepsts, 13 July 2011 - 11:55 AM.


#38 Crymson

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Posted 13 July 2011 - 12:05 PM

Right. It may sound like that, but these are all assumptions on your part, so I don't see why you go questioning someone's reading abilities or acting like Vokoun wanted a handout when nothing in the article confirms what you're saying. It's all just speculation.

Boudreau could just as well be announcing Vokoun as starter for publicity reasons after his team s*** the bed in the playoffs once again. With Vokoun they've got a proven goaltender in net (not much playoff experience but that's hardly his fault). That would make me happy if I were a Caps fan, knowing now we've got a promising young goaltender and a solid experienced one.

If a goalie as good as Vokoun takes a discount that big, it wouldn't be surprising he would want some guarantee in Washington of the starting gig, but who knows what the potential offer was to play in Detroit. Holland never even commented specifically on Vokoun.

And to be clear, I'm not assuming Holland just told him no. I don't know what went on at all in any of the negotiations, other than Vokoun signed with the capitals.



The assumptions I made were supported by the article and by solid logic. And yes, I will question the reading comprehension of anyone who comes away from that article thinking, "OMG WHY DIDN'T HOLLAND OFFER TO LET HIM COMPETE FOR THE STARTING JOB???" when Holland almost certainly did just that.

Because Holland can somehow get every single player he wants?

Again, you're making the assumption that Vokoun somehow ruled out signing with the Wings simply because he would not be guaranteed the starting job without having to compete for it. Unless there's some article out there I haven't seen, nothing Holland or Vokoun has said confirms that. It's all just speculation and quite likely that there were other factors involved in his decision, yet you're latching onto this one detail like there has to be some reason that makes Vokoun look bad, just because he didn't sign with Detroit.


If Holland had been able to get Vokoun without declaring him the starter over Jimmy outright, I'm 100% certain that he would have.

Ultimately, who cares? He signed with Washington.


You do. And I think this is a discussion forum. Feel free to correct me if I am incorrect in that.

+1

People seemed to forget what happened in 02 and 08 with a healthy competition among the Wings goalies


2002? Hasek was indisputably the #1 goalie coming in that season. Osgood was put on waivers almost immediately after Hasek was traded for. The Wings never had any intention of keeping Osgood. So whom was Hasek competing with? Manny Legace?

I agree that Hasek and Osgood did great together from '06-'08. However, both were in the twilight of their careers at that stage. The last time we had two goalies in their primes competing for a spot was in 2003. That didn't go well, different though the circumstances may have been.

Edited by Crymson, 13 July 2011 - 12:07 PM.


#39 vladdy16

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Posted 13 July 2011 - 01:17 PM

I definitely do not understand the "I do not want Vokoun" sentiment. All of a sudden we don't want one of the top 5 goaltenders since the lock out?

I guess I'm the only one around here who remembers Howard playing lights-out in the playoffs. We have no need for a #1; we need a good backup.
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#40 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 13 July 2011 - 04:14 PM

The assumptions I made were supported by the article and by solid logic. And yes, I will question the reading comprehension of anyone who comes away from that article thinking, "OMG WHY DIDN'T HOLLAND OFFER TO LET HIM COMPETE FOR THE STARTING JOB???" when Holland almost certainly did just that.

If Holland had been able to get Vokoun without declaring him the starter over Jimmy outright, I'm 100% certain that he would have.

You do. And I think this is a discussion forum. Feel free to correct me if I am incorrect in that.

Here's the actual post you replied to, in case you need to refresh your memory. Could you point out the part where he was freaking out about Holland in any way?

Why not have them compete for a starting job?

The Wings are a professional sports team, and not a charity case. We don't owe Howard anything. We're trying to put together the best team possible.

If he couldn't beat Vokoun for a job, he shouldn't be a starter.

As for the rest of your points, they're all still assumptions. They're not completely unfounded, but someone having a different opinion than yours doesn't mean they can't read. This is a discussion forum after all. At least that's what I've been told.



I guess I'm the only one around here who remembers Howard playing lights-out in the playoffs. We have no need for a #1; we need a good backup.

I think after the playoffs management is probably feeling more solid about Jimmy. It's not a coincidence they took a run at Nabokov.

Though if they were talking to Vokoun it likely means he still has Osgood-like status here, in that he's the starting goaltender but they're still open to shopping for someone better.

Edited by haroldsnepsts, 13 July 2011 - 04:15 PM.






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