47 replies to this topic

[Ozzie30]

Lidstrom is clearly a special player, clearly the standout defenseman of this era, and often argued as the greatest ever, ect. We're all Wings fans here, you should all understand the point I'm making.
It's already a certainty that Lidstom will be a first-ballot HHOF inductee, but is that all? Could he join the uber-exclusive clique of player the Hall admits immediately? In other words, is Lidstrom in the same class as:
Dit Clapper
Maurice Richard
Ted Lindsay
Red Kelly
Terry Sawchuk
Jean Beliveau
Gordie Howe
Bobby Orr
Mario Lemieux
Wayne Gretzky

I think there's evidence that he is. Not only has he been the most dominant at his position for over a decade, he is currently second to Orr in Norris Trophy's won, the first Euro trainedcaptain to win the SC and Conn Smyth - not to mention his numerous All-Star selections and individual achievments. The biggest knock against him has to be how quietly he's dominated. He doesn't hit like Scott Stevens, he didn't fly like Orr, he's just patient and unyielding like Lidstrom.
What do you think?

Edited by Ozzie30, 17 July 2011 - 01:41 AM.

[CaliWingsNut]

Lidstrom is clearly a special player, clearly the standout defenseman of this era, and often argued as the greatest ever, ect. We're all Wings fans here, you should all understand the point I'm making.
It's already a certainty that Lidstom will be a first-ballot HHOF inductee, but is that all? Could he join the uber-exclusive clique of player the Hall admits immediately? Is in other words, is Lidstrom in the same class as:
Dit Clapper
Maurice Richard
Ted Lindsay
Red Kelly
Terry Sawchuk
Jean Beliveau
Gordie Howe
Bobby Orr
Mario Lemieux
Wayne Gretzky

I think there's evidence that he is. Not only has he been the most dominant at his position for over a decade, he is currently second to Orr in Norris Trophy's won, the first Euro trainedcaptain to win the SC and Conn Smyth - not to mention his numerous All-Star selections and individual achievments. The biggest knock against him has to be how quietly he's dominated. He doesn't hit like Scott Stevens, he didn't fly like Orr, he's just patient and unyielding like Lidstrom.
What do you think?

He's often compared to Orr in how much of an impact he's had on the game. I think it's possible, but doubt the modern HHOF would make such an exception (not because of him).

[Creasemonkey]

This is something nobody would be able to legitimately argue if it were to occur, but I'd say the chances are about .05% or less, and I have no problem with him waiting.  I think that club doesn't admit a new member for a long, long time.

[barabbas16]

I agree with everything that has been said. Lidstrom is a special player. He is and has been one of the very best, if not THE very best defenseman ever. There clearly is evidence that he does belong in that group. And I do not think that anyone would be able to legitimately argue if this were to occur. All of that said, I don't believe this will happen either. The reason that I think this is that Nicklas Lidstrom was not born in Canada, as we can all see that the entirety of the players who have received that distinct honor were. I think that the HHOF will keep this exclusive club exclusively Canadian. I will, however, be extremely pleased if I am surprised by their decision and they choose to waive the waiting period for him.

[X13WINGS13X]

Lidstrom holds contributions to his game that no other players have. First Euro to win the Conn Smythe and first Euro to captain a Cup winning team. 1108 points and counting. 4 Stanley Cups. 7 time Norris Trophy winner and counting. And the form of play that requires no physical aspect with flawless positional play. Do I think he will be an immediate inductee? Maybe. Do I think they will have serious considerations about it? Absolutely.

[Dimaline312000]

Liddy is a fantastic player but IMO he isn't better than Steve Y and he had to wait the 3 years so I think that Lidstrom will have to do the same. Which really isn't a big deal an I'm sure he's not even worried about it one bit but he will be in the HHOF that's for sure but I can't see it being any sooner than the standard waiting time of 3 years.... At least I think it's 3 years.

[wings1110]

Hes arguably the best d-man of all time, if not second to orr. The impact hes had on the game, hes as classy as they come, won 4 cups, first euro captain to ever hoist the cup, his longevity, can go on and on and on, the face of the franchise since stevie left(and even when he was here to an extent, no one has anything bad to say about him, can go on and on and on about him. YES he should be in immediately he won thef****** norris in his forties.

[jeff48109]

No, he's not Canadian.

[Hockeytown_Ryan]

He should be in already, who cares if he is still playing.

Why wait! Just like he should be the only player still playing while his number is in the rafters!

[ogreslayer]

Liddy is a fantastic player but IMO he isn't better than Steve Y and he had to wait the 3 years so I think that Lidstrom will have to do the same. Which really isn't a big deal an I'm sure he's not even worried about it one bit but he will be in the HHOF that's for sure but I can't see it being any sooner than the standard waiting time of 3 years.... At least I think it's 3 years.

I think even Steve himself would disagree with you on that. Lids will go down as at least the 2nd best defenseman of all time, the absolute best of his generation, & a cornerstone in helping to grow the game from the perspective of European players. Should the HoF waive the waiting period for him? Absolutely they should. Will they though? I highly doubt it myself.

[GMRwings1983]

No.

Most of those players played a long time ago, when things were done differently. Only guys on that list which played in the last 20 years are Gretzky and Lemieux, which are top 3 all-time players.

Also, everyone raves about Yzerman and Messier all the time, and they didn't get a special exemption. Neither did Roy, who many people consider the best goalie ever. I don't see it being done for Lidstrom, even though he does belong in that class as far as accomplishments go.

Lastly, I wonder why Bobby Hull isn't on that list? Wonder if it had something to do with him finishing his career elsewhere?

[Wings4Life19]

if this season he wins the Heart, another Norris, another cup, and another Con Smyth then calls it quits I hope they at least consider it. But considering Guy Lafleur, Doug Harvey, Ray Bourque, and Mark Messier among others arnt on that list I doubt he makes it.

[eva unit zero]

if this season he wins the Heart, another Norris, another cup, and another Con Smyth then calls it quits I hope they at least consider it. But considering Guy Lafleur, Doug Harvey, Ray Bourque, and Mark Messier among others arnt on that list I doubt he makes it.

None of the players you listed were as good as Nick. It's like saying Fedorov's number shouldn't be retired because Jimmy Carson's isn't. Except you'd be slightly wrong if you said the second, because Jimmy's number was retired by the Wings. Twice. To my knowledge he is the only player to have been the last to have worn two different retired numbers for one team, neither being retired in his name. Kind of makes me want to start up a "retire Norm Ullman's number!" petition and get another "7" banner hanging up there. I mean why not, right?

[Wings4Life19]

None of the players you listed were as good as Nick.

I would put Doug Harvey and Mark Messier in the same group with Nick with Mess being ahead. And based on your logic your saying that Dit Clapper, Ted Lindsay, and Red Kelly are as good or better than Nick, I disagree.

[GMRwings1983]

I would put Doug Harvey and Mark Messier in the same group with Nick with Mess being ahead. And based on your logic your saying that Dit Clapper, Ted Lindsay, and Red Kelly are as good or better than Nick, I disagree.

As I said earlier, that doesn't matter.

The league is less likely to make exceptions in the last several decades, than they were back in the 50's and 60's.

[Wings4Life19]

The league is less likely to make exceptions in the last several decades, than they were back in the 50's and 60's.

I'm in agreement with you, if Mark Messier, who most people would agree that he was as important to the NHL as Mario Lemieux or Wayne Gretzky, doesn't get that honor I have a feeling Gretzky was the last player that this will happen to.

[eva unit zero]

I would put Doug Harvey and Mark Messier in the same group with Nick with Mess being ahead. And based on your logic your saying that Dit Clapper, Ted Lindsay, and Red Kelly are as good or better than Nick, I disagree.

Mark Messier is overrated. He has two Hart trophies to his name, neither of which should have gone to him. People act like his leadership is generational because he said his team would win, and then he came out and scored a couple of goals. People act like the 1994 Cup doesn't happen without "The Guarantee" and that Messier was the most important player, when in reality he was at best the third-most important player. His ego destroyed a locker room in Vancouver, yet most people don't bother bringing that up when talking about him.

Harvey was a great defenseman. One of the best ever. But still not as good as Nick.

[Wings4Life19]

Mark Messier is overrated. He has two Hart trophies to his name, neither of which should have gone to him. People act like his leadership is generational because he said his team would win, and then he came out and scored a couple of goals. People act like the 1994 Cup doesn't happen without "The Guarantee" and that Messier was the most important player, when in reality he was at best the third-most important player. His ego destroyed a locker room in Vancouver, yet most people don't bother bringing that up when talking about him.

Harvey was a great defenseman. One of the best ever. But still not as good as Nick.

were getting off topic. but, Mess:
2nd leading scorer of all time(regular season)
only person to captain 2 different teams to a stanley cup title
6 stanley cups

and if the 2nd or 3rd best defensemen ever who played while this was a bit of a trend didnt have this honor Nick wont either

Edited by Wings4Life19, 17 July 2011 - 12:07 AM.

[eva unit zero]

I'm in agreement with you, if Mark Messier, who most people would agree that he was as important to the NHL as Mario Lemieux or Wayne Gretzky, doesn't get that honor I have a feeling Gretzky was the last player that this will happen to.

Mark Messier was only important to the NHL because he was around forever.

[eva unit zero]

were getting off topic. but, Mess:
2nd leading scorer of all time(regular season)
only person to captain 2 different teams to a stanley cup title
6 stanley cups

and if the 2nd or 3rd best defensemen ever who played while this was a bit of a trend didnt have this honor Nick wont either

Second leading scorer because of how long he played, not how great he was. As for being the only person to captain two teams to a Cup; Leetch lead the Rangers to that 94 Cup. Messier may have been the Captain, but Leetch was the LEADER. Captain is a title. Ron Francis is the only player to ever captain two different franchises twice. Big deal.

Messier has won 6 Stanley Cups. Do you know who has won 4? Kris Draper. Darren McCarty. Tomas Holmstrom. Who has won two Cups and been to three finals in the past four seasons? Tomas Kopecky.

Let's look at this:

Messier goals-per-game: 0.395
Messier assists-per-game: 0.679
Messier points-per-game: 1.075

Now let's compare it to someone he was traded for. Bernie Nicholls.

Nicholls goals-per-game: 0.421
Nicholls assists-per-game: 0.651
Nicholls points-per-game: 1.073

Seems like a fair deal, right? Nicholls scored 475 goals and 1209 points, so the "small sample size" argument can't really be used here. Messier's career numbers basically match Nicholls. They're the same age, they have the same per-game stats. Messier was a bit more physical and more durable due to a bigger frame. But think about it. Your "second all-time" argument could be for Bernie Nicholls, if he had remained healthy. He certainly had a higher offensive peak than Messier.