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Osgood should(n't) be included in the HoF...


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#21 drumnj

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Posted 23 July 2011 - 05:58 PM






nuff said

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#22 IllinoisRedWingsFan

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Posted 23 July 2011 - 06:39 PM

Will he get in? Yes I think he has the numbers and remember he was the last goalie for the Islanders when they were last in the playoffs
Will he get in on the first ballot? No.....

#23 dirtydangles

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Posted 23 July 2011 - 07:03 PM

barnaby was tweeting all this s*** against ozzie and making himself look like an ass. ozzie will get in. no doubt. his numbers speak for themselves.

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#24 drumlife19

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Posted 23 July 2011 - 08:14 PM

Yikes. Apparently this guy always writes biased articles against the Red Wings.

The case against Chris Osgood's Hall of Fame candidacy


Ryan Lambert is a garbage 'sports blogger' if you can even call him that.

Chris over at NOHS basically summed it up, Haters Gonna Hate
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#25 Barrie

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Posted 23 July 2011 - 10:48 PM

I'd like to know if some of these writers who don't think Ozzie is a Hall of Fame goalie, thinks if CuJo should be in there or not. My money says they probably say CuJo is a Hall of Fame goalie and they'll debate Ozzie, just because CuJo played in Toronto, despite not getting past the Conference Finals in two tries.

To me, Ozzie should be in there no question. CuJo should be the one there's a public debate about.
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#26 Packer487

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Posted 24 July 2011 - 01:53 AM

The numbers say absolutely, but I vote no. Full disclosure: Never liked the guy in his first stint with the Wings. He won me over to a point with his play in the 08 playoffs--he was fantastic. I respect the way that he stuck with it and ultimately had a triumphant return in Detroit. It's pretty impressive to have the two best seasons of your career more than a decade apart. Quite honestly, had Detroit won Game 7 against the Pens in 09, there's no argument against putting him in. Maybe that's unfair to hang so much on one game, but three Cups as a starter and top 10 in wins has to get you in, regardless of how good the team you played on was. I'd put him in if for no other reason than keeping Cindy's name off the Cup.

But there are a couple of reasons I vote no, and they don't have anything to do with the lame "It was just the team" argument.

1) I just can't see putting a guy in the HHOF who had 2 or 3 years tops where he could be considered a top-5 goalie in the league. 95-96 and 07-08. It's pretty remarkable that he did it more than a decade apart, but that's really it. I'm sure people could make a case for another season or two, and that's fine, but I feel the HHOF should be for the elite. He got to that level for a couple of seasons, but certainly didn't sustain it for any amount of time.

2) Moreso, though, I just keep coming back to this. If you consider him a HHOFer, then the story goes like this: The Red Wings had a 28 year old future Hall of Famer. When a 36(ish)-year-old future Hall of Famer in Dominik Hasek came on the market the Wings couldn't jump on him fast enough. So then they had a 28-year-old future HOFer that was available. Surely teams would fall over themselves lining up and Detroit would get a nice return? Didn't happen. We got nothing in return.

What happened after that? (And I'm trying to be as balanced as possible with these evaluations)

01-02: Good season for the Islanders
02-03: Save % below .900. Bad.
03-04: Really good season for the Blues.
05-06: Save % below .900 for the Wings. Bad.
06-07: Meh. Pretty good numbers, but didn't play much.
07-08: Fantastic season. I'd probably argue that it was the best year of his career.
08-09: Career worst in GAA. Career low in Save %. Great run in the playoffs.
09-10: Below .500, a 3+ GAA, sub 89 save percentage. Didn't play a ton, but ugh.
10-11: Barely played, nothing special.

So you've got three really good seasons over the last decade of his career, a couple with a lack of games played, and 2-3 that were somewhere between subpar and awful. I don't think anyone would've argued back in 01 that he was on his way to the HHOF and when you look at it, he really didn't help the resume all that much once he left. The Cup was huge, but he didn't have himself a great decade there...

He was a good goalie, but I think the HHOF should be for the best of the best. There's what? 30 players in there who primarily played goalie? The win total puts him there, but I just don't think you can make a case for him as one of the 30 best netminders to ever play. I'd say about 1990 is when I can really start to remember watching hockey, which means right now there are 3 goalies that I've seen play in the HHOF. Roy, Fuhr, Belfour. We know Hasek and Brodeur are locks. I can't put Osgood up there with those guys. Those were the guys you feared going up against. I don't think Osgood ever got to that point, even though he had some great years and finished off a couple of them with Cup wins. But the one Vezina nomination, and the 3 All-Star games (two that he played in) are kind of glaring. Also, maybe it doesn't mean much, but the lack of any international play doesn't help. Really good at times, but not elite.

Is it possible for someone to simultaneously be one of the most overrated and underrated/underappreciated players in history? I do think that there are groups of Wings fans that drastically overrate him. At the same time, I think there's a much larger group of people who simply write off his successes to the team in front of him, which is a mistake, especially after seeing what he did in 08.

It just seems like there's a pretty high standard for goalies. I don't consider him a HHOFer, but that doesn't diminish what he accomplished in his career one bit.

Wow, that post got really long in a hurry. It's been awhile!

#27 Majsheppard

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Posted 25 July 2011 - 04:02 AM

He was a good goalie, but I think the HHOF should be for the best of the best. Is it possible for someone to simultaneously be one of the most overrated and underrated/underappreciated players in history? I do think that there are groups of Wings fans that drastically overrate him. At the same time, I think there's a much larger group of people who simply write off his successes to the team in front of him, which is a mistake, especially after seeing what he did in 08.

His numbers do put him as the best of the best.

His play does too, he was clutch which is worth a hell of a lot more. I watched the games before Osgood, during his hay day, and after and still don't think there is a glove hand as good as his. There definitely is not a stronger mental Constitution among goaltenders. He isn't the number one goaltender of all time, but he without a doubt is in the top twenty, and as you said there are thirty or so tenders in the hall so I don't see why you would leave him out just because he was on a good team.

I seem to remember there being a HoF defenseman on the Devils... should we leave Marty out? Oh s***, Yzerman played with tons of hall of famers, better leave him out as well. If these statements seem absurd, it is because they are. Osgood shouldn't get that treatment.
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Tootoo does NOT belong on this team. He is classless and I would rather see the Wings be bad than classless. I feel the same way about Bertuzzi as well, but he at least CAN make the team better. With Tootoo the team becomes worse and in danger of being classless. Would you have liked Claude on the team? Or Roy? No. So why would you be okay with that POS.

This thread has been closed due to emotions being higher than people's ability to read, interpret, and properly respond to simple posts.

#28 revnic

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Posted 25 July 2011 - 02:33 PM

Here are some interesting stats I found on a different site. Just some points to possibly consider:



Interesting stats regarding Chris Osgood, when arguing with pro-Hall people:

- Without the shootout, he would have 391 wins, not 401

- The Red Wings had a .629 win percentage with him in net, but .640 when he wasn’t in the net

- During Osgood’s career, the average save percentage of all goalies in the NHL was 0.9059. Osgood’s was 0.9051. Call it even. But that means half the goalies were better, half worse.

- On Osgood’s various teams, his career GAA was 2.49. The other goalies on those teams during that time boasted 2.47.

- While he was the DET goalie, he won three cups in 14 seasons (one as a backup). But during the three years that he was not in Detroit, they still won one. So winning Cups 21% of the time with him there (less if you consider he was backup once)…versus winning the Cup 33% of the time with him not there.

- He’s eighth in career playoff wins. He’s also 11th in career playoff losses.

- He’s clutch? His regular season win percentage is .603. His playoff win percentage is .574. He is 2-4 in Game 7 games. Yes, pretty clutch

- In 13 games where his team could be eliminated, he was 5-8 with a .893 SP.

- He lost the starting gig to Manny Legace and Garth Snow. I don’t think a Hall-of-Famer ever lost his starting job to anybody ever while in his prime.

#29 MGreenberg

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Posted 25 July 2011 - 04:46 PM

I voted no as much as I have loved watching Ozzie play over the years. If he does end up getting in, like someone else said it will probably be a slow year in terms of quality trying to get into the HHOF.

#30 eva unit zero

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Posted 25 July 2011 - 10:27 PM

To me it boils down to being very good for a very long time, but never elite. Is that Hall Worthy?

My answer is, I honestly don't know. I'd be a little disappointed if he never got in, but I think he's definitely on the bubble so it wouldn't surprise me.

Didn't Grant Fuhr play with some pretty good teams? He was just inducted with just 403 wins, and 4 Cups. But he did win a Vezina.

Osgood deserved the Vezina in 1996, but Jim Carey's high shutout number stole it. In 2008, Osgood had a very good chance at winning the Vezina if he had played 60-65 games instead of the 43 he did play. He still received Vezina consideration despite his tandem situation with Hasek, while Hasek did not receive any consideration. Osgood also was always looked at with the "Yeah, but he plays for Detroit." attitude, preventing him from getting more votes than he did.

When it comes to the Hall of Fame I don't go by stats alone. They are an important criteria. However when I think of Osgood's career, to me it is not Hall worthy. When I think of the Hockey Hall of Fame, I think of players such as Gretzky, Messier, Lemieux, Roy, Orr...to name a few. No question with those guys. Their careers speak for themselves. Osgood played on some great teams and benefitted from it. But he still won those games and won those Cups. However I don't think you can look at Cups by itself. Draper won 4 Cups. Does this mean he is a better player than Marcel Dionne who won none? Of course not. 400 wins is 400 wins. But to me, Osgood was a good goaile but not great. To me you have to be great to be in the Hall of Fame. Andreychuk and Gartner to me were not great but they are in because of their numbers. Myself, I don't think either should be in. Likewise I don't think Osgood should be in.


You are trying to apply the criteria for retiring numbers in Detroit to HHOF inductees. Not the same. You don't have to be one of the most all-time, epic players ever to be a HOFer. Here's a good question. It's generally agreed on these boards that Adam Oates deserves to be in the Hall. Was Osgood better compared to his contemporaries than Oates? Gretzky, Lemieux, Yzerman, Messier, Sakic, Fedorov, Forsberg, Francis, Gilmour, LaFontaine are guys Oates had to go against who were arguably better at the same position and are or will likely be in the Hall. Osgood's list includes Roy, Hasek, Brodeur, Belfour, Joseph.

That puts Osgood equal with or ahead of Oates when compared to others of the era and position. Osgood also wins on accomplishments.

Andreychuk I don't think belongs. Gartner has a career GPG of about .5, as does Dino Ciccarelli. That's an average of about 40 goals per season for their careers. Andreychuk's career GPG average was about .39, for about 30 goals per season. He played forever and that's how he ended up with his numbers. Outside of a couple seasons in the early 90s, Andreychuk was a mediocre scorer.

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#31 eva unit zero

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Posted 25 July 2011 - 11:05 PM

The Red Wings had a .629 win percentage with him in net, but .640 when he wasn't in the net
On Osgood's various teams, his career GAA was 2.49. The other goalies on those teams during that time boasted 2.47.


Teams will generally give their backup goaltenders starts against weaker teams. So with a good team like Detroit, unless the backup loses the game due to poor performance, that will be a win. That also goes to the point of GAA; weaker teams tend to score fewer goals.

- While he was the DET goalie, he won three cups in 14 seasons (one as a backup). But during the three years that he was not in Detroit, they still won one. So winning Cups 21% of the time with him there (less if you consider he was backup once)…versus winning the Cup 33% of the time with him not there.

- He's eighth in career playoff wins. He's also 11th in career playoff losses.

- He's clutch? His regular season win percentage is .603. His playoff win percentage is .574. He is 2-4 in Game 7 games. Yes, pretty clutch


Osgood was the starter for two Cups, three finals trips and a conference finals trip in eight seasons where he was the primary goaltender during the postseason, one of those postseasons ending in large part due to Osgood being injured in the second round. That's damn good for any goaltender on any team. Better postseason winning percentage than a great number of Hall of Famers, including Terry Sawchuk. Comparable record to Patrick Roy. Grant Fuhr has a better record, from playing on Edmonton all those years. Ken Dryden from those incredible Montreal teams. As for his game 7s, one was as a rookie bailing out a floundering Bob Essensa; Osgood went 3-2 in the series and nearly won it for the Wings after the team folded up early on. Another was a Cup finals loss where the entire Wings team flopped after the first period. But as you're so concerned with numbers, why not look at the fact that his career sv% increases from .905 to .916 and his GAA drops from 2.49 to 2.09? Clutch.

- He lost the starting gig to Manny Legace and Garth Snow. I don't think a Hall-of-Famer ever lost his starting job to anybody ever while in his prime.


Incorrect. He lost starting gigs to Dominik Hasek and Jimmy Howard. Osgood was waived in favor of Legace because Legace was nearly $3m cheaper, and Hasek was the new starter. Osgood was traded by the Isles because DiPietro had come back from IR and the team decided that as Snow was playing well, the much more expensive Osgood could be dealt. As for Hall of Famers... how about Terry Sawchuk? He was traded by the Red Wings to Boston to make room for Glenn Hall. Then two seasons later, he was picked back up in return for young, up and coming Johnny Bucyk. And in 1964, he was left unprotected for the intraleague draft in order to make room for Roger Crozier.

Osgood isn't so different from Sawchuk now, is he?

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#32 F.Michael

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 07:57 AM

Osgood IMO is the next Glenn Anderson inductee into the HOF; has benefitted from having a great team in front of him throughout most of his career, but his numbers don't lie - they're pretty damn good considering he's not Roy, Brodeur, or Hasek.

And just like Anderson - Ozzie will get in sometime down the road.

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#33 eva unit zero

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 08:55 AM

Osgood IMO is the next Glenn Anderson inductee into the HOF; has benefitted from having a great team in front of him throughout most of his career, but his numbers don't lie - they're pretty damn good considering he's not Roy, Brodeur, or Hasek.

And just like Anderson - Ozzie will get in sometime down the road.


Anderson was at best the seventh most important Oiler during his time there. He was a second liner and a support player outside of Edmonton. Osgood was one of the three or four most important Wings during his prime. Osgood was also a very important player to his team for most of his career. The comparison isn't valid.
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#34 F.Michael

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 09:18 AM

Anderson was at best the seventh most important Oiler during his time there. He was a second liner and a support player outside of Edmonton. Osgood was one of the three or four most important Wings during his prime. Osgood was also a very important player to his team for most of his career. The comparison isn't valid.

:lol:


Either way I'm of the opinion that Ozzie will get in.

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#35 Travis

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 11:41 AM

Scott Burnside makes his case for Chris Osgood - ESPN.com

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#36 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 11:56 AM

Here are some interesting stats I found on a different site. Just some points to possibly consider:

Out of curiosity, what site?

I think Ozzy is on the bubble for getting in, but holy misuse of statistics. How about a little context?

Interesting stats regarding Chris Osgood, when arguing with pro-Hall people:

- Without the shootout, he would have 391 wins, not 401

- The Red Wings had a .629 win percentage with him in net, but .640 when he wasn’t in the net


what's the sample size? Are you talking about when he was on the team but not starting?

- During Osgood’s career, the average save percentage of all goalies in the NHL was 0.9059. Osgood’s was 0.9051. Call it even. But that means half the goalies were better, half worse.

It doesn't mean that actually. And I'm curious who compiled the list of save percentage for every goalie in the league during the specific time of Ozzy's career, minus his stats of course. Seems unlikely they got that right.

- On Osgood’s various teams, his career GAA was 2.49. The other goalies on those teams during that time boasted 2.47.

Doesn't mean much. It compares backups to starters. Backups usually face easier competition and don't start as many games. And again, it seems unlikely that someone piled that exact stat, accounting for the games where Ozzy started versus the other goalie on the team.

- While he was the DET goalie, he won three cups in 14 seasons (one as a backup). But during the three years that he was not in Detroit, they still won one. So winning Cups 21% of the time with him there (less if you consider he was backup once)…versus winning the Cup 33% of the time with him not there.

This "stat" makes no sense. You're trying to make him look bad by using percentages where it's not a relevant measure. I could just as easily say that of the 4 Cups the Red Wings have won in the last 50 years, Osgood was there for three of them. So there seems to be a high correlation between Osgood and the Wings winning the Cup, right?

- He’s eighth in career playoff wins. He’s also 11th in career playoff losses.

That looks pretty damning, but I guess you forgot to list who was in front of him for losses. Roy, Brodeur, Belfour, Cujo, Hall, Moog, Vernon, Barasso, Esposito and Fuhr. Not exactly bad company. When you're in the playoffs a lot, you're going to lose more than a lot of goalies. Ty Conklin must be a great goalie because he's only ever lost one playoffs game, right?

- He’s clutch? His regular season win percentage is .603.

Actually a site I found had him listed at .539. That's still good enough for 6th on the all time list, ahead of Roy and Hasek. Dryden was #1 with .650. Dryden was a great goalie who spent his career on one of the greatest dynasties of all time.

His playoff win percentage is .574. He is 2-4 in Game 7 games. Yes, pretty clutch

You didn't mention that puts him at #14 all time, with many of the goalies in front of him playing significantly fewer games. or that Hasek is at .546, Brodeur is at .547. I guess they don't belong in the hall either?

- He lost the starting gig to Manny Legace and Garth Snow. I don’t think a Hall-of-Famer ever lost his starting job to anybody ever while in his prime.

Eva took care of this last one.

Edited by haroldsnepsts, 26 July 2011 - 11:59 AM.


#37 stinky fish taco

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Posted 26 July 2011 - 01:41 PM

he will not make it in, nor should he.

Helm is a perennial Selke candidate

LOL

#38 Packer487

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 02:43 AM

His numbers do put him as the best of the best.

His play does too, he was clutch which is worth a hell of a lot more. I watched the games before Osgood, during his hay day, and after and still don't think there is a glove hand as good as his. There definitely is not a stronger mental Constitution among goaltenders. He isn't the number one goaltender of all time, but he without a doubt is in the top twenty, and as you said there are thirty or so tenders in the hall so I don't see why you would leave him out just because he was on a good team.

I seem to remember there being a HoF defenseman on the Devils... should we leave Marty out? Oh s***, Yzerman played with tons of hall of famers, better leave him out as well. If these statements seem absurd, it is because they are. Osgood shouldn't get that treatment.


That's true about his numbers. And actually that was the very first thing I said in my post.

He was clutch in 08. I'll never forget his play during that playoffs. He was fantastic. That year.

He's not a top-20 goalie of all-time. This was exactly the point I was trying to make about him being severely overrated and underrated at the same time. The guy was never voted the best goalie in the league for one season. The Wings dropped him in a hot second when Hasek became available (even at age 36) and he had like 3 great seasons in the decade after that. He was a good goalie overall, there were a few season he was great, there were a few seasons he was terrible.

I'm not leaving him out just because he was on a good team or because he played with Hall of Famers. I specifically made a point of saying that argument is kind of lame and that it doesn't give him nearly enough credit he deserves (this would be the "underrated" part of the argument). He was clearly a big part of the wins that the Wings piled up over the years. But it's also true that it's highly unlikely that he'd be top 10 in wins if he had played 70% of his career with the Islanders. The team does play a role in it, and it's why I look at more than just wins and losses.

I leave him out because in my opinion there were only a 2-3 seasons where I'd have put him in the top 15-20% (that's 5-6) starting goalies in the league. If I was going to throw his seasons into buckets for great (96, 04, 08), good (95, 97, 98, 00, 02), average (94, 99, 07), below average (01,09 only because of how good the playoffs were,11), and horrid (03, 06, 10), it's actually fairly even.

8 season good or great
3 seasons fairly average
6 seasons below average or awful

Those are fairly unscientific rankings, but it's still more subpar seasons than I'd want out of a Hall of Fame goalie and fairly in line with my opinion. Good goalie overall, had some great seasons, but had an awful lot of seasons where he wasn't that great.

There's no shame in being a really good player for a long time in the NHL and not making the HHOF. I wouldn't put him there largely for qualitative reasons more than quantitative. If it was rare that I'd put him with the greats of a season, I can't put him with the greats of all-time....





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