The Real Osgood Question

[eva unit zero 271]

not a chance. lidstrom will be up there for sure. osgood's numbers are good but he is in no way in the same class of numbers hanging above the ice (and even one that's not hanging and in all intents and purposes should be *cough* larry aurie *cough*).

it's absurd that there are even some thinking draper's belongs up there. we can't retire all fan favorites otherwise we'll end up like montreal - nothing but numbers 50-90.

Osgood not in the same class as Larry Aurie?

Osgood was better at his position than Aurie was at his.

[sputman 1,268]

Osgood not in the same class as Larry Aurie?

Osgood was better at his position than Aurie was at his.

you must have seen aurie in lots of games to make that decision. i apologize.

[Guest stinky fish taco]

i've had a few drinks...did the OP actually state that you could make a case for darren mccarty's jersey being retired?

just making sure i'm reading that right.

[sputman 1,268]

i've had a few drinks...did the OP actually state that you could make a case for darren mccarty's jersey being retired?

just making sure i'm reading that right.

if that's true than he must have had a few drinks, too.

[paulwoodsfan 52]

Much as I loved him, I don't believe Osgood will (or should) make the Hall of Fame or get a banner.

Obviously Lidstrom gets both.

Datsyuk and Zetterberg, if they remain Red Wings for the rest of their careers (Z almost certainly will, Datsyuk has another contract to negotiate in three years) are very likely to get banners and could end up in the Hall as well (Datsyuk more likely for the latter at this point).

I think the Wings will do a "Grind Line" banner honouring Draper, Maltby and McCarty together at some point.

[eva unit zero 271]

Much as I loved him, I don't believe Osgood will (or should) make the Hall of Fame or get a banner.

Obviously Lidstrom gets both.

Datsyuk and Zetterberg, if they remain Red Wings for the rest of their careers (Z almost certainly will, Datsyuk has another contract to negotiate in three years) are very likely to get banners and could end up in the Hall as well (Datsyuk more likely for the latter at this point).

I think the Wings will do a "Grind Line" banner honouring Draper, Maltby and McCarty together at some point.

What is your reasoning behind Osgood not making the Hall? Because Osgood's achievements and performance are in the same area as these guys, who are in the Hall:

Billy Smith, Gerry Cheevers, Lorne "Gump" Worsley, Grant Fuhr, Johnny Bower.

Chris Osgood gets into the Hall. He's not Roy, he's not Hasek. But he is Hall material.

EDIT: And what makes you think they would put up a "Grind Line" banner? Why wouldn't it include Kocur? How about a "Bruise Brothers" banner?

Edited July 30, 2011 by eva unit zero

[thomaz5 3]

Nope

Edited July 30, 2011 by thomaz5

[paulwoodsfan 52]

What is your reasoning behind Osgood not making the Hall? Because Osgood's achievements and performance are in the same area as these guys, who are in the Hall:

Billy Smith, Gerry Cheevers, Lorne "Gump" Worsley, Grant Fuhr, Johnny Bower.

Chris Osgood gets into the Hall. He's not Roy, he's not Hasek. But he is Hall material.

EDIT: And what makes you think they would put up a "Grind Line" banner? Why wouldn't it include Kocur? How about a "Bruise Brothers" banner?

1. I don't think Osgood has Hall of Fame credentials. He is certainly not at the level of Smith, Fuhr or Bower (four Cups each as starters, IIRC, and considered among the league's top goalies for much of their careers). Worsley and Cheevers may or may not be legitimate HoFers but there are are a lot of guys in from that era who are not, IMO (e.g. Bob Pulford, Clark Gillies). Basing someone's credentials on how he compares to others in an already overstocked Hall of Fame is a way to further degrade the Hall's status. IMO Osgood was a good goalie for a long time an an outstanding team, but was never an elite player. And I want the Hall reserved for elite players.

2. I think the Grind Line was a key component of four Cups and was in some ways symbolic of the team's evolution into the top organization in hockey. The three main members of the line were character/heart-and-soul guys whose importance to the team far outweighed their statistical contributions. Putting them up there as a unit on a single banner would go over very well with Wings fans without overstating their overall importance. Kocur was on the line only briefly in 1997 so I don't see him being included. As for the Bruise Brothers, there are lots of people with fond memories of that pair (I'm one of them) but the Wings never won anything with the two of them in the lineup together, and Probert's well-documented personal issues which led to his eventual departure from Detroit will prevent him from being so honoured.

[djohns74 3]

Sorry Osgood fans (and I know that, inexplicably, there are many of you out there), but there is zero chance that the Wings retire his number. I'm fairly confident he'll make it into the Hall based on his numbers alone, since that traditionally gets guys in, but no one can convince me that he's on the exceedingly short list (currently 6 guys) of former Red Wings legendary enough to hang from the rafters. It's been mentioned already in this thread, but Lidstrom is without question just as much of a shoe-in as Stevie was, but that is it. Shanahan? Fedorov? Give me a break. Great players with important places in Red Wings history to be sure, but not to the point that they can be mentioned in the same breath as Howe, Lindsay, Sawchuk, Yzerman and Lidstrom. No chance.

Maybe there are one or two others currently on the team that could merit such an honor one day, but in all cases, it will be at least another five years before that question can legitimately be asked, never mind answered.

[stormboy 47]

I haven't been around the game or the team long enough to take a strong stance either way, but I read someone else say that if there's a debate, then the answer should be "No". To me, Yzerman: no debate. Lidstrom: no debate. With Datsyuk and Z, only time will tell (though IM(very)HO there will be at least a debate, which perhaps answers the question for both of them).

There's obviously a lot of back-and-forth when it comes to Ozzie, with some feeling that there shouldn't be a back-and-forth because his number SHOULD be retired while others think there shouldn't be a back-and-forth because it SHOULDN'T. With Lidstrom, there will be no debate in any form. There wasn't with Yzerman.

To me, that's the difference.

[jroach17 96]

This topic is a joke, Osgood in the HOF is a joke, & putting his number in the rafters is a cruel joke. Take off the Red & White wheel rimmed glasses.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

This topic is a joke, Osgood in the HOF is a joke, & putting his number in the rafters is a cruel joke. Take off the Red & White wheel rimmed glasses.

Who pooped in your cereal this morning? None of the above might happen, but that doesn't mean people can't talk about it.

Edited August 3, 2011 by SouthernWingsFan

[eva unit zero 271]

1. I don't think Osgood has Hall of Fame credentials. He is certainly not at the level of Smith, Fuhr or Bower (four Cups each as starters, IIRC, and considered among the league's top goalies for much of their careers). Worsley and Cheevers may or may not be legitimate HoFers but there are are a lot of guys in from that era who are not, IMO (e.g. Bob Pulford, Clark Gillies). Basing someone's credentials on how he compares to others in an already overstocked Hall of Fame is a way to further degrade the Hall's status. IMO Osgood was a good goalie for a long time an an outstanding team, but was never an elite player. And I want the Hall reserved for elite players.

2. I think the Grind Line was a key component of four Cups and was in some ways symbolic of the team's evolution into the top organization in hockey. The three main members of the line were character/heart-and-soul guys whose importance to the team far outweighed their statistical contributions. Putting them up there as a unit on a single banner would go over very well with Wings fans without overstating their overall importance. Kocur was on the line only briefly in 1997 so I don't see him being included. As for the Bruise Brothers, there are lots of people with fond memories of that pair (I'm one of them) but the Wings never won anything with the two of them in the lineup together, and Probert's well-documented personal issues which led to his eventual departure from Detroit will prevent him from being so honoured.

It's funny that you pick Bower and Fuhr. Bower was named the best goalie in the league once early in his career, which Chris Osgood nearly was in 1996. Otherwise, Bower was an average goalie in a six-team league. Sawchuk, Hall, and Plante all played most or all of their team's games. Bower never did. The only time he won the Vezina; what is now the Jennings, was as Sawchuk's backup.

Fuhr was always considered very good, because he was always winning. But was he even the best goalie in Edmonton? Andy Moog went to the All-Star game as an Oiler and after leaving Edmonton. Bill Ranford won a Cup with the Oilers. People argue against Osgood for having played on a great team, when it's Fuhr who truly should be looked at with those eyes.

Billy Smith was a good goaltender. On a dynasty-level team. If you replace the players in Edmonton with average NHL players, how many more championships does that team win? And do they need Smith or can they do it if they get a new goalie?

The Grind Line was not a key component of four Cups. It was a key component of two Cups. A better banner would be a Russian Five banner. Fewer Cups, but more importance. And while we're at it, why not raise a banner for the Lebda/Lilja pairing that led to our current trend of not playing defense?

[paulwoodsfan 52]

It's funny that you pick Bower and Fuhr. Bower was named the best goalie in the league once early in his career, which Chris Osgood nearly was in 1996. Otherwise, Bower was an average goalie in a six-team league. Sawchuk, Hall, and Plante all played most or all of their team's games. Bower never did. The only time he won the Vezina; what is now the Jennings, was as Sawchuk's backup.

Fuhr was always considered very good, because he was always winning. But was he even the best goalie in Edmonton? Andy Moog went to the All-Star game as an Oiler and after leaving Edmonton. Bill Ranford won a Cup with the Oilers. People argue against Osgood for having played on a great team, when it's Fuhr who truly should be looked at with those eyes.

Billy Smith was a good goaltender. On a dynasty-level team. If you replace the players in Edmonton with average NHL players, how many more championships does that team win? And do they need Smith or can they do it if they get a new goalie?

Sorry, Bower was not an "average goalie." Were you even alive when he was playing?

To suggest that Fuhr was less of a goalie than Moog or Ranford is utterly ridiculous. Aside from making every save he absolutely needed to make behind a team that seldom deigned to play defence, Fuhr was also good enough to be chosen as the starting (and winning) goalie for Canada in the 1987 Canada Cup. And won the Vezina Trophy that season. And finished second in balloting for the Hart Trophy. Osgood ever do any of that?

As for Smith, although for some reason you mention Edmonton, I assume the point you are trying to make is that the reason he won Cups is because he played for a dynasty. Hmmm, could the same be said about Osgood? Oh wait, the Red Wings actually did change their goalie and win the Cup. Happened three times, actually.

The Grind Line was not a key component of four Cups. It was a key component of two Cups. A better banner would be a Russian Five banner. Fewer Cups, but more importance. And while we're at it, why not raise a banner for the Lebda/Lilja pairing that led to our current trend of not playing defense?

To suggest the Grind Line was not a key component in 2002 is, to quote myself, utterly ridiculous, but I grant it was not a hugely significant component in 2008. As for a Russian Five banner, that's actually a good idea -- I'd do both (R5 and GL) if I were Mike Ilitch.

[eva unit zero 271]

Sorry, Bower was not an "average goalie." Were you even alive when he was playing?

He was no better for most of his career than Osgood was for his. Bower simply faced less competition. He was an average goalie in a time full of hall-of-fame goaltenders.

To suggest that Fuhr was less of a goalie than Moog or Ranford is utterly ridiculous. Aside from making every save he absolutely needed to make behind a team that seldom deigned to play defence, Fuhr was also good enough to be chosen as the starting (and winning) goalie for Canada in the 1987 Canada Cup. And won the Vezina Trophy that season. And finished second in balloting for the Hart Trophy. Osgood ever do any of that?

Edmonton wasn't designed to play defense. But the Oil had defensively capable players. And more importantly, they had the puck. Regardless of how bad your players are in the defensive end, it doesn't matter if they have the puck.

As for Smith, although for some reason you mention Edmonton, I assume the point you are trying to make is that the reason he won Cups is because he played for a dynasty. Hmmm, could the same be said about Osgood? Oh wait, the Red Wings actually did change their goalie and win the Cup. Happened three times, actually.

I brought up Edmonton because the Oilers ended the Islanders dynasty. Dur.

To suggest the Grind Line was not a key component in 2002 is, to quote myself, utterly ridiculous, but I grant it was not a hugely significant component in 2008. As for a Russian Five banner, that's actually a good idea -- I'd do both (R5 and GL) if I were Mike Ilitch.

Neither should be raised. It's stupid.

[Travis 576]

Banners aren't the only way in which a team can honor its former players.

[GMRwings1983 8,793]

Han anyone honestly ever explained why Norm Ullman and Red Kelly don't have their numbers in the rafters?

Is it because they didn't play their entire careers in Detroit?

As I stated earlier in this thread, if those guys didn't get their jerseys up there, Ozzie shouldn't as well. He didn't play his whole career in Detroit either, and he's not nearly as great as either of those players.

FYI, I think both Kelly and Ullman should have their jerseys retired. They were two of the best players of their era, and it's a joke that the Wings haven't honored that.

Edited August 3, 2011 by GMRwings1983

[number9 3,297]

Han anyone honestly ever explained why Norm Ullman and Red Kelly don't have their numbers in the rafters?

Is it because they didn't play their entire careers in Detroit?

As I stated earlier in this thread, if those guys didn't get their jerseys up there, Ozzie shouldn't either. He didn't play his whole career in Detroit either, and he's not nearly as great as either of those players.

FYI, I think both Kelly and Ullman should have their jerseys retired. They were two of the best players of their era, and it's a joke that the Wings haven't honored that.

didnt think of those 2.... i think that should seal the argument thou. if a guy like kelly isnt up there then theres no way ozzie should be up there

Edited August 3, 2011 by number9

[paulwoodsfan 52]

He was no better for most of his career than Osgood was for his. Bower simply faced less competition. He was an average goalie in a time full of hall-of-fame goaltenders.

As I asked, where you alive when Bower played?

I brought up Edmonton because the Oilers ended the Islanders dynasty. Dur. [/font]

As I asked, could the same thing you are saying about Smith be said about Osgood?

Edited August 3, 2011 by paulwoodsfan

[eva unit zero 271]

As I asked, where you alive when Bower played?

As I asked, could the same thing you are saying about Smith be said about Osgood?

Asking how good his team in front of him is? Fine, why don't we take this question full-on.

Why the f*** is Ken Dryden in the Hall of Fame?

Not a lot of goalies make HOF careers without great teams for the majority. I can think of two in the past 30 years I would vote for. Dominik Hasek and Curtis Joseph. Joseph, of course, can be argued against. Hasek didn't win a Cup without a stacked team, and he failed in the 2008 playoffs and had to be bailed out by a certain Chris Osgood.

If Osgood had retired at the end of the 2008 playoff run, I think his chances would be lower but Wings fans would be more in favor. See: Going out on a high note.

[egroen 384]

Han anyone honestly ever explained why Norm Ullman and Red Kelly don't have their numbers in the rafters?

Is it because they didn't play their entire careers in Detroit?

As I stated earlier in this thread, if those guys didn't get their jerseys up there, Ozzie shouldn't as well. He didn't play his whole career in Detroit either, and he's not nearly as great as either of those players.

FYI, I think both Kelly and Ullman should have their jerseys retired. They were two of the best players of their era, and it's a joke that the Wings haven't honored that.

Ullman is definitely deserving, IMO... but I am sure winning no Cups with Detroit is the main reason he is not up there.

The fact Kelly has his number hanging in the rafters in Toronto, and not Detroit (where he was a much better player) drives me bonkers. Huge part of 4 Cups, easily the 2nd best defenseman in Detroit's history and a Top 20 player all-time.

I've spoken to Ted Lindsay about it and Ansar Khan, who said he would bring it up to Devellano.

[GMRwings1983 8,793]

Ullman is definitely deserving, IMO... but I am sure winning no Cups with Detroit is the main reason he is not up there.

The fact Kelly has his number hanging in the rafters in Toronto, and not Detroit (where he was a much better player) drives me bonkers. Huge part of 4 Cups, easily the 2nd best defenseman in Detroit's history and a Top 20 player all-time.

I've spoken to Ted Lindsay about it and Ansar Khan, who said he would bring it up to Devellano.

Winning Cups is important, but Ullman isn't to blame for arriving to the Wings after their Cup runs in the early 50's, and during the Canadiens 5 Cups in a row stretch. By the time the 60's rolled around, things weren't the same. I guess it's a different precedent from other teams, if they're only retiring Cup winners in Detroit.

The Kelly one is even more surprising to me because of the things you've mentioned.

My best guess for why both players aren't up there would be that they didn't play their entire careers in Detroit. Then again, neither did Howe or Sawchuk, but obviously they had to retire those numbers.

[paulwoodsfan 52]

Asking how good his team in front of him is? Fine, why don't we take this question full-on.

Why the f*** is Ken Dryden in the Hall of Fame?

Not a lot of goalies make HOF careers without great teams for the majority. I can think of two in the past 30 years I would vote for. Dominik Hasek and Curtis Joseph. Joseph, of course, can be argued against. Hasek didn't win a Cup without a stacked team, and he failed in the 2008 playoffs and had to be bailed out by a certain Chris Osgood.

If Osgood had retired at the end of the 2008 playoff run, I think his chances would be lower but Wings fans would be more in favor. See: Going out on a high note.

So the answer to Bower question was No? Care to answer the same question re Dryden? Smith? Fuhr?

[Konnan511 1,736]

No, his number won't be retired. He was never "the man" for the Red Wings. If Fedorov doesn't get his number retired, no way in hell Ozzie does, and that's no offense to Ozzie, who I think is a first ballet HHOF.

[eva unit zero 271]

So the answer to Bower question was No? Care to answer the same question re Dryden? Smith? Fuhr?

Bower and Dryden no. Smith and Fuhr yes.

However, would you rank Bower ahead of Plante, Hall, or Sawchuk during his career? The PHWA didn't. Bower rarely received serious consideration for postseason All-Star teams. And before you say "Chris Osgood was average in that respect also." Hmm. Osgood had three guys ahead of him who are in the "Best goalie ever" conversation. So did Bower. But Osgood played in a 24-30 team league to Bower's 6 team league. Meaning Osgood was also competing with another 20-26 goalies for the remaining votes. Using the same three-place voting system.

Osgood was one of the top four or five goalies of his era. In most past eras (with far fewer teams and players), this is about how many goalies are inducted. Especially someone as successful as Osgood has been.