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eva unit zero

Third line players who suck

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Given all of the Hudler hate on the board, and the fact that people think his performance last season was terrible, horrible, whatever description you like, I thought I would ask this question.

What third-line (based on ice time) players around the league do you think 'suck' who plays a scoring role, yet still put up around 40 points? I'd like to see the list of names this board comes up with just so we have an idea of who is having comparable seasons to what Hudler did last year. I'll start it off with a few names:

Mason Raymond, Vancouver

Tomas Kopecky, Chicago

Devin Setoguchi, San Jose

Anthony Stewart, Atlanta

Tomas Holmstrom, Detroit

James van Riemsdyk, Philadelphia

Brian Boyle, Rangers

There are a great deal more out there. Anyone care to list them? Who out there is a terrible player who played in a scoring role and put up similar numbers to Hudler?

How about notably worse numbers? We can bring up these guys:

Ruslan Fedotenko, Rangers

Marc Savard, Boston

Jason Arnott, Washington

Radek Dvorak, Atlanta

James021, Uncle Danny, 55fan and 1 other like this

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Sure, Hudler can put up 40+ points, but that's about it. No defensive responsibility, no checking of any kind, no speed, no net-front presence, no "grit". If someone whose only talent is to score is not scoring as much as he should, then he didn't perform very well. If he brought something else to the table - which he does not - a sub-par year numbers-wise may be forgiven. That's not the case with Happy.

edit: I realize I completely ignored the point of your thread, but this is part of my ongoing effort to make you understand why nobody likes Hudler here. It's not blind hate.

Edited by ComradeWasabi
hooon likes this

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his lack of visual dedication is what gets on everybodys nerves.

i personally like happy...but i understand the hate and discontent.

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Third line players generally don't do a lot of scoring on most teams. They might chip in a decent amout of points here and there, but their primary responsibility should be on defense and basically being a plug while the scoring lines take a rest. There are a lot of players that could put up similar points to other third liners in the NHL but don't make it because they don't provide the aforementioned grit or other intangibles.

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You shouldn't be using words like "nobody" and "everybody". I don't have a problem with Hudler. I don't follow fashions. Although I understand that during the long hockeyless summer months the ancient God of LGW get restless and demands sacrifices.

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Given all of the Hudler hate on the board, and the fact that people think his performance last season was terrible, horrible, whatever description you like, I thought I would ask this question.

What third-line (based on ice time) players around the league do you think 'suck' who plays a scoring role, yet still put up around 40 points? I'd like to see the list of names this board comes up with just so we have an idea of who is having comparable seasons to what Hudler did last year. I'll start it off with a few names:

Mason Raymond, Vancouver

Tomas Kopecky, Chicago

Devin Setoguchi, San Jose

Anthony Stewart, Atlanta

Tomas Holmstrom, Detroit

James van Riemsdyk, Philadelphia

Brian Boyle, Rangers

There are a great deal more out there. Anyone care to list them? Who out there is a terrible player who played in a scoring role and put up similar numbers to Hudler?

How about notably worse numbers? We can bring up these guys:

Ruslan Fedotenko, Rangers

Marc Savard, Boston

Jason Arnott, Washington

Radek Dvorak, Atlanta

:hysterical: You are so funny, first of all Holmstrom is 38 years old, and he is STILL out performing Hudler at 26. Same amount of points last year in the same amount of games, but Holmstrom's points are earned in a way that Hudler could NEVER understand NOR would he ever attempt. I'd take one Holmstrom over four Hudler's anytime and anyday. We aren't even going to mention Holmstrom's worth to this team over Hudler in the the playoffs... You are just taking your love for Hudler way too far now bud, just stop, please, stop.

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:hysterical: You are so funny, first of all Holmstrom is 38 years old, and he is STILL out performing Hudler at 26. Same amount of points last year in the same amount of games, but Holmstrom's points are earned in a way that Hudler could NEVER understand NOR would he ever attempt. I'd take one Holmstrom over four Hudler's anytime and anyday. We aren't even going to mention Holmstrom's worth to this team over Hudler in the the playoffs... You are just taking your love for Hudler way too far now bud, just stop, please, stop.

Calm down. Eva's point was that Hudler's producing OK for a third liner.

Finnish Wing likes this

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Calm down. Eva's point was that Hudler's producing OK for a third liner.

...and that, according to his thread title, Holmstrom sucks. My point is Holmstrom at 37 points is 100,000,000 times better than Hudler, at any point in his career.... Hudler will never be anywhere near the player Holmstrom was/is/will be.

newfy likes this

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...and that, according to his thread title, Holmstrom sucks. My point is Holmstrom at 37 points is 100,000,000 times better than Hudler, at any point in his career.... Hudler will never be anywhere near the player Holmstrom was/is/will be.

The title was sarcasm of course. I do agree that Holmström is more useful player. Eva's comparison was based on numbers and numbers only and that's fine because numbers are concrete unlike for example defensive awareness. I think that there are better third liners in the league than Hudler, but he's fine. It would be nice if no-one attacked eva for defending him. Eva seems to be a bit number-crazy, but there have been wackier people here. Hudler's become too much of a scapegoat here and eva brings nice colour to the conversation.

Uncle Danny likes this

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Hudler is what he is, a small OFFENSIVE player, with not a lot of defensive awareness. There are a s*** load of them around the league and used properly they SCORE POINTS and some have conracts that make Hudler's look like chicken feed. He needs to be used as a sniper (Brett Hull type) if the Wings are unable to create that invironment for him then they should have traded him a long time ago. I'm not saying he would ever be as good as Hull but on the right line I think he could become a 60/70 point producer. Defensively I don't think he is any worse than Fransen, and I sure as hell don't think Fransen is any more physical.

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Hudler is what he is, a small OFFENSIVE player, with not a lot of defensive awareness. There are a s*** load of them around the league and used properly they SCORE POINTS and some have conracts that make Hudler's look like chicken feed. He needs to be used as a sniper (Brett Hull type) if the Wings are unable to create that invironment for him then they should have traded him a long time ago. I'm not saying he would ever be as good as Hull but on the right line I think he could become a 60/70 point producer. Defensively I don't think he is any worse than Fransen, and I sure as hell don't think Fransen is any more physical.

As much as I dislike hudler as a player, I can agree with everything you said! I hope he becomes a 70+ point scorer, I really do, but next year so if he re-signs here it will be cheap. If he gets 70 pts this year, he get $5M.

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Strictly all and only offensively built teams don't win champions. You have to be a balanced team in many areas. Detroit is lacking a complete third and fourth line right now. I don't care who disagrees with me. The third liners should be more physical, defensive, and aggressive with some goal scoring being a secondary request. Hudler is not a third line player. He should be on a second line on a DIFFERENT team. He could fit in very nicely on teams that have big, physical, role type of players to give that extra offensive ability on teams who are lacking it. I agree many of u say we need a top 6 foward but we need a top 4, shanahan (or what mule use to play like; aggresive and sniper like), type of player on one of the top 2 lines who can also skate with zetterberg and datsyuk. That would help conserve dats and zetts energy from trying to do it all and make our top 2 lines a bigger threat.

Sorry I got carried away from Hudler for a second. But my point is that Hudler is a decent offensive player, that's right ONLY offensive, but just doesn't fit the needs of the Red Wings right now. We need different types of players that fit the roles of the third and fourth line.

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How about notably worse numbers? We can bring up these guys:

Ruslan Fedotenko, Rangers

Marc Savard, Boston

Jason Arnott, Washington

Radek Dvorak, Atlanta

Marc Savard? Really? A healthy Hudler (which he is) couldn't dream of putting up the numbers of a healthy, non-concussed Marc Savard...who wouldn't be on the 3rd line.

hooon and anthonyn66 like this

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Marc Savard? Really? A healthy Hudler (which he is) couldn't dream of putting up the numbers of a healthy, non-concussed Marc Savard...who wouldn't be on the 3rd line.

From Dec 2nd through Jan 22nd, Savard played 25 games and scored 2 goals and 8 assists. In that same time span, Hudler scored 3 goals and 8 assists in 24 games. Remarkably similar stats. You can go on about a non-concussed Savard, but what about a Hudler that hadn't gone to the KHL? Maybe he's an All-Star scorer and Selke contender. We don't have the "maybe what if" numbers. If you want those, we can get Jason Williams' injury history involved.

Drake_Marcus and Uncle Danny like this

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His infamous "100 point pace" happened when he was playing with Datsyuk and Cleary on the top line.

I wouldn't call him a true 3rd liner last season, with that fact and the powerplay time he got.

Calm down. Eva's point was that Hudler's producing OK for a third liner.

Except he wasn't always a third liner. See my post above. Hudler got time on the powerplay and played a while with Datsyuk.

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Sure, Hudler can put up 40+ points, but that's about it. No defensive responsibility, no checking of any kind, no speed, no net-front presence, no "grit". If someone whose only talent is to score is not scoring as much as he should, then he didn't perform very well. If he brought something else to the table - which he does not - a sub-par year numbers-wise may be forgiven. That's not the case with Happy.

edit: I realize I completely ignored the point of your thread, but this is part of my ongoing effort to make you understand why nobody likes Hudler here. It's not blind hate.

In terms of raw talent, Hudler is the third most talented forward on the team. He had a terrible start o last year, and followed it up with a stellar second half. What most people are ultimately upset about is the fact that he is so talented, yet hasn't brought a huge year because of his size and speed. I'm expecting Filppula to start getting the same kind of hate soon; we're already seeing the "trade Flip for a real top-six forward and give Helm his job" stuff, and Flip has yet to really prove he can really be a second line center, when he's been paid like one for years.

It's like Brian Rafalski. People loved the signing, until he got older and was not one of the top five or ten best defensemen in the league. Then he became an overpaid liability and the worst defenseman on the team, even though he was still getting Norris votes.

Drake_Marcus and Uncle Danny like this

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I love these "SET UP" threads. Why start a whole thread to just have everyone say the same things to you and you argue their points...we have seen these over and over and over....and over. I'm sure all wings fans would love for Hudler to be better then he is...and yes sometimes he looks and feels better than a 3rd liner but to me in my eyes it happens less. He to me is just one of those cursed players on a stacked team that will never sniff the top line much where im sure he would excel more. On another team if he were getting top line play im sure he would be an above avg player but here he to me is avg to below.

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From Dec 2nd through Jan 22nd, Savard played 25 games and scored 2 goals and 8 assists. In that same time span, Hudler scored 3 goals and 8 assists in 24 games. Remarkably similar stats. You can go on about a non-concussed Savard, but what about a Hudler that hadn't gone to the KHL? Maybe he's an All-Star scorer and Selke contender. We don't have the "maybe what if" numbers. If you want those, we can get Jason Williams' injury history involved.

So in his 13 season career, you're going to use 25 games where he was returning from a devastating concussion to call Savard a third line forward? Makes perfect sense. :rolleyes:

Hudler was playing professional hockey in the KHL, while Savard was hoping headaches and other concussion symptoms would go away so he could start working out again. It's not nearly the same thing. And unlike your example with Hudler maybe being an all-star scorer, Savard has actually been just that. Twice. It's not speculation. It's happened.

Before the 25 game sample you've cherrypicked between his concussions, Savard had 33 points in 41 games. Before that when he was playing pretty much full seasons his point totals were 88, 78, 96 and 97. In other words, take most of Hudler's stats and double them, and you'll be around Savard's totals.

If you're trying to make a case to people that Hudler isn't as bad as people say he is compared to other third line players in the league (which is a relatively sound argument) you only weaken your case and credibility with crazy ass things like including Savard in the mix.

And making threats about derailing this thread with your absurd Jason Williams argument doesn't exactly strengthen your case either. Unlike Williams, Savard has put up impressive points totals in one single season.

In terms of raw talent, Hudler is the third most talented forward on the team. He had a terrible start o last year, and followed it up with a stellar second half. What most people are ultimately upset about is the fact that he is so talented, yet hasn't brought a huge year because of his size and speed. I'm expecting Filppula to start getting the same kind of hate soon; we're already seeing the "trade Flip for a real top-six forward and give Helm his job" stuff, and Flip has yet to really prove he can really be a second line center, when he's been paid like one for years.

It's like Brian Rafalski. People loved the signing, until he got older and was not one of the top five or ten best defensemen in the league. Then he became an overpaid liability and the worst defenseman on the team, even though he was still getting Norris votes.

Third?

Who is he in front of? Zetterberg? Franzen? It's sure not Dats.

Flip does get hate here, but even when he's underperforming offensively year after year, he's a solid two way center who can handle the second line. Hudler has zero other positive attributes other than scoring. So when he's not doing that, he's dead weight in the lineup. Especially when you consider that Flip only makes $125k more than Hudler, and they put up virtually the same point totals.

Don't get me wrong, I think everyone is eagerly waiting for Flip to produce more offensively, but when he's not, he's at least still useful.

Edited by haroldsnepsts

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In terms of raw talent, Hudler is the third most talented forward on the team. He had a terrible start o last year, and followed it up with a stellar second half. What most people are ultimately upset about is the fact that he is so talented, yet hasn't brought a huge year because of his size and speed. I'm expecting Filppula to start getting the same kind of hate soon; we're already seeing the "trade Flip for a real top-six forward and give Helm his job" stuff, and Flip has yet to really prove he can really be a second line center, when he's been paid like one for years.

It's like Brian Rafalski. People loved the signing, until he got older and was not one of the top five or ten best defensemen in the league. Then he became an overpaid liability and the worst defenseman on the team, even though he was still getting Norris votes.

I don't hate hudler but I don't think he fits Detroit's needs right now. As far as filppula I would not trade him even if he never cracks 40 points. He is an all around player who does pp, pk, plays on different lines, stick handles well, and at times is aggressive. Fil is a hell of a lot better player than Hudler.

I would trade cleary, miller, bert, eaves, and even franzen over filppula anyday. You don't trade a player who can play all the different roles. I don't get why people want to use him for trade bait.

Note* I never said fil is a better player than frazen to those who will assume that is why I would trade franzen.

Edited by RedWingsExpert1988

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From Dec 2nd through Jan 22nd, Savard played 25 games and scored 2 goals and 8 assists. In that same time span, Hudler scored 3 goals and 8 assists in 24 games. Remarkably similar stats. You can go on about a non-concussed Savard, but what about a Hudler that hadn't gone to the KHL? Maybe he's an All-Star scorer and Selke contender. We don't have the "maybe what if" numbers. If you want those, we can get Jason Williams' injury history involved.

Straw grasping. I'm looking at entire careers here. There is no one with any modicum of common sense that would choose a healthy Savard over Huds, even at Savard's age. Let's not even mention that he was producing over a point-per-game when he was 27 years old. I'll give you credit when Hudler has similar stats when he's 34 but right now you're trying to tell us all that a Ford Mustang GT performs the same as a Ferrari 599 GTB.

I'm not a Hudler hater like many here, but I'm not on his payroll either. Hopefully he proves us wrong. My opinion is that his salary could be better spent elsewhere. I'm sure if it were possible for Holland, Hudler would be be wearing a different uniform at training camp. Unfortunately for the Wings, the rest of the NHL sees what most of this board has been pointing out to you all summer long. He must pay well.

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dont base it on what line they play on, base it on their salary thats what really count in the cap world. if hudler was making 1 mil then i would be extremely happy with his performance. But hes not.

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Third line players (generally) need to be well rounded. If I third-line player is one dimensional, than he (generally) sucks at being a third liner. If he is great at defense, but has no offensive talent, he should likely be on the fourth line. If he has offensive talent, but not enough to break in to the top-six, and no defensive talent, he might not have a spot on the team (see Jason Williams).

Obviously this thread is about Hudler. He gets a bad reputation on this board because he is a one dimensional player who isn't skilled enough to crack the Wings' top six and doesn't have chemistry with many players (on the ice). If he produced ~.7ppg again, I don't think you'd see much hate here. However, last year he didn't produce. No amount of what ifs, predictions, averages, etc can forgive his lackluster season. I'd love for the line of Cleary- Abby- Huds to work, but who knows.

There are few players who can be a good third liner while being one-dimensional. The Wings are one of the few teams where it might work (due to scoring depth), but last season it did not.

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His infamous "100 point pace" happened when he was playing with Datsyuk and Cleary on the top line.

I wouldn't call him a true 3rd liner last season, with that fact and the powerplay time he got.

Except he wasn't always a third liner. See my post above. Hudler got time on the powerplay and played a while with Datsyuk.

While Hudler and Datsyuk were together, Hudler outscored Datsyuk. That's an awfully interesting thing to happen during the same span you seem to be giving credit for his entire season's worth of production.

Maybe you then agree that Hudler should be on the top line with Datsyuk, scoring crazy amounts of points instead of playing on a line with Abdelkader and Miller or whatever assembly you have planned.

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While Hudler and Datsyuk were together, Hudler outscored Datsyuk. That's an awfully interesting thing to happen during the same span you seem to be giving credit for his entire season's worth of production.

Maybe you then agree that Hudler should be on the top line with Datsyuk, scoring crazy amounts of points instead of playing on a line with Abdelkader and Miller or whatever assembly you have planned.

Every once in a while a blind squirrel will still find a nut...

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