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#41 Doc Holliday

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Posted 03 October 2011 - 07:08 PM

The NHL is not a joke for having people who dive, that's correct, but it was not my assertion that the league is a joke just because people dive. They are joke because of how they handle diving.


How does Soccer, Baseball, or the NBA handle diving?

It's honestly not something that only has to do with the NHL. Due to the gray area with "intent", most leagues don't lay the hammer down on dives and embellishments.

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#42 F.Michael

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Posted 03 October 2011 - 07:12 PM

What ever became of the NHL that I "grew up" with?

Back then it was embarassing to do what we see in todays game - embellishment...There was a time when you "took a number" of the opposition...Todays NHL it's all about looking over at the refs, and plead your case as though he were a wide receiver in the NFL.

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#43 jollymania

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Posted 03 October 2011 - 07:15 PM

Yep, being a big player who dominates other teams demands that those teams have guys who hit you in the head. Completely warranted.



Richter's career was ended by two major consussions in eight months. One was a shot to the mask, and the second was a knee to the head.



It? These guys didn't have their careers ended by one concussion. And BTW- getting punched in the face is less impact than a headshot.




Courtnall was not a "big hitter" he was a speedy scoring winger. He played 30 games in his final two seasons; he went out after 24 games in 1998-99 with a concussion, and returned the following fall. Six games in he received a concussion, and was forced to retire.

Stevens was a big hitter, but he also took big hits. He retired due to PCS, and he didn't get those concussions from hitting people.




It's believed that Boogaard's death occurred because he was not of sound mind due to the numerous concussions he has received.



So was Semin.



You're right. The fact that Crosby was injured when someone accidentally hit his head means trying to hit the head should definitely not be punished or considered intent to injure. I bet you think Todd Bertuzzi should carry no responsibility for the Steve Moore incident, also.


well your comments are moot, especially the one about lindros which clearly illustrates you don't know the reason for lindros's issues, because they still don't show that legal head hits were the key to the concussions, rather other things (besides lindros who it was legal head hits but they were legitimized by his playing style).

courtnall:


about the punches not being as bad as shoulders then why are we discussing barnaby, deadmarsh, and especially boogaard because he never got a head shot.

Stevens never got laid out with a fair shoulder check to the head, simply did not happen, yeah he was checked but not legal shots to the head. He also got beamed in the head with a puck.

And bertuzzis incident was not the same as the crosby one what a horrible comparison.

oh and semin was basically not even touched, quit it with that bs argument

How does Soccer, Baseball, or the NBA handle diving?

It's honestly not something that only has to do with the NHL. Due to the gray area with "intent", most leagues don't lay the hammer down on dives and embellishments.

very poorly, and in a physical honor-based sport like hockey it needs to be policed much more severly

Edited by jollymania, 03 October 2011 - 07:22 PM.

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#44 Shoreline

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Posted 03 October 2011 - 07:27 PM

How does Soccer, Baseball, or the NBA handle diving?

It's honestly not something that only has to do with the NHL. Due to the gray area with "intent", most leagues don't lay the hammer down on dives and embellishments.

Each sport and league has various levels of physicality to them. Why would I compare apples and oranges when we're just talking hockey and the NHL? That's a rather pointless and illogical debate that would lead nowhere in respect to how the NHL handles diving.

By your logic the league shouldn't have even bothered calling obstruction because of what you describe as a "gray area" of "intent". This gray area is not very gray. Accidental obstruction is okay, it's coincidental. Purposeful obstruction is penalized. Calls on accidental obstruction seemed not to have changed, they don't get called, but purposeful obstruction, the league has changed how it calls it, and the fact that obstruction was rampant and negatively affected the league prompted changes. One can visibly see when a person goes out of their way to obstruct someone, hence the sensitivity to sticks on the body of a person chasing the puck, as well as purposeful physical contact to divert someone chasing a puck. Likewise, they can visibly see when a person goes out of their way to embellish a hit. This was a prettyf****** obvious-as-day embellishment of a hit that looks like it might have possibly, worst case scenario, grazed Semin's head -- regardless of how vile it appears for a player to stick his arm out at somebody.

Edited by Shoreline, 03 October 2011 - 07:29 PM.


#45 eva unit zero

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Posted 03 October 2011 - 07:39 PM

well your comments are moot, especially the one about lindros which clearly illustrates you don't know the reason for lindros's issues, because they still don't show that legal head hits were the key to the concussions, rather other things (besides lindros who it was legal head hits but they were legitimized by his playing style).

courtnall:
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=qyDe16KU-hs

about the punches not being as bad as shoulders then why are we discussing barnaby, deadmarsh, and especially boogaard because he never got a head shot.

Stevens never got laid out with a fair shoulder check to the head, simply did not happen, yeah he was checked but not legal shots to the head. He also got beamed in the head with a puck.

And bertuzzis incident was not the same as the crosby one what a horrible comparison.

oh and semin was basically not even touched, quit it with that bs argument


very poorly, and in a physical honor-based sport like hockey it needs to be policed much more severly


You still don't get the reason I brought up any of those names. These are guys whose careers were ruined because they got their brains turned to goo. As for your "legal head hits" go back and take a look at all of the hits Lindros took over the years. I bet you that he took far more shots to the melon than you think.

Geoff Courtnall. Yes, that's a very nice hit on Roenick. But I will say it again, he was not a big hitter. Even the power for that hit right there comes mostly from Roenick's legs, not Courtnall's. He was able to lay that hit because he knew Roenick would be there. Roenick didn't even have a clue about Courtnall because he was too busy shooting. Was Fedorov a big hitter? Is Datsyuk? They lay hits like that. Courtnall was a scorer who had enough hockey IQ to be able to hit a guy if he needed to (like that Roenick vid) but he wasn't Kevin Stevens. Whose career was also shortened drastically due to head injuries.

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#46 Bring Back The Bruise Bros

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Posted 03 October 2011 - 07:49 PM

What ever became of the NHL that I "grew up" with?

Back then it was embarassing to do what we see in todays game - embellishment...There was a time when you "took a number" of the opposition...Todays NHL it's all about looking over at the refs, and plead your case as though he were a wide receiver in the NFL.

{copy/pasted from another thread}

I'm afraid those days are coming to an end, good man. Granted, not all players embellish hits and fake injuries like Semin did the other night, but its not a complete rarity. Weren't they cracking down on diving a few years back? I wish we saw more dives being called for minor penalties.
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#47 Scott Stevens

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Posted 03 October 2011 - 07:56 PM

The NHL builds a new arena or two every year, and they still won't make the ice surface bigger. That's the LARGEST problem in the game today. There's no room out there anymore. They should lengthen the playing surface 20 feet and make it 20 feet wider. Olympic size or bigger. There are no athletes that move faster than NHL players and are allowed to hit each other person to person. The average player height was 5'6" in 1900 and the average speed was approx 15 mph. Now, the average player height is closer to 6'1" and the average speed is 25 mph. What the hell does the NHL think is going to happen? Bigger Rink solves all these problems, but the NHL is too stupid to figure that out.

#48 RedBengals

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Posted 03 October 2011 - 09:34 PM

Why the NHL won't adopt Olympic size ice like other leagues is beyond me. With improvements in conditioning and equipment players need more room.

Back on topic though, its hard to argue diving hasn't become more common. But at the same time, hockey has evolved past grinding to the current more skillful (passing, shooting, stick handling, etc) game. Diving happens in all sports, you try to draw a foul because you gain an advantage. And since hockey is less of a grinder sport now, it's possible to dive because we don't view chippy play as "part of the game" anymore. I think the issue is overblown mostly, I very rarely see flagrant diving. Sure, sometimes a guy gets his ankle hooked and goes down when he may have been able to stay up, but its hardly like soccer. Its part of the game just like fighting, it has its time and place.

No, i'm not saying players should go slide for home every time a player is within five feet. Blatant dives deserve penalties, a player should at least be sly about it. None of that Crosby face-grab, lay there s***.

#49 Hockeytown0001

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Posted 03 October 2011 - 09:47 PM

If players were suspended for diving, San Jose would have to forfeit their next few games.

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#50 Doc Holliday

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Posted 03 October 2011 - 11:52 PM

Each sport and league has various levels of physicality to them. Why would I compare apples and oranges when we're just talking hockey and the NHL? That's a rather pointless and illogical debate that would lead nowhere in respect to how the NHL handles diving.

Because you need to understand the pitfalls that ALL leagues face in regards to something that requires knowledge of intent before saying how the league is a joke. In all honesty it has taken great strides and I don't see the NHL getting the "diving" card that soccer will have for all eternity.

By your logic the league shouldn't have even bothered calling obstruction because of what you describe as a "gray area" of "intent". This gray area is not very gray. Accidental obstruction is okay, it's coincidental. Purposeful obstruction is penalized. Calls on accidental obstruction seemed not to have changed, they don't get called, but purposeful obstruction, the league has changed how it calls it, and the fact that obstruction was rampant and negatively affected the league prompted changes. One can visibly see when a person goes out of their way to obstruct someone, hence the sensitivity to sticks on the body of a person chasing the puck, as well as purposeful physical contact to divert someone chasing a puck. Likewise, they can visibly see when a person goes out of their way to embellish a hit. This was a prettyf****** obvious-as-day embellishment of a hit that looks like it might have possibly, worst case scenario, grazed Semin's head -- regardless of how vile it appears for a player to stick his arm out at somebody.


I can't remember the last time I saw an obstruction call, and you are arguing against something I didn't say anyway. I never said they shouldn't call diving. I'm just saying during a full speed game where the referees make enough mistakes, it is understandable to see why you don't see that many diving calls.

Should Semin have been suspended? Absolutely. But is the league really a joke simply because they have some issues in the sport like all leagues?

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#51 Konnan511

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Posted 04 October 2011 - 12:40 AM

Because you need to understand the pitfalls that ALL leagues face in regards to something that requires knowledge of intent before saying how the league is a joke. In all honesty it has taken great strides and I don't see the NHL getting the "diving" card that soccer will have for all eternity.



I can't remember the last time I saw an obstruction call, and you are arguing against something I didn't say anyway. I never said they shouldn't call diving. I'm just saying during a full speed game where the referees make enough mistakes, it is understandable to see why you don't see that many diving calls.

Should Semin have been suspended? Absolutely. But is the league really a joke simply because they have some issues in the sport like all leagues?


Not to mention refs don't have the luxury of watching replays from multiple angles before making a penalty call. From one angle, it looks like a blatant headshot. The checker threw an elbow and it appeared to make contact. On another angle it just looks like a slight graze that couldn't hurt a fly. Who knows, the ref that made the call could have been at and anglke which describes the former and not the latter.

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#52 cusimano_brothers

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 01:53 PM

I think I heard this correctly earlier this week; please feel free to sue me if it's incorrect.

As "flopping" is in season now more than ever, the NBA is considering the following: the owness will be placed directly on the shoulders of the referees. If obvious cases are not called, the Association will begin to fine the referees for "not doing their job".

The NBA might either want to rethink this proposal or wait until negotiations for a new contract with the referees. 


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#53 hockeysattva

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 10:24 AM

I realize you've pulled up an old thread for a new post, and might suggest you just start a new thread...

 

I think Basketball is a different can of worms, but it is thought provoking none-the-less. I disagree with the idea of fining refs. either you trust they are doing their jobs to the best of their abilities, or you find someone else. Refs aren't paid enough to be fined anyway, at least not in our league.

 

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#54 Rhah

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 12:11 PM

I guess since this happened I have seen at least one dive called unsportsmanlike, however, even though he got called for embellishment, the first guy still got a penalty. So, where is the disadvantage to the guy diving? None. He either gets matching minors or a PP. Win/win. If a guy gets called for embellishment it should be a no-brainer logic that only one guy goes to the box and its not the person who initiated the check.

 

Can't ever count on the NHL league office or refs to be logical though.

 

PS - I don't mind the thread necro if the topic is still relevant.



#55 amato

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 01:06 PM

lol really semin? 

 

elbow/forearm hits him in the chest/shoulder and semin jumps after contact.... also, the left side of his body gets hit and somehow he spins right.

 

 

then stays down to make sure the hawks get penalized as much as possible before getting up completely fine and on his own. and he's out the very next shift. ridiculous. 


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#56 stallion

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 02:21 PM

I think I heard this correctly earlier this week; please feel free to sue me if it's incorrect.

As "flopping" is in season now more than ever, the NBA is considering the following: the owness will be placed directly on the shoulders of the referees. If obvious cases are not called, the Association will begin to fine the referees for "not doing their job".

The NBA might either want to rethink this proposal or wait until negotiations for a new contract with the referees. 

Dude. I'm all for imperfect spelling and grammar on the internets, but this one hurt me right in the feels. Yowza.

 

It's spelled ONUS. A letter away from ANUS, which is what I'm being with this post.



#57 SidAbelsSon

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 07:50 PM

Start making the calls for diving a double minor. That way the penalties do not offset if a player is stupid enough to dive. Just gotta get the Refs to call them though.



#58 Resetti

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 11:10 AM

While putting the onus on the referee may work in basketball to minimize flopping, hockey is just too fast of a sport.  There's so much going on as it is that you can't add to that "judging acting skills" to the job requirement.  The way to legislate diving out of the sport is to have supplemental discipline in the form of heavy-handed suspensions against players diving.  It isn't worth diving to get one power play in a game if it means you sit the next 5 or so games.

 

It has to be heavy punishment in order to make it clear to players that it's not worth the gamble.  Give refs the power to call just dives, if there's an obvious one, but the league office has to take care of this in order to clean up the game.  The refs already have enough to worry about.



#59 RyanBarnes!

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 01:38 PM

The NHL should be able to review dives and suspend after the fact, just like they do with hits. Dive equals one game suspension and repeat offenders get three games automatically.
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