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#81 13GoWings40

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 11:14 PM

Wow, straw man, wow. If you're going to go there, I guess I will to while further defending my position on this matter.

The ideas of holding Amway responsible for their part in running a sleazy, manipulative business and holding individuals joining in that business responsible for their actions are not mutually exclusive. By no means would I suggest that all the Amway "IBO's" are any more victims of Amway's schemes as they are their own greed and gullibility. Ask any friend of mine that's gotten involved and then out of Amway if I ever gave them a pass and they'll tell you flat out that I didn't hold any punches in making them acknowledge what went profoundly wrong in their thought process.

The main colossal flaw in your perspective is very simple to illustrate. Just consider drug dealers and drug addicts. Is anyone in their right mind going to pronounce the drug dealer innocent by virtue of capitalism and the drug addicts guilty because they made the choice to buy the drugs? Does that make any sense at all? I don't think so.

Few things in life are black and white. Is it not possible that both have slipped up here? And in an effort to address a general problem, is it not reasonable to want to look for root causes? Is it not reasonable to objectively evaluate the whole of a problem to better understand it? Surely no more unreasonable than seemingly suggesting that we shouldn't criticize Amway, again, seemingly by virtue of the positive economic and social benefits of the capitalist system in general, as a wrong-doer.

The only thing black and white about this topic to me is that there are a lot of people running the scheme and placing their hope on the scheme that are making harmful choices. The primary difference between the runners and the participants though is that for the most part, in the short-term, an Amway "IBO" is making choices that hurt themselves. But Amway's decision to resort to a business model that clearly is centered around exploiting people's weaknesses and circumventing people's typical consumer defenses. It's a business model that is underhanded and predatory.

And lumping Amway in with capitalists is disrespectful to the essence of capitalism. The product Amway is most profiting on is (false) hope. The "products" you supposedly join Amway to sell are almost entirely purchased by and for the Amway IBO's, though internally you're simply "investing into your business." All the while you're also pouring more money into your Amway membership, a never-ending supply of "motivational and educational" material to help you grow your business, conferences to further inspire you, and if you manage to wind up sticking with it long enough to get some people under you, you're buying their "consumer products" too, and by that I mean far too often, the people under you that you're purchasing the vitamins for don't pay up. Nothing you can do about that. Oh well, just chalk it up to an "investment in your business."

Bottom line, Amway is anything but a commendable capitalist venture. No corporation or business is perfect, but usually most businesses are actually trying to offer an actual product or service that is of some tangible substance to someone. And what truly is great about capitalism is that if you have a great product that a lot of people want, you will be rewarded for producing and selling it, and I take no issue with this concept at all. But again, when looked at wholistically and objectively, it's clear that Amway is not producing a product that offers consumers much in terms of utility. Indeed, their primary product, the hope and the dream, is essentially vaporware, to use the word generally.

Furthermore, they have engineered their system to trip people's defenses up by infiltrating organizations, churches, clubs, basically any group of people that already has a built-in trust factor. They use that trust and social pressure against people, as well as every other little trick to take advantage of the less noble aspects of human nature. They know this. They've spent years crafting their "drug," and just as much time pin-pointing the easiest targets. They know exactly what they're doing. Again, it's predatory and underhanded.

You can easily dig deeper and mine up plenty of information to suggest that their ill-informed financial choices hurt the society and economy on whole as well. Just like all the terrible real-estate loans given out in the late-90's that came back to haunt us in 2008, people made poor personal decisions that ended up hurting the economy and society on whole. In that case as well, it's absurd and illogical to only blame the banks for offering the loans or only blame those taking the loans for taking more than they could expect to reasonably handle. All parties involved made poor decisions. I don't care who you are or what side you're on, if you're making poor decisions, you're part of the problem.

By this reasonable logic, I conclude that Amway is very much part of the problem. They are not the whole of the problem and their part in it does not minimize the role of personal responsibility at all. But they are the purveyors of a blatantly crooked business model that has been shown time and time again to have a tremendous negative effect on people's lives. That matter has nothing to do with capitalism, and as clearly illustrated, the logic that justifies their actions by virtue of capitalism opens plenty of doors to effects that I absolutely guarantee would send you crying to your knees if they came knocking on your doorstep.

Quite simply, Amway does infinitely more harm than good for society. Most any reasonable, objective, informed person can logically understand and defend that accusation. To many of us, the logical side of it as well as the emotional side of having to deal with friends and family who's lives were devastated by joining Amway leave us with nothing but contempt and disgust for Amway. That is why we don't want to have a team we love have much of anything to do with Amway if at all possible, let alone having to incessantly read and hear "the Detroit Red Wings presented by Amway."

The Detroit Red Wings, one of the classiest organizations in all of sports, presented by Amway, a company always bound to be one of the scummiest on any list of sleazy businesses.

The whole idea is nothing short of utterly disgraceful.


Explain how the business model is "blatantly crooked"

Again, if you invest a couple hundred dollars and don't make any money you have 2 choices:

1.Stop investing, cut your losses, move on with your life.
2. Spend thousands more on useless crap someone tells you might help you make money

It is no one's fault but your own if you choose option #2

#82 gcom007

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 11:15 PM

Not totally familiar with the intricacies of Amway, but they ARE shady. That being said, it's not their fault people fall for it. They are not technically doing anything illegal. From what I understand, they even buy back the merchandise that an IBO doesn't sell, which sort of disqualifies it for the "pyramid scheme" plan. If people get way too caught up in it, that's their own problem. It's really no different than blogging online. You're not going to make a ton of money doing it, and you should realize that, not let it destroy your life thinking you're "next big payday" is just around the corner.

Still do NOT like this partnership, not a great organization and kind of makes me wonder about Illitch now.


A) I know a guy who lost $15,000 alone in products that people under him "bought" and didn't pay for. It wasn't in one fell swoop, but the way the numbers are incessantly distorted by the higher ups and with all the propaganda and "positivity," it's a matter that easily gets overlooked. And it's most certainly not a matter in which Amway/Quixtar was willing to help him out on at any point in time, despite him making the effort. I'm not sure what they have in print on the matter, but I think most anyone with a bit of knowledge on their inner workings understands that the written rules don't dictate the way the company is run. They're just their to satisfy lawmakers for a little while and give the impression of security and support.

B) Opinion: maybe not technically illegal, but most positively should be. It's not hard to draw lines in the sand for good reason and enforce them with common sense. The intricacy of the legal manipulation of the law is where it gets muddy. The common sense, no-nonsense approach to enforcement would be simple: if you're more concerned with selling people on a business opportunity than selling the "product" you're supposedly selling, shut it down. It's bound to lead to scams and schemes that do society on whole no good. The source of any profits would clearly paint the picture too.

C) Sure, again, it is their own problem if they get caught up in it, but it doesn't excuse the purveyor of the scheme. Amway's business is built on lies and deceit. Blogging is a trap that's completely self-contained. You're not surrounded by a circle of people that are trying to isolate you from those that bring common sense to the table. There's no huge propaganda machine working directly in people's lives in so many different ways to trap you in, much like a cult does. Amway's psychological attack strategies are fairly unique and one of the primary and most-alarming problems with the whole system. It's the poison that makes Amway most dangerous.

D) again, not their fault? To me, it's the same as saying it's not a drug dealers fault people are drug addicts. It's as if it wasn't their plan to get people involved in such a manner. Make no mistake, everything Amway does is very intentional. It's not a happy accident they stumbled upon at all. Furthermore, again and again it's been illustrated how much the business hurts people, yet they continue to push it with more and more steam. I mean...I mean...I'm about to go caps lock here against my better judgement...I MEAN, WHY DOES ANYONE THINK THEY'RE TRYING TO NOW GET LINKED UP WITH THE RED WINGS?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? It's just another door they're trying to pry open to get into people's heads with a system they know will almost certainly be a drain on peoples money, time and relationships. They know the score. They know exactly what they're doing. Make no mistake about it.
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#83 Uncle Danny

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 11:31 PM

Does it make you feel smart to talk down to anonymous people on the internet?

To answer your question I am 21 (D.O.B. 11/28/1989), I graduated from U-M in December and have been unemployed ever since. But guess what, I don't expect the government to pay off my student loans, or keep me from making bad investments like spending $100,000 on a history degree that I now have to find some way to pay back, or pay for me to sit on my ass and do nothing. The choices I have made in life are my own and I don't have anyone to blame for my current position but myself, the burden of those decisions falls solely on myself and those members of my family who are willing to help me. I can't believe the only negs I have ever gotten were for a post defending capitalism and extolling the virtues of personal responsibility...

The point of my post was that any adult knows that you can't work 10 hours a week and make $250,000 a year, unless maybe you've put in 20+ years of 80 hour work weeks already. Anyone who knows anything about business knows you don't keep dumping money into a business that isn't profitable. People who lose their money in these kinds of schemes are people who are looking to get rich quick without doing any work. I am sorry, life does not work that way.


Yes. I am also sorry that life does not work that way. Thank you for the lesson. I feel more adult now.
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#84 13GoWings40

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Posted 05 September 2011 - 11:42 PM

nm

Edited by 13GoWings40, 07 September 2011 - 01:07 PM.
Political opinions belong in PD forum.


#85 gcom007

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Posted 06 September 2011 - 12:15 AM

Does it make you feel smart to talk down to anonymous people on the internet?

To answer your question I am 21 (D.O.B. 11/28/1989), I graduated from U-M in December and have been unemployed ever since. But guess what, I don't expect the government to pay off my student loans, or keep me from making bad investments like spending $100,000 on a history degree that I now have to find some way to pay back, or pay for me to sit on my ass and do nothing. The choices I have made in life are my own and I don't have anyone to blame for my current position but myself, the burden of those decisions falls solely on myself and those members of my family who are willing to help me. I can't believe the only negs I have ever gotten were for a post defending capitalism and extolling the virtues of personal responsibility...

The point of my post was that any adult knows that you can't work 10 hours a week and make $250,000 a year, unless maybe you've put in 20+ years of 80 hour work weeks already. Anyone who knows anything about business knows you don't keep dumping money into a business that isn't profitable. People who lose their money in these kinds of schemes are people who are looking to get rich quick without doing any work. I am sorry, life does not work that way.


On nearly every point here I agee with you. We are on the same page when it comes to personal responsibility. Again, I don't give out any sort of magic golden victim passes to current and former Amway IBO's, and I'm in the same boat, though further along in the process, of paying off college debt myself. Interestingly enough, I too racked up some of that debt while pursuing a history degree from U of M (doubling in Econ, minor in PR) though I dropped history 3 and a half years in when I realized that I didn't want to be a lawyer and that was about all having a history degree would be good for given my ambitions, which changed drastically in light of these realizations.

Anyways, the matter of difference that remains is that there are predatory companies out there that prey on the ignorant. That's probably the nicest way of putting it. We all know "those people" that just don't connect dots. They're not the types that think they'll get rich working 10 hours a week. Those people drop out almost immediately when they realize how much work it really is no matter if they were getting paid or not. All of the people who sign up for a couple months and drop a few hundred bucks in are of no consequence here. They're not the one's with the ugly stories. And again, I am by no means liberating any of these people of responsibility.

I've outlined extensively the tactics Amway uses to sucker people in. Countless before me have outlined extensively how it's next to impossible to make money with Amway even when you do everything right and put in 60-80+ hours a week. It's no big secret that Amway is a giant scam. You can look at the situation in a general way and adopt a black and white approach, but I'll be respectfully frank and say that I think your opinion on the matter is based on weak-minded analysis. I get where you're coming from and your foundation is rock-solid, but the fact that people make personal choices by no means changes the fact that what Amway does isn't right. You can get all logical and legal about it and pretend to find solace in it, but at the end of the day, you're still left looking at a business built on the devestated lives of countless people who were dumb enough to buy into it. It's an ugly picture from both sides, but it can be addressed far easier by going after the purveyor rather than by blaming the individuals.

Getting rid of Amway and schemes like it wouldn't solve every ignorant person's problems, but it's one less huge business who's whole operation is based on ripping off these ignorant people. And it certainly wouldn't kill capitalism. It wouldn't put a dent in it at all. Because again, when push comes to shove, Amway is more of a religious cult than a business participating in the capitalist system. They're "bodysnatchers," looking for people to bleed, not people to sell a product to. There really is a clear distinction.

I don't know. I've tried. If you can't see this, and you really believe that it all boils down to the ups and downs of capitalism, then there's little more I can say.
-Elliot...does not panic.

#86 gcom007

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Posted 06 September 2011 - 12:32 AM

My post somehow got relegated to the end of page 4.

Maybe a bump is in order.

Where are my mod powers at so I can /thread?


With the announcement of this relationship, how Amway conducts their business is very much now tied to the Red Wings image. That's why people are pissed. I imagine that simple fact is why this thread has been allowed to go on. There's no way to discuss this matter without acknowledging what Amway stands for. It's a profoundly negative association for this team to have. Even I'm shocked by how in a matter of days my respect level has sunk for this organization. Again, literally, Amway is the absolute last company I would ever want to be this closely associated with the Wings. A close second would be "the Detroit Red Wings presented by Wal-Mart." The Red Wings have been epitomized by pure class, but now it reeks of pure greed and negligence. At this point in time, I cannot believe that this is an organization that cares about the well-being of it's fans. No one with genuine care or concern for the people is going to want to team up this publicly with a company like Amway. This is about money, plain and simple, no matter the cost.
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#87 cusimano_brothers

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Posted 06 September 2011 - 08:09 AM

Who would have had the "final word" on making this decision?

"Mess up tomorrow, don't mess up now".

- Harry James Benson, CBE.


#88 13GoWings40

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Posted 06 September 2011 - 01:28 PM

On nearly every point here I agee with you. We are on the same page when it comes to personal responsibility. Again, I don't give out any sort of magic golden victim passes to current and former Amway IBO's, and I'm in the same boat, though further along in the process, of paying off college debt myself. Interestingly enough, I too racked up some of that debt while pursuing a history degree from U of M (doubling in Econ, minor in PR) though I dropped history 3 and a half years in when I realized that I didn't want to be a lawyer and that was about all having a history degree would be good for given my ambitions, which changed drastically in light of these realizations.

Anyways, the matter of difference that remains is that there are predatory companies out there that prey on the ignorant. That's probably the nicest way of putting it. We all know "those people" that just don't connect dots. They're not the types that think they'll get rich working 10 hours a week. Those people drop out almost immediately when they realize how much work it really is no matter if they were getting paid or not. All of the people who sign up for a couple months and drop a few hundred bucks in are of no consequence here. They're not the one's with the ugly stories. And again, I am by no means liberating any of these people of responsibility.

I've outlined extensively the tactics Amway uses to sucker people in. Countless before me have outlined extensively how it's next to impossible to make money with Amway even when you do everything right and put in 60-80+ hours a week. It's no big secret that Amway is a giant scam. You can look at the situation in a general way and adopt a black and white approach, but I'll be respectfully frank and say that I think your opinion on the matter is based on weak-minded analysis. I get where you're coming from and your foundation is rock-solid, but the fact that people make personal choices by no means changes the fact that what Amway does isn't right. You can get all logical and legal about it and pretend to find solace in it, but at the end of the day, you're still left looking at a business built on the devestated lives of countless people who were dumb enough to buy into it. It's an ugly picture from both sides, but it can be addressed far easier by going after the purveyor rather than by blaming the individuals.

Getting rid of Amway and schemes like it wouldn't solve every ignorant person's problems, but it's one less huge business who's whole operation is based on ripping off these ignorant people. And it certainly wouldn't kill capitalism. It wouldn't put a dent in it at all. Because again, when push comes to shove, Amway is more of a religious cult than a business participating in the capitalist system. They're "bodysnatchers," looking for people to bleed, not people to sell a product to. There really is a clear distinction.

I don't know. I've tried. If you can't see this, and you really believe that it all boils down to the ups and downs of capitalism, then there's little more I can say.


Honestly, I can understand this point. I really haven't seen enough unbiased reporting to truly decide. I just know that people usually blame capitalism, and I was a little drunk off of an encounter with Mr. Daniels last night, and I assumed this was just another baseless attack on capitalism. If they are really criminals, they should be prosecuted. My opinion was based largely on the fact that I supported Mr. Devos in 2006 (despite the fact that I was 16 and too young to vote) and I believe him to be an honest and trustworthy man. However, the truth has no agenda and if I am proven wrong in this assumption, so be it

#89 Uncle Danny

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Posted 06 September 2011 - 05:18 PM

Back OT, I'm probably in the severe minority here when I say that I don't much care about the sponsorship. This is a business, and one business has decided to give another a lot of money in trade for exposure. I happen to agree with most that the choice of partners was ill conceived, and Amway is a bloodsucking scam... but I'm a discerning customer and can choose to ignore their advances and name drops as well as the next guy. I am disappointed that the red and white powers that be didn't decide on a more reputable partner, but cest la vie. Amway doesn't play hockey. Dasyuk, Lidstrom and Hank do. See you all in the regular season ;)
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#90 roboturner

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Posted 06 September 2011 - 08:06 PM

And here I thought that all those Hot-N-Ready pizzas I was buying were helping support the Wings.

This might be getting a little heated. Just know I don't hate any of you guys.

 

That doesn't mean that I respect ideas & opinions. Some ideas & opinions are ridiculous.

 

In fact, if you confront my ideas & opinions, that will lead to a discussion. (We're on a discussion board after all. Don't forget that!)

 

  :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1: :bye1:


#91 cusimano_brothers

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 08:04 AM

A sponsorship with Cialis would make as much sense.

"Mess up tomorrow, don't mess up now".

- Harry James Benson, CBE.


#92 cprice12

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Posted 07 September 2011 - 12:55 PM

Wow.

#93 gcom007

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 05:28 PM

In reading the press release, the contact info for the Red Wings PR Coordinator, Richard Bowness, was listed. Probably a good place to start if you feel lead to express your disappointment in this partnership. I would encourage everyone to respectfully state your position if you do call. And to be clear, I do encourage anyone and everyone who disapproves of this partnership to call in and protest this.

I plan on letting them know that I will not be purchasing any Red Wing tickets or memorabilia so long as this partnership goes on, and I'm firmly committed to that. I will continue to bring up any points of contact worth writing to or calling.

But again, please, be respectful! We as fans and oftentimes paying customers have a strong voice, but let's use it in a manner that reflects well on us.

Anyways...

Richard Bowness, PR Coordinator (313) 396-7518, office (313) 405-6929, cell

http://www.clickonde...01/29049381.pdf
-Elliot...does not panic.

#94 Red Wings Addict

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Posted 08 September 2011 - 08:46 PM

In reading the press release, the contact info for the Red Wings PR Coordinator, Richard Bowness, was listed. Probably a good place to start if you feel lead to express your disappointment in this partnership. I would encourage everyone to respectfully state your position if you do call. And to be clear, I do encourage anyone and everyone who disapproves of this partnership to call in and protest this.

I plan on letting them know that I will not be purchasing any Red Wing tickets or memorabilia so long as this partnership goes on, and I'm firmly committed to that. I will continue to bring up any points of contact worth writing to or calling.

But again, please, be respectful! We as fans and oftentimes paying customers have a strong voice, but let's use it in a manner that reflects well on us.

Anyways...

Richard Bowness, PR Coordinator (313) 396-7518, office (313) 405-6929, cell

http://www.clickonde...01/29049381.pdf


:thumbup:

#95 cprice12

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 05:36 PM

The Red Wings being sponsored/presented by a company is one thing. But slapping that stupid logo right next to the Wings logo whenever it is used in advertising and marketing purposes, is beyond stupid.

I would hope the Blues NEVER do anything this stupid. It wreaks of corporate greed and selling out. They have essentially defaced the Red Wings logo.

And then add to that, that Amway is a questionable company in terms of shady business practices that border on being illegal...well...yeah. Even worse.

Pretty shameful if you ask me. :thumbdown:

Edited by cprice12, 09 September 2011 - 05:37 PM.


#96 WingedWheeler1319

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 10:17 AM

Hi All-

Good luck to the Wings this year. I'm thinking a Cup final victory over the Caps with Pavel picking up the Conn Symthe.

I have to say, the amway thing makes me uncomfortable. While today it's just marketing, I worry that tomorrow it will be the jerseys, etc.

So, check out this Facebook Page:

https://www.facebook...38480?sk=photos

Like it, and we'll at least let the Illitch family know that in addition to being their and their sponsors team, the Wings are our team to.

B

#97 Majsheppard

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Posted 07 October 2011 - 10:23 AM

they had them on practice jerseys last year.



I don't get why they would even want it on the practice jersey... Who even ever sees it? Are they trying to trick the players into getting into the pyramid scheme?
"It is a lot easier to be an ******* to words than to people"-xkcd

Tootoo does NOT belong on this team. He is classless and I would rather see the Wings be bad than classless. I feel the same way about Bertuzzi as well, but he at least CAN make the team better. With Tootoo the team becomes worse and in danger of being classless. Would you have liked Claude on the team? Or Roy? No. So why would you be okay with that POS.

This thread has been closed due to emotions being higher than people's ability to read, interpret, and properly respond to simple posts.





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