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#61 P. Marlowe

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 05:46 PM

My first guess is that your post was meant very facetiously.


You might be on to something.




thanks for the really awesome after-school-special advice, but that's my legitimate opinion. i don't want osgood or draper on the team anymore. i'm not the only one.

have to give you +1 for the ridiculous suggestion that posting unpopular viewpoints on a messageboard = dying sad and alone. i like your style.



Christ almighty, can't you read? I already stated that you are entitled to your opinions. Many are agreeing with your opinions. I do agree with you sometimes. It's just that you are expressing your opinions in a prick way, purposedly trying to annoy people.

Edited by P. Marlowe, 20 July 2011 - 05:50 PM.

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#62 eva unit zero

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 07:10 PM

What's even funnier is I got a -2 on my post, but nobody can even argue it. Lol!

Typical LGWs. The guy on the first page said it correctly, if Holland doesn't land all-star players and pay them half their realistic value, he did a poor job and should be fired....

To rebut on your {non} argument in regards to Ericsson, Holland gave a 9th rounder for him. He could easily be traded for a 3rd rounder (in todays market) if he doesn't exceed expectations. Holland is paying less than what he thinks Ericsson will become. See Datsuyk ($6 million) and Kronwall ($3.5 million) salaries. They both were overpaid when Holland re-signed them, now they are some of the best contracts in the NHL. (who are not RFA)

Holland and brass think Ericsson has loads of untapped potential (i.e. Datsyuk, Kronwall), while LGWs think he doesn't have anymore potential. Who do you think Vegas would bet on, LGWs analysis or Holland and brass analysis? They'll sway to the best hockey minds in the world and pick Holland and Co.

And... if in the unlikely event Ericsson doesn't meet expectations, Holland could easily flip that 9th rounder for a 3rd rounder (maybe more). So in that scenario, not only would Red Wings get a serviceable dman (who never put any salary restraints against the team since Holland has more cap space than he knows what to do with), but he can also magically turn a 9th round pick into a 3rd round pick.

I would flip 9th round picks for 3rd rounders any day of the week, only LGWs would complain and cry about it...

Keep the brilliant arguments coming folks... or if you don't have any hockey intelligence, just click the - / minus button and ignore the facts in my posts and keep on living in your fantasy and continue on playing your NHL 11.


Jonathan Ericsson is not even a top-four defenseman on the team, and with the addition of Commodore and Kindl having more experience, he is in real danger of losing a regular spot on the roster. Datsyuk was a first liner and established star when he signed his contract, Kronwall was the #3 defenseman on a team that would win the Stanley Cup the following season. Datsyuk was 29, Kronwall was 26. Ericsson is 27. Datsyuk improved a bit over where he was before signing. Kronwall moved into his prime and had more significant improvement. Ericsson is between the two in age range. Ericsson is not likely to improve considerably; small improvements in his game are what we should hope for and expect. He will hopefully develop over the next three years into a defenseman similar to what Lilja was for the Wings, but with better skating and puck skills. I think this is also part of the logic behind the Commodore signing; he will help Ericsson develop in that direction while Salei could not.

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#63 GMRwings1983

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 09:16 PM

I'll give him a C.

We didn't have many "big" free agents we needed to re-sign, other than Lidstrom, who wasn't going anywhere else and whose decision to return was solely his. Hence, Holland didn't keep any of our stars from leaving. Also, he overpaid Ericsson terribly, so I'm being generous in this paragraph when it comes to our free agent re-signings.

Likewise, he didn't make any significant enough moves with free agents to get a better grade. He merely added some depth.

We still need some more size in our bottom 6 forwards, and less injury plagued older players on our top 6. Those things haven't been addressed.

Edited by GMRwings1983, 20 July 2011 - 09:21 PM.

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#64 Heaten

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 09:17 PM


Jonathan Ericsson is not even a top-four defenseman on the team, and with the addition of Commodore and Kindl having more experience, he is in real danger of losing a regular spot on the roster. Datsyuk was a first liner and established star when he signed his contract, Kronwall was the #3 defenseman on a team that would win the Stanley Cup the following season. Datsyuk was 29, Kronwall was 26. Ericsson is 27. Datsyuk improved a bit over where he was before signing. Kronwall moved into his prime and had more significant improvement. Ericsson is between the two in age range. Ericsson is not likely to improve considerably; small improvements in his game are what we should hope for and expect. He will hopefully develop over the next three years into a defenseman similar to what Lilja was for the Wings, but with better skating and puck skills. I think this is also part of the logic behind the Commodore signing; he will help Ericsson develop in that direction while Salei could not.


Your argument is more of a "hindsight is always 20/20" thing. The point is, people were complaining about both contracts; (Datsyuk and Kronwall) on LGWs. I would argue that Ericsson was the only only player that showed up in the 2009 SCF game #7 as he scored the only goal for Detroit. Ericsson also was the 2nd best in the +/- among defensemen last season. Lastly, $.3.5 million today is like $2 million in 2007 and Kronwall scored a $3 million contract in '08.

My original point is like Datsyuk and Kronwall, Ericsson's contract looks high right now, but it will be looked back as a bargain in the same hindsight is 20/20 that you are using for Datsyuk and Kronwall today... Worse case scenario, in the unlikely event that Ericsson doesn't make the expected leap, Holland can flip him for a 3rd rounder. So what does Holland lose? Nothing. What does Holland gain? 9th rounder traded for a 3rd rounder. That is called an asset and profit. Especially since Ericsson's contract isn't even hampering the team's salary cap.

#65 joshy207

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 10:08 PM

My grade for Holland on this off-season so far? C, maybe C-. Based largely on this: He said after the playoffs that the Wings "need to get better". (Sorry, I don't have a source or a direct quote, but I think most of you remember him saying that after losing to San Jose again.) Has this team gotten better? I say NO.

The only change at forward is Conner for Draper. Conner may not make tbe big club, so it could be Mursak or Emmerton instead. You lose a little in intangibles with Draper's expected departure (faceoffs, experience) but you do get younger. Unfortunately Mursak and Emmerton have very little experience in the NHL, but they haven't been able to bump anyone out of a spot in the lineup. Whether or not they're NHL players remains to be seen. I do like Eaves and Miller returning, both contracts are good too. No moves have been made to improve the top 2 lines, but there weren't a lot of players available. Nobody seemed to want what the Wings had to offer in a trade. So for now we're the exact same as last year up front.

Losing Rafalski apparently was a surprise (I had heard a rumor from an insider in April or May that he'd be done) and he was not truly replaced. White is nowhere near similar to Rafalski, but he is a defensive upgrade, so that's good. Re-signing Lidstrom was an absolute no-brainer and required zero effort on Holland's part, so I'm not going to gush over how great of a job he did bringing Nick back. As was already said, the choice was Lidstrom's. I was honestly pissed to see Ericsson re-signed, especially at that price. I don't think he's good at all and I think they'll regret that deal. Maybe I'll be wrong though. Commodore's a nice replacement for Salei. Kindl needs to see more time or his development will stall or regress, and I hope there's a way to get Smith in a dozen or so games with decent icetime in all situations (15-18 minutes?) After losing Rafalski, I was disappointed to see the Wings do nothing while impending free agents' rights were dealt before July 1. Yes, some of the contracts are bloated. So was the salary cap this year with the NBC/VS TV deal and the continued strength of the Canadian dollar. If Ericsson's a "value" at his money, then most of the free agents were equal values at their deals. IMO. Overall, the Wings will lose some offense from the back end, but they'll be better in their own zone, which could pick up 5 or 6 points over the course of the year. Less mistakes, less blown coverages, less turnovers... all would be nice to see.

Goaltending, Conklin's a decent backup and it really was time for Osgood to move on. I'm not sure who was Holland's first choice though... notice it was left up to Osgood to "tell Holland he couldn't guarantee he'd stay healthy" this season. So did Holland tell Ozzie he'd re-sign him if he wanted to come back, or did Holland let it seem like Osgood went out on his own terms? I can honestly see both happening. Either way, we can look at it as a noble move by one of the parties involved.

I was disappointed with the lack of activity in the days leading up to, and the first week or so of free agency. The grade can go up if a trade or moderately significant signing is pulled off... but I stand by my C/C-.

#66 ben_usmc

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 11:07 PM

I'd give a B. Holland obviously knows the Defense needed a lot of help, however he overpaid Ericsson by offering him a contract in the 1st place. But White is a good replacement for Raffy (especially when he was declining). I also liked Commedore so getting him for cheap and as a utility I really think is a good move. Conklin liked it here, the team is familiar with him and last time he was here he played great.

Plus I'm happy to have the cap space. I would however like most like to see him bring in a bruiser, but it's not a huge deal for me. I just didn't like that Datsyuk/Howard were our enforcers, how the f*** you let someone take shots at either of those 2 and not go ape s*** is beyond me.
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#67 evilmrt

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 11:10 PM

B-

He had some good signings, and didn't make any HUGE missteps, but the Ericsson deal was a huge overpayment. And he could have been more aggressive with regards to the backup goalie situation.

And Hudler is still on the team.

#68 Carman

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 12:34 AM

He was conservative.

It would be unfair to judge him considering he's still got 6 million? left of cap room. It all depends on what he does with that so far I'll give him a B, but depending on what else he does it can go to an F quick and A+.

#69 Konnan511

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 05:18 AM

He gets a B+ for what he's had to work with.
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#70 xtrememachine1

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 07:16 AM

Its kind of tough to grade him on this off season. He had money to spend, but there wasn't really anything out there and what was out there got overpaid. The Ericsson signing I'm not wild about, nor the Commodore one either, but White and Conklin were solid acquisitions and I think the goal of this off season was to not overpay for mediocre talent with a better UFA class coming up next season. I'd have to give him a B-. The resigning of Ericsson is risky as their betting on him reaching his potential very soon and I'm not thrilled about Commodore. I would much rather have a more proven defenseman for a year like McCabe or Hannan.

#71 AtomicPunk

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 07:56 AM

My whole thing is this...I see other GM's stealing players like Burns or Heatley and I know Kenny has the skills to pull one of these off...That's why I am a little frustrated to see those other players going elsewhere instead of here. I know everyone can't come here, but...It's not just UFA's, there are trades that can be made. Let go of a few of those precious draft picks. Gotta think outside the box and go after the players that fit the needs of your team. The other GM's proved it.

Edited by AtomicPunk, 21 July 2011 - 08:01 AM.

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#72 mmamolo

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 08:08 AM

Maybe in your mind, but clearly that is not true. Wiz may be a loudmouth, but you can bet there are a lot of other players feel like he does too, they just aren't out there putting their foot in their mouth making public statements about it.

Fact is, whenther we like to beleive it or not, a lot of players play for the sole reasone of the money, and would not sign with Detroit, because they feel the same as Wiz. And some players just flat out don't like Detroit and wouldn't sign here period. I know, shocking, right?


As far as Kenny, I probably give him a B/B-

I completely agree that a lot of players probably think the same way about Detroit as Wisniewski. But to me it's those types of players who tend to overvalue themselves in terms of both role on the team and money. Personally, I wouldn't really want that type of player on my team if I were a GM. It speaks volumes when figuring out what these players really play for. I'm not saying you cant want money and to win the cup but when players determine their value based on the free agent class and then get overpaid well that's not true market value.

Its kind of tough to grade him on this off season. He had money to spend, but there wasn't really anything out there and what was out there got overpaid. The Ericsson signing I'm not wild about, nor the Commodore one either, but White and Conklin were solid acquisitions and I think the goal of this off season was to not overpay for mediocre talent with a better UFA class coming up next season. I'd have to give him a B-. The resigning of Ericsson is risky as their betting on him reaching his potential very soon and I'm not thrilled about Commodore. I would much rather have a more proven defenseman for a year like McCabe or Hannan.

Assuming McCabe or Hannan would come here for a year.

I think that Holland was pretty shrewd with his money because he knows how much it's going to cost him next summer to re-sign Kronwall and Stuart and find a replacement for Lidstrom (assuming he retires). It's not that he needs to save cash on this year's cap but it's that he has to save next season's cap hit for players he could have signed this summer. Meaning, the chances of any of these players coming here on one year deals are slim. If he signed an Ehroff or Wisniewski that's 4-6M of unavailable money/cap space next summer.
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#73 13dangledangle

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 09:10 AM

I like what Holland has done as a whole here. He has kept cap space, has inked key players at key prices (Commy, White, Eaves, Miller, Conklin & I'll even say Ericsson although we all are on the fence a little) then he added a good core of minor guys as well (Joey Mac, Conner, Pyett, Exelby). When I look at the team on paper it looks real good, just jump onto a blueadams thread to see some lines for yourself.

What we need here now imo is a quality scorer. Continuing with the same non-handcuffing approach he has so far I wouldnt be apposed to inking Teemu for a 1 year deal, he's coming off a 31g and 49a season. I've never thought about him every coming here until this morning so who knows, but he can score so thats my starting point.


Edit: I give Holland an A as to the disasters he avoided by being cool hand luke in this years market. Good job Wings brass

Edited by 13dangledangle, 21 July 2011 - 09:12 AM.

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#74 mjlegend

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 09:16 AM

Which big winger with a scoring touch is available? Everyone is either locked up or was signed to a ridiculous contract. See Erik Cole for details on the latter.



Alright. So I guess you'd rather have had him do one of the following:

1) Conjure a magical Rafalski-equivalent from out of this offseason's horrid UFA class.
2) Woefully overpay either Ehrhoff or Wizniewski (note that the latter apparently did not want to play for Detroit).

Sometimes things just aren't possible. Though we've become accustomed to having an excellent team every season, sometimes options don't present themselves.


And sometimes you have to be aggressive or the opportunities present themselves to other teams.

We lost a very good offensive player on the blueline - one of the best in the last ten years - and we didn't replace him with anything but the hopes that the #6 from last year (Ericsson) gets better because he has a bigger contract and Ian White.

So we have the same/slightly worse team as/than last year, plus $6 million in cap room. I don't call that a very good off-season.

#75 Konnan511

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 10:23 AM

And sometimes you have to be aggressive or the opportunities present themselves to other teams.

We lost a very good offensive player on the blueline - one of the best in the last ten years - and we didn't replace him with anything but the hopes that the #6 from last year (Ericsson) gets better because he has a bigger contract and Ian White.

So we have the same/slightly worse team as/than last year, plus $6 million in cap room. I don't call that a very good off-season.


What realistically would you do then to improve the team, that would be beneficial now, as well as the future of the team?
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#76 stevkrause

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 10:38 AM

What realistically would you do then to improve the team, that would be beneficial now, as well as the future of the team?

Exactly.

The only 3 d-men that I wanted, that we didn't go after were:
Bieksa - Re-signed in Van and never hit FA, nor showed a desire to go anywhere else
Wisnieski - Not at that price tag
Montador - Not at that price tag

As I've been saying, Holland did the right thing... the only black mark he made as far as I'm concerned is overpaying E, but even that was an effect of the market and he would've probably gotten more on the open market and we retained an asset... White was a bargain and fits nicely, Eaves was a steal and so was Conklin...

This has already been a good off-season and our team did NOT get worse, I can see an argument that we basically stayed even, but we did not drop in talent level... I still expect to see a trade before camp too and if not then, I guarantee one will come at the deadline...

All I have to say about Holland and our off-season:

Here in this thread

Here in this one as well

Here in this one too

and finally

Here


Holland is a damn good GM. period.


#77 13dangledangle

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 11:15 AM

Exactly.

The only 3 d-men that I wanted, that we didn't go after were:
Bieksa - Re-signed in Van and never hit FA, nor showed a desire to go anywhere else
Wisnieski - Not at that price tag
Montador - Not at that price tag

As I've been saying, Holland did the right thing... the only black mark he made as far as I'm concerned is overpaying E, but even that was an effect of the market and he would've probably gotten more on the open market and we retained an asset... White was a bargain and fits nicely, Eaves was a steal and so was Conklin...

This has already been a good off-season and our team did NOT get worse, I can see an argument that we basically stayed even, but we did not drop in talent level... I still expect to see a trade before camp too and if not then, I guarantee one will come at the deadline...


I agree completely with this. For now the black mark over Ericsson is more of a question mark. If he comes out (not likely but he could) and plays wise like in 09 and tough like he showed he can then Ill even be happy with him. Its a long shot but I'll for one have my fingers crossed!

Edited by 13dangledangle, 21 July 2011 - 11:16 AM.

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#78 Heroes of Hockeytown

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 11:40 AM

To Be Determined. With the cap space left over he can make any move he wants at the trade deadline, assuming he's okay with dealing assets. Or with the Rafalski space added to what will probably be Lidstrom's space next offseason, he has a truly enormous amount of room to sign anyone and everyone as replacements. What he does next year will impact what I think about his moves (or lack thereof) this year.
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#79 9-HoweFan

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 12:00 PM

To Be Determined. With the cap space left over he can make any move he wants at the trade deadline, assuming he's okay with dealing assets. Or with the Rafalski space added to what will probably be Lidstrom's space next offseason, he has a truly enormous amount of room to sign anyone and everyone as replacements. What he does next year will impact what I think about his moves (or lack thereof) this year.


I agree with the "bold" part. This year I think was just about maintaining a similar team as last season. Which is still a very good team BTW. With his non-overspending (except for E), he's put himself in a 2-hit position. He can either hit (1) the trade deadline hard this season, and has salary room to do it. Or wait to hit (2) next year's UFA market to really update the look of the Wings. (if rumors are true, they will be in a new division and will need to bulk up in size)

This year's class of forwards for very light anyway. I'm glad he did what he did with Commodore & White, not so much Ericsson (though I thought it was out of necessity), Conklin is a safe back-up choice.

Next season may be the one with the most changes.

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#80 ReallyHuh

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 12:18 PM

While the free agency pool was not nearly as deep this year as it has been in years past, people need to remember that GM's can also make player trades. It's not as if the free agent market is the only way of obtaining new blood.

This again is why I am giving Holland a solid C. He did nothing to make the team better. Lidstrom, Eaves, and Miller all wanted to come back (Lidstrom's decision was his own, not Hollands), and their signings in no way were "hard work" for Holland. Commie, White and Conner were decent signings (the best in terms of likely output being White), but other then that he really didn't do much at all.

He definitely didn't do a bad job, but I do not see how he could be given an A for what he did. An A would mean he excelled this offseason, which really insn't the case. He kept the ship together and added a couple cogs to our back end - again, not a bad job, but far from "excellent".

I have a weird feeling though there is still a trade coming - one to bring in another top 6 forward. I could and probably am living in the smoke of a pipe dream, I just have a feeling Holland is not done. And if that is the case, I will of course have to re grade.
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