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#81 Crymson

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 12:24 PM

While the free agency pool was not nearly as deep this year as it has been in years past, people need to remember that GM's can also make player trades. It's not as if the free agent market is the only way of obtaining new blood.


And this is an arbitrary statement. It assumes that advantageous trades are available.

#82 ReallyHuh

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 12:32 PM

And this is an arbitrary statement. It assumes that advantageous trades are available.


There were trades available for Philly, Columbus, San Jose, Minnesota, Panthers, Kings, etc.

They may not be trades you would have wanted, but they do illustrate that there are trades available. You have to give to get, and getting better then you give is one thing that warrants an A rating for a teams general manager.

Edited by ReallyHuh, 21 July 2011 - 12:33 PM.

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#83 SwedeLundin77

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 12:39 PM

There were trades available for Philly, Columbus, San Jose, Minnesota, Panthers, Kings, etc.

They may not be trades you would have wanted, but they do illustrate that there are trades available. You have to give to get, and getting better then you give is one thing that warrants an A rating for a teams general manager.


Yeah... you see the assets given up in those trades were just a tad more than we really have to give. We have some very strong prospects, but most of them are not NHL ready, and that is what most of those trades required.

The offseason is not over yet and a trade could still be coming. I give Holland a B, but I still will withhold the true grade until the offseason is OFFICIALLY over.

#84 Heaten

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 01:37 PM

My whole thing is this...I see other GM's stealing players like Burns or Heatley and I know Kenny has the skills to pull one of these off...That's why I am a little frustrated to see those other players going elsewhere instead of here. I know everyone can't come here, but...It's not just UFA's, there are trades that can be made. Let go of a few of those precious draft picks. Gotta think outside the box and go after the players that fit the needs of your team. The other GM's proved it.


The problem with you logic is Burns wasn't 'stonlen', Sharks gave up more talent and assets than Detroit could ever afford to give..., and no, contrary to popular belief on LGWs, Wild did not want Hudler + Kindl and a 5th. Lol!

First of all, Devin Setoguchi took a home team discount to be on the Sharks, only to be a sign and trade. Players around the league frown on such tactics and that will burn lots of bridges. Second of all, Sharks gave up a high-end prospect in Charlie Coyle and a first-round pick! Setoguchi has more value than Filppula, so Holland would need to throw in some talent to sweeten the deal. Perhaps Darren Helm? + Filppula, Brendan Smith and a 1st rounder. How is that a steal? That'sf****** robbery if you ask me. I think Smith will be a superior and more valuable defenseman than Burns ever will.

So if anything, you should be THANKING Holland for not being stupid and jumping on the "OMG, panic, panic, I got to trade the future for an above average defenseman" train that most of LGWs are on.

Secondly, why the hell would you want to waste cap space on Heatley? He's a good player, but way overpaid for what he brings to the post-season. He doesn't even skate like he use to, he looks slow(er), and he's a player that depends on speed. Is his body breaking down or is he just lazy? I'm not sure, but he looks like broken goods.



#85 Heaten

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 02:00 PM

While the free agency pool was not nearly as deep this year as it has been in years past, people need to remember that GM's can also make player trades. It's not as if the free agent market is the only way of obtaining new blood.

This again is why I am giving Holland a solid C. He did nothing to make the team better. Lidstrom, Eaves, and Miller all wanted to come back (Lidstrom's decision was his own, not Hollands), and their signings in no way were "hard work" for Holland. Commie, White and Conner were decent signings (the best in terms of likely output being White), but other then that he really didn't do much at all.

He definitely didn't do a bad job, but I do not see how he could be given an A for what he did. An A would mean he excelled this offseason, which really insn't the case. He kept the ship together and added a couple cogs to our back end - again, not a bad job, but far from "excellent".

I have a weird feeling though there is still a trade coming - one to bring in another top 6 forward. I could and probably am living in the smoke of a pipe dream, I just have a feeling Holland is not done. And if that is the case, I will of course have to re grade.


The problem with your theory is while Holland could have made trades, it would plug a hole while creating two new holes. Detroit doesn't have lots of assets unless you trade players you don't want to trade. Of course Holland could have probably traded Filppula, Kronwall, Helm, or Smith, but outside of that who? Trading any of those players, you just created new (bigger) holes.

Smith is our future, so why trade him? He's going to be a core player in a couple years.

Helm is a unique type player and a fireball, he's the type of player you need to win championships.

Kronwall's contract is arguably one of the best contract (cap hits) in the entire league. His cap hit is only $3 million, Holland can't replace him for under $6 million per year. So why trade him?

Filppula is a great player, but overpaid. He's not even a 20 goal guy. He's a good two-way guy, and a borderline 2nd liner. He doesn't really have lots of 'trade value' unless you package him up with a Darren Helm or a Brendan Smith. Then after you trade him, a new hole just opened up. He's an integral piece to Detroit's 2008 cup win, and was just as important in the 2009 run. He's a solid depth guy that helps Red Wings win championships.

I guess Franzen could be trade bait, but to be honest, I don't think he has much value. He's a playoff beast when healthy, but that's the problem, the guy is made of glass and has what... 9 years left on his contract? So perhaps Holland could offer him for an overpaid fringe 2nd liner that disappears in the playoffs, but what's the point? Aren't the Detroit Red Wings playing for the playoffs? Why trade the 2nd best playoff performer on the team for a fringe 2nd liner who will probably disappear?

I think people over-value the assets on this team. Detroit is a good team because the way it's built and the core (Lids, Dats, Zetterberg) with good supporting cast that compliment each other. Detroit doesn't have any real assets unless you want to package up some type of crazy deal just to trade (i.e. Helm, Kronwall, Smith).

There's no point in trading unless Holland can get a steal... but, unfortunately, that only happens on NHL11 or HFboards "trade proposal" message boards..

#86 Konnan511

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 02:29 PM

My whole thing is this...I see other GM's stealing players like Burns or Heatley and I know Kenny has the skills to pull one of these off...That's why I am a little frustrated to see those other players going elsewhere instead of here. I know everyone can't come here, but...It's not just UFA's, there are trades that can be made. Let go of a few of those precious draft picks. Gotta think outside the box and go after the players that fit the needs of your team. The other GM's proved it.


Stealing Burns? The Sharks got burned on that deal. We would have needed to throw Smith, Filppula, and a 1st at them just to not have their GM laugh in our face. Totally not worth it. I'm glad at the moves Kenny has made and the moves he hasn't made.

Remind me the last time the Sharks or Wild were relevant or won anything? Sweet, 7 straight years of the playoffs with zero SCF appearances in their entire franchises life. The Wild are even more of a joke.

I like having a GM who builds a successful franchise that competes year in and year out while ensuring our future is safe. You better believe with Lidstrom probably retiring next season, he'll have some Aces up his sleeve come the trade deadline/ NHL Draft/ UFA FA.
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#87 ReallyHuh

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 10:00 PM

The problem with your theory is while Holland could have made trades, it would plug a hole while creating two new holes. Detroit doesn't have lots of assets unless you trade players you don't want to trade. Of course Holland could have probably traded Filppula, Kronwall, Helm, or Smith, but outside of that who? Trading any of those players, you just created new (bigger) holes.

Smith is our future, so why trade him? He's going to be a core player in a couple years.

Helm is a unique type player and a fireball, he's the type of player you need to win championships.

Kronwall's contract is arguably one of the best contract (cap hits) in the entire league. His cap hit is only $3 million, Holland can't replace him for under $6 million per year. So why trade him?

Filppula is a great player, but overpaid. He's not even a 20 goal guy. He's a good two-way guy, and a borderline 2nd liner. He doesn't really have lots of 'trade value' unless you package him up with a Darren Helm or a Brendan Smith. Then after you trade him, a new hole just opened up. He's an integral piece to Detroit's 2008 cup win, and was just as important in the 2009 run. He's a solid depth guy that helps Red Wings win championships.

I guess Franzen could be trade bait, but to be honest, I don't think he has much value. He's a playoff beast when healthy, but that's the problem, the guy is made of glass and has what... 9 years left on his contract? So perhaps Holland could offer him for an overpaid fringe 2nd liner that disappears in the playoffs, but what's the point? Aren't the Detroit Red Wings playing for the playoffs? Why trade the 2nd best playoff performer on the team for a fringe 2nd liner who will probably disappear?

I think people over-value the assets on this team. Detroit is a good team because the way it's built and the core (Lids, Dats, Zetterberg) with good supporting cast that compliment each other. Detroit doesn't have any real assets unless you want to package up some type of crazy deal just to trade (i.e. Helm, Kronwall, Smith).

There's no point in trading unless Holland can get a steal... but, unfortunately, that only happens on NHL11 or HFboards "trade proposal" message boards..


I understand that and wasn't saying he should have made a trade persay, rather illustrating that there were other routes a GM could take to bring a guy in opposed to free agency.

I also agree with you about our traceable assets, or the lack thereof.

All that said, I gave him a C because we didn't get Amy better as a team -- which in my opinion would warrant an A or B. On the flipside, I don't think we got worse as a team or let anyone "get away" -- if that was the case I would have given him a D or an F.

He did an average job, which is a C. Nothing horrible, nothing great, but average.

Edited by ReallyHuh, 21 July 2011 - 10:04 PM.

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#88 IllinoisRedWingsFan

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 10:35 PM

A Solid B.

I really think they are only one or two pieces of away. One of them is a top 4 D-man like Rafalski and another top 6 forward.

#89 Diluvian04

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 08:50 AM

A Solid B.

I really think they are only one or two pieces of away. One of them is a top 4 D-man like Rafalski and another top 6 forward.


I agree. I think those two pieces are kinda big but with the money we still have it's entirely possible that we could get a stud come trade deadline. Holland didn't sell the farm to get any player that was worth it and I think that is what makes a good GM. Someone who doesn't follow the hype of mediocre players and does not foolishly react to other teams actions. I will say though that Holland tends to under value players from time to time. Just a perception though. He is the GM, not me.

#90 Heaten

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 12:45 PM

A Solid B.

I really think they are only one or two pieces of away. One of them is a top 4 D-man like Rafalski and another top 6 forward.


D-men like Rafalski are rare and hard to obtain. He's an extremely offensive dman. Unless Holland can land Mike Green, we're better off playing better defensively and win games 3-2 instead of 5-4. From what I notice, Ian White is better defensively and more physical than Rafalski, but not nearly as good offensively...

On paper, the the defense looks pretty good. I do hope Holland lands a more gritty top 6 forward that's not afraid to go to the scoring areas... but I don't know who.

#91 Crymson

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Posted 22 July 2011 - 12:54 PM

A Solid B.

I really think they are only one or two pieces of away. One of them is a top 4 D-man like Rafalski and another top 6 forward.


Sometimes it's the mark of a good GM to not horribly overpay and lock in bad pieces for the immediate future when it would be a bad move in the long term.

#92 IllinoisRedWingsFan

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Posted 23 July 2011 - 06:37 PM

D-men like Rafalski are rare and hard to obtain. He's an extremely offensive dman. Unless Holland can land Mike Green, we're better off playing better defensively and win games 3-2 instead of 5-4. From what I notice, Ian White is better defensively and more physical than Rafalski, but not nearly as good offensively...

On paper, the the defense looks pretty good. I do hope Holland lands a more gritty top 6 forward that's not afraid to go to the scoring areas... but I don't know who.

Good Points. I think Ian White will be a good fit for this team. I really do.

#93 DMAC 25

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Posted 23 July 2011 - 10:58 PM

B like everyone else seems to be saying that 6 million is going to be real nice at the trade deadline, he filled the holes we needed to fill with solid players, no need to go out and drop 2 million on players like jagr who could have a terrible season

#94 Hockeytown0001

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 09:32 AM

He's done well. Solid B+.

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#95 eva unit zero

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 08:47 PM

Assuming the offseason is over with Draper's retirement, then here is my analysis.

From last year's roster, we have the following changes:

Mike Modano - retired; replaced by Cory Emmerton
Kris Draper - retired; replaced by Jan Mursak

Brian Rafalski - retired; replaced by Ian White
Jonathan Ericsson - re-signed
Ruslan Salei - UFA; replaced by Mike Commodore

Chris Osgood - retired; replaced by Ty Conklin

Modano was not playing in the top 12 at the end of the season. And the way he had been playing all year was no significant improvement over what Emmerton is likely to bring. Win.

Draper missed part of the season, and was effective offensively when he first came back, but ultimately he was a spare part alongside Modano, rotating in occasionally. Mursak brings the speedy grinding game Draper built a career on, his only loss is the faceoffs. Mursak also has offensive capability if Babcock wants to add speed to the scoring lines. Win.

Rafalski had become somewhat injury prone and was not the slick skater he used to be, which was affecting his defensive game. But his overall game, due largely to his offensive prowess, placed him still as one of the league's better defensemen and a legit #1 defenseman on most teams. White brings the kind of skating Rafalski used to have and is an aggressive player and effective shot blocker, but his offensive game is basically a 'B' version of Rafalski. There weren't many options that could have been called a win, so while this is an overall downgrade in performance I am going to call this a Win due to the fact that White was perhaps the best option available to replace Rafalski.

Salei had basically played himself out of the lineup by the end of the season, and only played during the playoffs because he was a veteran and Kindl was a rookie. Commodore is a definite upgrade in physical game and defensive game, and that's what matters for the role required. Win.

Osgood had definitely been playing better after a couple of off seasons. Unfortunately, there has to be a "when healthy" in there for this past season. A healthy Osgood is better than some starters and just about every backup, but a healthy Ozzie isn't available. Win.

There's not much Holland could have done better this offseason, so it's hard for me to grade him down. You can make the argument that he has a lot of cap space so he should have signed someone; but the CBA expires next summer and Holland likely wants to save cap space because the cap will probably be lowered.

So re-signing Ericsson, the addition of two young Wing forwards who could be top-sixers in a few years, upgrading the third pair, signing a very solid backup, and replacing Rafalski with the best possible option available. That to me gets Holland an A-; the Ericsson contract should have been dealt with sooner, and no sign of any attempt to get a top offensive d-man before.

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#96 ReallyHuh

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 02:00 AM

Assuming the offseason is over with Draper's retirement, then here is my analysis.

From last year's roster, we have the following changes:

Mike Modano - retired; replaced by Cory Emmerton
Kris Draper - retired; replaced by Jan Mursak

Brian Rafalski - retired; replaced by Ian White
Jonathan Ericsson - re-signed
Ruslan Salei - UFA; replaced by Mike Commodore

Chris Osgood - retired; replaced by Ty Conklin

Modano was not playing in the top 12 at the end of the season. And the way he had been playing all year was no significant improvement over what Emmerton is likely to bring. Win.

Draper missed part of the season, and was effective offensively when he first came back, but ultimately he was a spare part alongside Modano, rotating in occasionally. Mursak brings the speedy grinding game Draper built a career on, his only loss is the faceoffs. Mursak also has offensive capability if Babcock wants to add speed to the scoring lines. Win.

Rafalski had become somewhat injury prone and was not the slick skater he used to be, which was affecting his defensive game. But his overall game, due largely to his offensive prowess, placed him still as one of the league's better defensemen and a legit #1 defenseman on most teams. White brings the kind of skating Rafalski used to have and is an aggressive player and effective shot blocker, but his offensive game is basically a 'B' version of Rafalski. There weren't many options that could have been called a win, so while this is an overall downgrade in performance I am going to call this a Win due to the fact that White was perhaps the best option available to replace Rafalski.

Salei had basically played himself out of the lineup by the end of the season, and only played during the playoffs because he was a veteran and Kindl was a rookie. Commodore is a definite upgrade in physical game and defensive game, and that's what matters for the role required. Win.

Osgood had definitely been playing better after a couple of off seasons. Unfortunately, there has to be a "when healthy" in there for this past season. A healthy Osgood is better than some starters and just about every backup, but a healthy Ozzie isn't available. Win.

There's not much Holland could have done better this offseason, so it's hard for me to grade him down. You can make the argument that he has a lot of cap space so he should have signed someone; but the CBA expires next summer and Holland likely wants to save cap space because the cap will probably be lowered.

So re-signing Ericsson, the addition of two young Wing forwards who could be top-sixers in a few years, upgrading the third pair, signing a very solid backup, and replacing Rafalski with the best possible option available. That to me gets Holland an A-; the Ericsson contract should have been dealt with sooner, and no sign of any attempt to get a top offensive d-man before.


White for Rafalski, win? I know you are trying to make a point, and bend a lot of things in doing so, but I am going to have to whole heartedly disagree with you on this one. There is no way White will replicate Rafalski's 48 point, +11 season (and that was last year, by far his worst year)

I am curious what your source is in citing that "the cap will probably be lowered" next year?

Everything I have read leads to the exact opposite of your statement. You see the cap is directly reliant on league revenues, since the league has been increasing their profits, the cap has continued to rise. Projections are holding historically steady in a continue rise in revenue next year, hence another cap bump - just as there has been every year since the lockout.

The ONLY way the cap will be lowered is if the league revenues flat line or dip -- which, with the past 7 years as an indicator, ain't going to happen.

And lastly, there is quite literally ZERO change that either Emmerton or Mursak ever see the top 6. Nada, zip, zero, zilch chance. Both will be career 4th liners, and in my opinion, neither will make the team better. Not saying Draper or Modano were better, just pointing out that the inclusion of Mursak and Emmerton into the lineup will not make the team "better".

I do agree that Commadore is an upgrade over Salei, however think the Ericsson signing was an absolute joke. How can people applaud Holland for "not overpaying" with a straight face and give him a good grade with this decision?
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#97 Packer487

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 02:50 AM

I vote B+.

Loved, loved, LOVED the Ian White signing, especially for that price.
I love that he brought back Eaves.
Commodore is fine for what we paid.
Conklin was a nice pickup and I like that he cut the cord with Osgood, just because he was a really high injury risk at this point in his career. It was time for Drapes to pack it in as well.

On the downside, he overpaid Ericsson, though probably not by a ton with regard to what other players were going for. And I think Drew Miller is a dime-a-dozen player. I don't see the need to pay more than the league minimum for a guy like that. Still, that's a minor issue.

I like that we still have flexibility under the cap. I'm curious to see what, if anything, he does (or if he banks it for the new CBA or when the FA crop next year comes around).

I feel like the team is probably slightly worse than they were last year, but I also think that's a team that could've won the Cup if they stayed relatively-healthy in the playoffs. White might not replace Rafalski, but for the money he did about as well as he could've.

#98 SouthernWingsFan

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 10:59 AM

White for Rafalski, win? I know you are trying to make a point, and bend a lot of things in doing so, but I am going to have to whole heartedly disagree with you on this one. There is no way White will replicate Rafalski's 48 point, +11 season (and that was last year, by far his worst year)

I am curious what your source is in citing that "the cap will probably be lowered" next year?

Everything I have read leads to the exact opposite of your statement. You see the cap is directly reliant on league revenues, since the league has been increasing their profits, the cap has continued to rise. Projections are holding historically steady in a continue rise in revenue next year, hence another cap bump - just as there has been every year since the lockout.

The ONLY way the cap will be lowered is if the league revenues flat line or dip -- which, with the past 7 years as an indicator, ain't going to happen.

And lastly, there is quite literally ZERO change that either Emmerton or Mursak ever see the top 6. Nada, zip, zero, zilch chance. Both will be career 4th liners, and in my opinion, neither will make the team better. Not saying Draper or Modano were better, just pointing out that the inclusion of Mursak and Emmerton into the lineup will not make the team "better".

I do agree that Commadore is an upgrade over Salei, however think the Ericsson signing was an absolute joke. How can people applaud Holland for "not overpaying" with a straight face and give him a good grade with this decision?

On Ericsson, at first I raised an eyebrow like pretty much everybody else at the amount Ericsson was offered. I would've been glad to have him back, but I didn't think he was worth that much.

But when you look at all the ridiculous overpayments to free agents those first few days of crazy free agency, it makes it a little bit easier to take. With that in mind, I would not have been shocked if Ericsson would've been offered more on the market by another team. It's just that Holland re-signed him first before a lot of the absurd overpayments happened and before a lot of the smoke cleared, hence most people in here going bats**t for better/worse.

Also, keep in mind that Datsyuk and Krownall at the times when they were offered their current contracts, they really underperformed some as well when it counts most in the post-season and a lot of people were going bats**t then about their contracts. Now, those deals are looking better and better every day. Now, I don't think Ericsson has that same potential as Datsyuk and Kronwall, but I still think he has room to improve. Hopefully in due time, he will live up to this contract. Unfortuantely, we won't know if that will happen yet.

#99 ReallyHuh

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 04:36 PM

On Ericsson, at first I raised an eyebrow like pretty much everybody else at the amount Ericsson was offered. I would've been glad to have him back, but I didn't think he was worth that much.

But when you look at all the ridiculous overpayments to free agents those first few days of crazy free agency, it makes it a little bit easier to take. With that in mind, I would not have been shocked if Ericsson would've been offered more on the market by another team. It's just that Holland re-signed him first before a lot of the absurd overpayments happened and before a lot of the smoke cleared, hence most people in here going bats**t for better/worse.

Also, keep in mind that Datsyuk and Krownall at the times when they were offered their current contracts, they really underperformed some as well when it counts most in the post-season and a lot of people were going bats**t then about their contracts. Now, those deals are looking better and better every day. Now, I don't think Ericsson has that same potential as Datsyuk and Kronwall, but I still think he has room to improve. Hopefully in due time, he will live up to this contract. Unfortuantely, we won't know if that will happen yet.


Fair enough. You actually make pretty strong points that have me less peeved over the signing.
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#100 chrisdetroit

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Posted 31 July 2011 - 03:21 PM

The people on here complaining that we overpaid for Big E are probably the same that were bitching about overpaying for Kronwall a couple of years ago.


And Mursak could become a top six forward. It's far to early to tell. Dats wasn't great in his first year and Mursak hasn't even played his first full year...
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