56 replies to this topic

[Heaten]

holland has a level of patience and foresight that most of us will never possess. hes a great gm. that being said, with such a great franchise (arguably the best sports franchise in history) your going to get fans who freak out at everything. there are some of us out here who believe it would be realistic that the wings win the cup every year. and i mean every year lol. so deal with it. i do believe i can run the red wings organization better than holland, i think i can coach better than babs too....i also think that zetterberg and i would be best friends if he would ever answer my emails. and i believe that ericssons contract is crappy, and that we shoulda won the cup every year since 87. hows that for logical



most every argument has some valid points.

Speaking of opinions, I think Ericsson could easily be traded right now for a 3rd rounder. Holland used a 9th rounder to get him. So in that sense, he's an asset regardless how he performed in the past. That's why I can't condemn kenny for the Ericsson signing, because no matter what (unless he get's career ending injury), Ericsson has value either in terms of either production... or trade.

I wasn't happy about the Lang trade or when J. Williams re-signed...though the Williams deal wasn't so much Holland's fault because injuries like he suffered are unforeseeable. I am excited to see how the new assistant coaches perform, from I understand is they'll help the younger guys excel. Maybe this is just what Big Rig needs to take that next step.

[RusDRW]

22 years of Army is the main reason for "grass was greener back then". Life looks the same when you're following orders all your life while it is naturally changing in a society. Depression as a result of realizing that you whole life was thrown away by your own childish decision... I feel bad for such people.

[Donaldjr2448]

22 years of Army is the main reason for "grass was greener back then". Life looks the same when you're following orders all your life while it is naturally changing in a society. Depression as a result of realizing that you whole life was thrown away by your own childish decision... I feel bad for such people.

That is exactly whay I thought when I read this article too. I served in the Navy as well, and I wanted nothing more than to come home to Michigan/Detroit why????? Because its home, not because we hate the Lions organization! All of his opinions valid or not are all open ended and that is not a good premise for an arguement!

[ogreslayer]

If in saying that Detroit fans are getting uglier, he meant this:



Then I might agree with him

[pucktividi]

I didn't know that Crymson was an online columnist.

Then Heaten might be Big E's spin doctor

Edited by pucktividi, 22 July 2011 - 12:44 PM.

[hillbillywingsfan]

Then Heaten might be Big E's spin doctor

nah they are both cool people. they just have strong feelings towards what they believe. there are a lot here like that. its what makes forums interesting.

[bogeygolfer]

all i hear is 'bla bla bla'

[Barrie]

Wow I can't believe that made the paper! I guess with the NFL and NBA labor problems going on, the Free Press and News can't fill their sports pages.

Absolute garbage!

[eva unit zero]

Worked out fine for both Datsyuk and Kronwall. Holland thinks Ericsson will play to the potential, you gotta give him the benefit of the doubt since he (and his supporting cast) have the best hockey brain trust in the world at their disposal. But yeah, lets believe a few random arm chair LGWs posters who probably don't even know the rules of a proper faceoff for their hockey analysis of a mid 20s defenseman. Lol!

Datsyuk was a top flight center in the NHL and received the salary of such. Kronwall was an elite prospect who was on the verge of breaking out and had just had his first full season with any real ice time, and played very well. Datsyuk's salary was fair for his play level at the time and he has since exceeded it. Kronwall was arguably overpaid, but over the length of his deal has more than lived up to the total value.
Datsyuk was two years older than Ericsson is now. Kronwall was a year younger. Ericsson is paid like a top four defenseman, and plays like a #6. He needs to play like a top four soon to prove he's worth his deal, and defensemen generally reach their peak around his age or a couple years later.

Ericsson showed some good flashes as well. See the SCF game #7, the only goal scorer. He was a monster in his first NHL appearance. Early on, in some games he looked like a future #4. IN his first NHL season, he looked like a fringe NHLer at times.

Not that it matters, but someone dug up some old posts about Datsyuk's contracts and some people were absolutely irate. I believe the LGWs trend at the time was trade Datsyuk + picks for Yashin... Now he's arguably the top 3 forward currently in the NHL...

I remember lots of people were pissed about Kronwall's contract and thought he wouldn't be worth his contract til the last year, which was considered a bad contract. ...And the cycle repeats itself with Ericsson.

Justin Abdelkader played his first two NHL games in the Stanley Cup Finals and scored a goal in each game. Does that mean he'll be deserving of a $3m-$4m cap hit on his next deal? That's basically what you're saying here.

As far as the actual point of the thread (this is NOT a Jonathan Ericsson thread, please return that argument to that thread, ok?) I think the article is somewhere in the middle. Detroit fans do go a bit overboard at times. One example, which I bring up because of the photo attached, is Joey Harrington. He was a very good quarterback and posted very good numbers, but the team simply didn't win. So he was crucified for it. Wayne Fontes was the best coach the Lions have had since the 1960s. Loved by players, successful with an organization that was terrible for decades before and has been less successful in terms of division titles and playoff appearances and wins in the nearly 20 years since he was fired than the handful of seasons he was here. Yet because of how vilified he was by fans, he often gets called "the worst coach ever" simply because he couldn't take a mediocre team to the Super Bowl. He couldn't use the few good players he had and win a championship. Chris Osgood played goal for the Wings and was one of the league's best goalies for most of his career. He was nominated for the Vezina in 1996. He won the Cup in 1998, playing stellar in net. He doesn't get proper credit because the team repeated, but had traded Mike Vernon, who started for the 1997 Cup. Vernon, however, played behind Vladimir Konstantinov, the best defenseman in the world at the time, as well as Nicklas Lidstrom, one of the two best defensemen of All-Time. Osgood did not have Konstantinov, a huge blow to the team. Brandon Inge has been one of baseball's elite defensive players, and a good power hitter. Yet because of his low batting average, and possibly because he switched positions (suggesting he wasn't good enough at any single position) many fans despised him and wanted him replaced by, well, anybody. And of course, the obligatory mention of Jiri Hudler, who gets unreasonable amounts of hate despite being one of the better forwards on the Wings. Starting last season on a slump didn't help, but his finish to the year seemed to be completely ignored by those who dislike him. The fact that he is not particularly liked by his coach due to his size and speed also lead to problems for him as far as fan hate.

That is the point of the article, and why it does have SOME merit.

[pucktividi]

nah they are both cool people. they just have strong feelings towards what they believe. there are a lot here like that. its what makes forums interesting.

Was just kidding,both are quality posters

[Heaten]

Datsyuk was a top flight center in the NHL and received the salary of such. Kronwall was an elite prospect who was on the verge of breaking out and had just had his first full season with any real ice time, and played very well. Datsyuk's salary was fair for his play level at the time and he has since exceeded it. Kronwall was arguably overpaid, but over the length of his deal has more than lived up to the total value.
Datsyuk was two years older than Ericsson is now. Kronwall was a year younger. Ericsson is paid like a top four defenseman, and plays like a #6. He needs to play like a top four soon to prove he's worth his deal, and defensemen generally reach their peak around his age or a couple years later.



Justin Abdelkader played his first two NHL games in the Stanley Cup Finals and scored a goal in each game. Does that mean he'll be deserving of a $3m-$4m cap hit on his next deal? That's basically what you're saying here.

As far as the actual point of the thread (this is NOT a Jonathan Ericsson thread, please return that argument to that thread, ok?) I think the article is somewhere in the middle. Detroit fans do go a bit overboard at times. One example, which I bring up because of the photo attached, is Joey Harrington. He was a very good quarterback and posted very good numbers, but the team simply didn't win. So he was crucified for it. Wayne Fontes was the best coach the Lions have had since the 1960s. Loved by players, successful with an organization that was terrible for decades before and has been less successful in terms of division titles and playoff appearances and wins in the nearly 20 years since he was fired than the handful of seasons he was here. Yet because of how vilified he was by fans, he often gets called "the worst coach ever" simply because he couldn't take a mediocre team to the Super Bowl. He couldn't use the few good players he had and win a championship. Chris Osgood played goal for the Wings and was one of the league's best goalies for most of his career. He was nominated for the Vezina in 1996. He won the Cup in 1998, playing stellar in net. He doesn't get proper credit because the team repeated, but had traded Mike Vernon, who started for the 1997 Cup. Vernon, however, played behind Vladimir Konstantinov, the best defenseman in the world at the time, as well as Nicklas Lidstrom, one of the two best defensemen of All-Time. Osgood did not have Konstantinov, a huge blow to the team. Brandon Inge has been one of baseball's elite defensive players, and a good power hitter. Yet because of his low batting average, and possibly because he switched positions (suggesting he wasn't good enough at any single position) many fans despised him and wanted him replaced by, well, anybody. And of course, the obligatory mention of Jiri Hudler, who gets unreasonable amounts of hate despite being one of the better forwards on the Wings. Starting last season on a slump didn't help, but his finish to the year seemed to be completely ignored by those who dislike him. The fact that he is not particularly liked by his coach due to his size and speed also lead to problems for him as far as fan hate.

That is the point of the article, and why it does have SOME merit.

As did you with this long-winded post you wrote that is pretty much completely wrong and contradicts itself on so many levels. But I do agree, as your post just proved, Detroit fans do go overboard at times. Cheers!

Edited by Heaten, 22 July 2011 - 03:07 PM.

[dragonballgtz]

I would be pissed off to if I followed the Lions

[Shoreline]

I actually have to agree with the writer of that, for the most part. And I've seen develop what he suggests:

I was horrified to find that I had been telling a lie. Our grandfathers must be turning over in their graves regarding the constant whining of Detroit fans. I don't even know how some of you can call yourself fans -- or whether you even enjoy the games. For those of us who do still enjoy it, our experience is tarnished by your sense of entitlement. If some of you only knew how many municipalities are begging just to have a pro team, perhaps you would show some respect.

It seems that many of us believe we can coach, manage or run the day-to-day operations of our sports teams better than anyone else. Some of us even think they are better players and athletes, even though they were second-string in high school. I find it difficult to understand why many of you even attend the games. It seems that you believe you have license to complain about every aspect of every play and the result of every game. If that's the case, you at least should realize that if you were worth your weight in snot, you would be out there playing or coaching yourself.

The concept of being a fan is fairly simple. It starts with loving the sport. If you do, the experience should be great, win or lose. A true fan supports their team, its players and its coaches through thick and thin. Last time I checked, fans don't call plays, select players, fill out lineups nor participate. Your job is to cheer or boo. I guess some of us want to use sports to deflect personal failures. I listen to local sports radio from time to time, and it is amazing how much hatred is out there among people who call themselves fans.

It's not like there isn't room for "other" type of fans. It's that those of us who've been around a while have seen the type of "entitled" fans that the writer takes issue with far too much take a piece of enjoyment out of something we're supposed to be supporting as fans by the constant yammering and bitching about every little f-ing detail of the team. It's one thing to talk, to express disappointment in a loss, be a critical of a signing or a lack of signing, to be critical of a team after years of disappointments, but the sense of spoiled entitlement reeks heavily, and indeed like the writer of that I do wonder if these people actually do even enjoy watching hockey and the Red Wings. They shouldn't be surprised when more tempered fans get irritated at those entitled fans (mindfly was one of the biggest here) who flip the f*** out after any single event and do little else other than whine and spew negativity about something they (and others they're around) are supposed to enjoy.

It is certainly going to be interesting to see how these fans fare when the team isn't nearly as successful. I saw the same s*** develop with 49ers fans from the 90s and on. It's like watching the same thing happen in a different league and decade.

Edited by Shoreline, 22 July 2011 - 06:43 PM.

[Hockeytown_Ryan]

Seems like the the story was written about Detroit Sports as a whole! most of you taking it that he did not like just the Wings?

I don't understand how one guy gets his thoughts published and some take major offense like he was talking to you... oh wait! maybe he was!

I am not saying he is totally right, But he has a couple of valid thoughts in there.

[mmamolo]

It's just ridiculous that this article condemns fans for bitching, complaining and getting on their high horse when talking about their favourite teams when that is 100% what the content of this article is all about just with a different point of attack. The writer of the articles gets all high and mighty and complains about how (Detroit) sports fans *****, whine and complain. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

I have to agree with the author, he is right that DRWs are the most unrealistic and unappreciative fans in the game.

Clearly you don't know any Leaf fans. It's just crazy to lump an entire fan base into one collective group and then generalize them. So many people around here hate Pens and Hawks fans...some do it simply because of the rivalry and some do it because of a select few fans of those teams who are obnoxious. It's easier to chastize the entire group and hide behind those false pretenses than it is to call out an individual. Every single fan base has annoying, obnoxious fans. The writer of the article just proved he's an arrogant, ignorant, obnoxious fan of 'Detroit Fans' who wants to criticize.

Ericsson showed some good flashes as well. See the SCF game #7, the only goal scorer. He was a monster in his first NHL appearance. Early on, in some games he looked like a future #4. IN his first NHL season, he looked like a fringe NHLer at times.

Not that it matters, but someone dug up some old posts about Datsyuk's contracts and some people were absolutely irate. I believe the LGWs trend at the time was trade Datsyuk + picks for Yashin... Now he's arguably the top 3 forward currently in the NHL...

I remember lots of people were pissed about Kronwall's contract and thought he wouldn't be worth his contract til the last year, which was considered a bad contract. ...And the cycle repeats itself with Ericsson.

I don't always agree with Heaten but on this he is right (when comparing the Kronwall/Datsyukl contracts). Holland has always signed these types of deals that potentially overpay in the early years but then translate into bargains in the latter. Whether you agree that Ericsson will become a value contract in the later years or not is irrelevent. Ken Holland believes it and that's why Ericsson got the contract that he did.

Maybe a better example would be Filppula. In the summer leadign up to the 2008-09 season he signed a 5 year $15M deal (when the cap was $56.7 M (5.29% of the cap that season). Fil was coming off of a 36 point campaign (in 78g) and a solid playoff contribution. People, still to this day complain about the contract Fil has just as much as they did when he signed it.

You can argue that Ericsson hasn't done as much as Fil had (at that point) in order to obtain his $3.25M cap hit (5.02% of the cap that season) but Holland believes that Fil is a bargain today and that Ericsson will be a bargain soon too.

[Nightfall]

The concept of being a fan is fairly simple. It starts with loving the sport. If you do, the experience should be great, win or lose. A true fan supports their team, its players and its coaches through thick and thin.

If this is the case, then 90% of LGW need to turn in their "fan" cards. I haven't seen very many people on this forum (or other wings fans) fully support their team, players, and coaches even when they win a championship. I would hate to see it when the Wings fall on hard times.

I really don't subscribe to what the article is saying though. I used to be a big proponent of what a fan should be on this forum. Now I just worry about myself. There will always be people who complain or get upset at the way a team is playing. Even in championship years, you can't make everyone happy.

Edited by Nightfall, 25 July 2011 - 01:47 PM.

[RedFX]