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Why the Detroit Red Wings are headed for a fall


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#21 xtrememachine1

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 01:02 PM

Also, for all of you who are so angry after having lost to the Sharks for back to back seasons in the second round just look back to '99 and '00 - the Wings lost back to back second rounds against the Avs. Granted, the following year they got beat in the first round but that was followed by a cup. Maybe the only time the Wings truly make changes is after a first round exit (again, as they did after the '06 loss to Edmonton).


Its funny you bring that up. Right after we lost to the Sharks, those back to back losses to the Avs in the second round came to mind and I said outloud, "I hope this doesn't mean we're gonna lose in the first round next year". lol Then again, if that means we win the Cup the year after that, I'll go for that. :thumbup:

#22 mmamolo

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 01:04 PM

Its funny you bring that up. Right after we lost to the Sharks, those back to back losses to the Avs in the second round came to mind and I said outloud, "I hope this doesn't mean we're gonna lose in the first round next year". lol Then again, if that means we win the Cup the year after that, I'll go for that. :thumbup:

I know, I honestly thought the exact same thing. As painful as it would be to lose in the first round yeah I would trade a 2012 first round loss for a 2013 Stanley Cup - provided Lidstrom forced another season out. If Lidstrom isn't around then I'd have to rethink that.
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#23 Shaman

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 01:15 PM

Jarnkrok and Pulu will be the next steals of the decade. Count on it. Again I think people really don't understand why Pulkkinen fell so far, but it was purely because he had two injuries that made him a huge question mark whether he would be able to come back and play at a high level. Prior to the injuries he was ranked #4 overall in the 2010 draft projections with a lot of talk of him being #1 overall. Should he continue his dominant play he will be a player that everyone will lament passing over. I mean he was top 5 in scoring as a teenager in a mens league.

Edited by Shaman464, 19 July 2011 - 01:26 PM.

Feuer und Wasser kommt nicht zusammen
Kann man nicht binden sind nicht verwandt
In Funken versunken steh ich in Flammen
und bin im Wasser verbrannt
Im Wasser verbrannt

#24 chet1530

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 01:23 PM

the red wings have been going through cycles for the past 20 years, only detroit's "ruts" are making it to the second round. despite the competetiveness of the league with the institution of the salary cap, you still just have to be better than 50% of the teams in the league to make it into the playoffs... not to mention if the wings move to the east. you don't have to be the best in your division or the wild card race. because the red wings have kept the same ownership, managment, and more recently committed to babock's coaching style, they will never have to undergo a serious rebuilding period that many teams including the powerhouses of the 90s have gone through.
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#25 hockey23

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 01:34 PM

Jarnkrok and Pulu will be the next steals of the decade. Count on it. Again I think people really don't understand why Pulkkinen fell so far, but it was purely because he had two injuries that made him a huge question mark whether he would be able to come back and play at a high level. Prior to the injuries he was ranked #4 overall in the 2010 draft projections with a lot of talk of him being #1 overall. Should he continue his dominant play he will be a player that everyone will lament passing over. I mean he was top 5 in scoring as a teenager in a mens league.

I like Pulu, but I think his size/speed combo will limit him. We'll need some stars to come from our system to avoid a fall while Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, and Kronwall are declining, and I think Tatar, Nyquist, Smith, Jarnkrok, and Jurco have a chance to be the stars. I see Pulu as a 2nd line winger and PP weapon, not as an elite Datsyuk/Zetterberg type player.

#26 James021

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 01:48 PM

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#27 Heroes of Hockeytown

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 01:54 PM

"Decline" is relative. The Wings are in the enviable position of having an owner that is always willing to spend up to the cap, while many teams aren't so lucky. The success Holland and the scouting staff have had is also notable, but also more subject to deviation.

Money doesn't always equal success, and you never know when you'll hit a patch of bad luck (Lidstrom retiring certainly qualifies), but until the rest of the league gets on Ilitch's level there will always be an unequal footing for the Wings to take advantage of.
"We've been in the same spot all year long. We won 50 games for the fourth year in a row. People think we're just hum-drum and boring.
No, you know what we are, we're good. You can't do what we do every single day and not be good." - Mike Babcock

#28 Blazer

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 01:58 PM

The Wings have gone through many cycles and never more apparent than the last few seasons, albeit struck by injuries, the dominant powerhouse has been leveled out and I think while the team were more than good enough to win the cup in '10 and '11; the losses have forced management to find a new way to rise above the rest of the league again. People also tend to forget the loss of Konstantinov and Fischer, those type of elite players, especially on defense just don't come along often, no matter how many #1 picks you have. The Wings draft not only skillful players but just as much their mindset, because the mind lasts longer than their bodies and no more evident is that than with Fischer. Having a young guy like that so shortly removed from top level play in the NHL running the development of our players might end up paying more dividents to keeping us a playoff team during the "fall" than if his heart condition never happened.

As mentioned earlier the Avs are a perfect example of how all the bits and pieces don't add up. I for one are sometimes mad about Holland's reluctance for big splashes when they seem apparent, but as one of the valid points in the article an average of 28th as first pick over the last 10 years will spell doom if traded away for part-time players who just as draft picks might or might not blossom. Just look at Heatley, yes he made the Sharks dominate in the reg. season, but he was meant to score his goals when it mattered the most: -4, 2 assists in 4 games against CHI and only 1 assist against VAN in 5 games.

I will count on our current prospect farm in 5 years than gamble on short-time FA luck. FA to me is for quickly replace your own dominant players when they are forced to retire early due to injuries (Konstantinov, Fischer) or old age (Lidstrom, Yzerman, etc...). If those players prove to be longtime and successful Red Wings, hurray! But it's not the perfect solution.

The Red Wings will be fine, ESPN will continue to raise flags in July and eat grass in June.

Edit: Spelling errors.

Edited by Blazer, 19 July 2011 - 01:59 PM.


#29 Shaman

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 02:12 PM

I like Pulu, but I think his size/speed combo will limit him. We'll need some stars to come from our system to avoid a fall while Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, and Kronwall are declining, and I think Tatar, Nyquist, Smith, Jarnkrok, and Jurco have a chance to be the stars. I see Pulu as a 2nd line winger and PP weapon, not as an elite Datsyuk/Zetterberg type player.

You really haven't followed him have you? Hes actually plays in the dirty areas pretty well, his skating isn't as bad as most people say it is (think Zetterberg), hes a winger, so speed isn't as important as many people think is, he has really good playmaking abilities and has both a massive slapshot (both heavy and accurate) and a pretty underrated wrist shot. Very few people think he will be a 2nd liner, hes a boom or bust player, and most analysts would agree with his skill set he could very well be a 40 goal scorer. To prove this he was 5th in one of the top leagues in the world outside of the NHL (a lot of people would rank the Finnish League 2nd or 3rd and stylistically the closest to the NHL of any of the European Leagues). And my final point is he broke a few of Selanne's rookie records while being a full 2 1/2 years younger at the time.

Edited by Shaman464, 19 July 2011 - 02:15 PM.

Feuer und Wasser kommt nicht zusammen
Kann man nicht binden sind nicht verwandt
In Funken versunken steh ich in Flammen
und bin im Wasser verbrannt
Im Wasser verbrannt

#30 pucktividi

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 02:30 PM

You can get lucky once or twice,but constantly developing high picks into quality players has nothing with the luck.

Oh,he didn't mention how the Pens or Hawks were lucky with the lottery picks :rolleyes:

Haters gonna hate as usual

Edited by pucktividi, 19 July 2011 - 02:30 PM.


#31 Dimaline312000

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 02:37 PM

I have to agree that at some point the core of the Wings will get older but that is what the draft is all about. In the coming seasons more and more young players will eventually come up. Holland will just have to face the facts that you can't just keep signin veterans and waiving good young players. If you look at our team a small part of our young players are going to become more and more part of the core of the team as long as the play up to expectations and full potential. Helm, Abdelkader, Ericsson, Kindl and Emmerton and Mursak if the Wings will keep them instead of signing Draper. In the post cap era teams are building through the draft they have to make championship team out of what they have because teams no longer have the luxuary of spending whatever they want to get whoever they want. The Wings are doing that too. You can expect to see more and more Wings prospects coming up and helping build the team so that when the time comes for the core we have now to retire we'll already have another core of players ready to take on the challenge. I can't see a Dead Wings Era coming or anything like that but the Wings at some point may not be top contenders, I hope I'm wrong but every team has it's days in the sun and other teams have dark days. I'm very confident in our scouting staff and I"m sure they will do what they can to get the best players in our organzation to help us conted only time will tell.

#32 hockey23

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 02:42 PM

You really haven't followed him have you? Hes actually plays in the dirty areas pretty well, his skating isn't as bad as most people say it is (think Zetterberg), hes a winger, so speed isn't as important as many people think is, he has really good playmaking abilities and has both a massive slapshot (both heavy and accurate) and a pretty underrated wrist shot. Very few people think he will be a 2nd liner, hes a boom or bust player, and most analysts would agree with his skill set he could very well be a 40 goal scorer. To prove this he was 5th in one of the top leagues in the world outside of the NHL (a lot of people would rank the Finnish League 2nd or 3rd and stylistically the closest to the NHL of any of the European Leagues). And my final point is he broke a few of Selanne's rookie records while being a full 2 1/2 years younger at the time.

I read as much as I can on him. The only time I got to see him though was at the WJC, besides his SM-Liiga highlights. Everything I read on him knocks his size and speed. And from watching the WJC it was pretty clear why. I just think that his "boom" is a 2nd line winger. There's no doubt he has a ton of talent, which is why I think he'll be a top 6 forward, but I have a hard time projecting a player who is small-ish and slow-ish as a top line player. If he had above average speed or size then I would buy into the 40 goal thing. If you look at the other top forward prospects (Tatar, Jarnkrok, Nyquist, Jurco) they all have a better combination of size and speed, on top of lots of talent, which is why I think at least 1 of those 4 will turn out to be better than Pulkkinen.

#33 cusimano_brothers

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 02:56 PM

Not signing up to be an "ESPN Insider" doesn't necessarily imply that I'm a bad person, does it?

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#34 Shaman

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 02:56 PM

I read as much as I can on him. The only time I got to see him though was at the WJC, besides his SM-Liiga highlights. Everything I read on him knocks his size and speed. And from watching the WJC it was pretty clear why. I just think that his "boom" is a 2nd line winger. There's no doubt he has a ton of talent, which is why I think he'll be a top 6 forward, but I have a hard time projecting a player who is small-ish and slow-ish as a top line player. If he had above average speed or size then I would buy into the 40 goal thing. If you look at the other top forward prospects (Tatar, Jarnkrok, Nyquist, Jurco) they all have a better combination of size and speed, on top of lots of talent, which is why I think at least 1 of those 4 will turn out to be better than Pulkkinen.

The only knock on his skating is his speed, his mechanics are just fine, there is way too much put on speed, especially with wingers, with centres speed is a lot more important, but again if you watch him hes a strong skater, just not fast, again think Zetterberg, Z is strong on his skates, but he is not that fast. Hes like the anti-Filpulla, Flip has pretty good forward speed, but hes easily knocked off his skates and off the puck, when you want Pulu you'll see the opposite, hes very strong on the puck, but hes not that quick.

Edited by Shaman464, 19 July 2011 - 02:57 PM.

Feuer und Wasser kommt nicht zusammen
Kann man nicht binden sind nicht verwandt
In Funken versunken steh ich in Flammen
und bin im Wasser verbrannt
Im Wasser verbrannt

#35 hockey23

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 03:14 PM

The only knock on his skating is his speed, his mechanics are just fine, there is way too much put on speed, especially with wingers, with centres speed is a lot more important, but again if you watch him hes a strong skater, just not fast, again think Zetterberg, Z is strong on his skates, but he is not that fast. Hes like the anti-Filpulla, Flip has pretty good forward speed, but hes easily knocked off his skates and off the puck, when you want Pulu you'll see the opposite, hes very strong on the puck, but hes not that quick.

Fair enough. Who would you compare him to? The only elite player I can really think of who is kind of small and slow is Zetterberg, but he doesn't remind me of Z from what I've seen.

#36 dallas27

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 03:52 PM

The Red Wings are gonna fall. It just depends on what your definition of fall is. Mine is 6th place in the west and a decent shot to win it all in the playoffs. By no means are they the perennial favorites they once were but they are still the Red Wings. Now, when they move to the East it might be a different story.

Can't wait for Pulkkinen

Edited by dallas27, 19 July 2011 - 03:53 PM.



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#37 luvmnger

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 07:46 PM

not every team has its highs and lows....see (st.louis blues)

never high...never low.

always in middle.

the wings hold that same pattern....just higher up than them.
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#38 GSBrooks13

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 09:40 PM

The only things that really ever get old with the Wings are the articles every off season saying how old the Wings are getting.

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#39 Barrie

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 10:02 PM

(I clicked on the link and I'm not an insider)

Wow, so ESPN charges for that kind of inside info? As mentioned, we've been hearing this since the 1999-2000 season when we lost to the Avs in the playoffs the second year in a row. 2 more Stanley Cups later...

Also this article talked about the Red Wings trading away their 1st round draft picks. The reason we've been trading our late 1st round picks is to get two 2nd round picks, giving us a better chance at landing future NHL players. The Wings in recent seasons have been getting high marks for their drafts.

True Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, Cleary, etc. aren't getting any younger, but if this so called "insider" saw that every year there's young players making the team, and sees how Holland has the cap under control ($29 available next year), he'd say we're fine, or just wait and see what the best GM in hockey does.
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#40 RedFX

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Posted 19 July 2011 - 10:43 PM

There's literally an article like this every offseason. I have yet to see any evidence that a Wings collapse will happen in the near future.
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