Hudler?

[Scott Stevens 44]

Sweet mother of mercy, you need to get a grip on reality. Franzen scored at or above PPG in three consecutive playoff years (2008-2010), and then didn't last year when he was hurt. I guess for the whole one and a half games before he was injured he "played like s***," and even then he still managed a goal and assist.

This is closer to reality. He hasn't been all that dominant against the Sharks. I guess that's why I'm a little sour on Franzen right now. He lights it up against the Coyotes and for one meaningless game against the Sharks, but he's been invisible all the other games against the Sharks. We need Franzen to be the 08-09 playoff Franzen when we play the Sharks. Not the 2010-2011 playoff Franzen.

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

This is closer to reality. He hasn't been all that dominant against the Sharks. I guess that's why I'm a little sour on Franzen right now. He lights it up against the Coyotes and for one meaningless game against the Sharks, but he's been invisible all the other games against the Sharks. We need Franzen to be the 08-09 playoff Franzen when we play the Sharks. Not the 2010-2011 playoff Franzen.

Outside of FranzenFest '10, he had 1G 4A in the remaining four games against the Sharks. In fact, he recorded a point in every single playoff game that year. He was not effective last year, and surprise, he was hurt.

I agree that not all of Franzen's qualities are endearing, that he is sometimes lazy or disinterested, but eva is persecuting him relentlessly for one poor 30 game stretch in his career; it's absurd. The man has proven his worth time and time again.

[Scott Stevens 44]

Outside of FranzenFest '10, he had 1G 4A in the remaining four games against the Sharks. In fact, he recorded a point in every single playoff game that year. He was not effective last year, and surprise, he was hurt.

I agree that not all of Franzen's qualities are endearing, that he is sometimes lazy or disinterested, but eva is persecuting him relentlessly for one poor 30 game stretch in his career; it's absurd. The man has proven his worth time and time again.

Agreed. The Mule has been pretty solid with the exception of a couple swings over the years.

[eva unit zero 271]

Franzen works hard. Come on. He might have had a bad stretch of games, but come on. Look at his production the last 5 seasons. He's been solid. I'm only agreeing with you that Hudler can put up points with Dats or Zetterberg centering his line. I'm not agreeing with you on Franzen's motivation or work ethic.

Hmm, you're right.

Over the past five seasons, Franzen has averaged 53 points every 82 games. Hudler has averaged 42 points every 82 games. Before last season it was Franzen with 51 and Hudler with 43.

So both players have been quite solid over the past five seasons. Last year, each had a pretty terrible slump that lasted around 30 games.

But one is considered an elite sniper and one is considered easily replaceable by LGW posters.

[eva unit zero 271]

Outside of FranzenFest '10, he had 1G 4A in the remaining four games against the Sharks. In fact, he recorded a point in every single playoff game that year. He was not effective last year, and surprise, he was hurt.

I agree that not all of Franzen's qualities are endearing, that he is sometimes lazy or disinterested, but eva is persecuting him relentlessly for one poor 30 game stretch in his career; it's absurd. The man has proven his worth time and time again.

Nah, it would be much worse if I were relentless. I would be known as Franzen's biggest hater instead of Hudler's biggest fan.

[Guest Crymson]

Eva,

Another thing to remember is that Franzen had 2 huge games over the last 2 playoff seasons. He was epic in 08 and 09. I will give that to Franzen. He was a beast and a large part of our cup/finals success. But 10 and 11 were MISERABLE for Franzen, outside of a couple games. He has been invisible for the most part over the last 2 years in the playoffs.

2010 was NOT a miserable playoff year for Franzen. His huge game placed him at #1 overall in NHL playoff scoring for a bit, because he was averaging a point per game for the ten games before that; he ended with 18 points in 12 games. Will you please stop making statements that have absolutely no basis in reality?

2011 was not MISERABLE either. Franzen was doing well before he got injured.

I'm not trying to turn this into a hate on Franzen topic, but I am going to call it like I see it. Fedorov was a consistent playoff performer for the Red Wings. He was never hurt and never disappeared. Franzen = hurt and disappears the last 2 years.

LOL. I think it's more like you're going to call it in such a way that makes it obvious you have no idea what you're talking about.

Edited October 14, 2011 by Crymson

[eva unit zero 271]

2011 was not MISERABLE either. Franzen was doing well before he got injured.

Franzen's lazy play was the direct cause of a key goal against and was responsible for several other significant scoring chances in that 1 1/2 games. If anything, he was a nonfactor if not a negative factor for the Wings in the time before he got hurt.

Going back a couple of years, he used to play well defensively. When he first started in the league he was a defensive specialist, and was very effective at it. It was probably around halfway into the 2008-09 season that his defense really started to disappear. It wasn't just lazy backchecking, but his general mode on the ice turned from a hard working forward with a good shot to a lazy forward with a good shot.

Franzen is capable of being much better; if he worked as hard as he did in his first three years, he could probably score 40 goals and 70 points while playing strong defense.

[Guest Crymson]

Franzen's lazy play was the direct cause of a key goal against and was responsible for several other significant scoring chances in that 1 1/2 games. If anything, he was a nonfactor if not a negative factor for the Wings in the time before he got hurt.

Going back a couple of years, he used to play well defensively. When he first started in the league he was a defensive specialist, and was very effective at it. It was probably around halfway into the 2008-09 season that his defense really started to disappear. It wasn't just lazy backchecking, but his general mode on the ice turned from a hard working forward with a good shot to a lazy forward with a good shot.

Franzen is capable of being much better; if he worked as hard as he did in his first three years, he could probably score 40 goals and 70 points while playing strong defense.

As far as I'm concerned, eva, you more or less lose touch with reality when it comes to Hudler threads.

[Red Wings Addict 787]

To him, that is reality and he doesn't know any other way.

[Scott Stevens 44]

Crymson,

We needed Franzen to be there and pick up his game to get us over the hump the last two seasons when playing the Sharks. He no-showed for the most part. That's all I'm saying. Overall, Franzen has been great. I like the Mule. I just think Hudler's numbers would be similar if he had similar ice time and line-mates. Hudler is a gifted hockey player. Trying to deny that is just silly.

[Scott Stevens 44]

Hmm, you're right.

Over the past five seasons, Franzen has averaged 53 points every 82 games. Hudler has averaged 42 points every 82 games. Before last season it was Franzen with 51 and Hudler with 43.

So both players have been quite solid over the past five seasons. Last year, each had a pretty terrible slump that lasted around 30 games.

But one is considered an elite sniper and one is considered easily replaceable by LGW posters.

And THIS is where I'm in total agreement with you! Franzen is NOT Mario Lemieux.

Franzen plays with this Zetterberg and Cleary and sees about 4 minutes more ice time per game.

Hudler plays with Filppula and Abdelkader.

Noone should have any problems making a connection as to why Hudler has lower point production than Franzen.

Is Hudler better than Franzen? I don't think so. I'm not questioning Hudler or Franzen's placement on the depth chart. I'm questioning the LGW posters' ability to recognize the probable/acceptable point production that should come out of someone's placement on the depth chart.

Hudler putting up 40-50 points on the third line is WHAT HE SHOULD DO!!!

[Nevermind 363]

I just think Hudler's numbers would be similar if he had similar ice time and line-mates. Hudler is a gifted hockey player.

Franzen's playoff numbers before last season:

07-08: 13 goals and 5 assists for 18 points in 16 games played. Plus 13.

08-09: 12 goals and 11 assists for 23 points in 23 games played. Plus 8.

09-10: 6 goals and 12 assists for 18 points in 12 games played. Plus 8.

Now please tell me again that Hudler could put up these numbers or better in the playoffs.

[Scott Stevens 44]

Franzen's playoff numbers before last season:

07-08: 13 goals and 5 assists for 18 points in 16 games played. Plus 13.

08-09: 12 goals and 11 assists for 23 points in 23 games played. Plus 8.

09-10: 6 goals and 12 assists for 18 points in 12 games played. Plus 8.

Now please tell me again that Hudler could put up these numbers or better in the playoffs.

Not on the third line, he couldn't. Nobody could on the third line.

Are you just going to totally IGNORE ice-time and line-mates as a factor in point production?

Let's take a look at the 08 and 09 playoffs since both players are in those seasons.

08:

Franzen, 18 points in 16 games with 18:49 average ice time and 1st line players = .06 points per minute.

Hudler, 14 points in 22 games with 11:35 average ice time and 3rd line players = .055 points per minute.

09:

Franzen, 23 points in 23 games with 19:40 average ice time and 1st line players = .050 points per minute.

Hudler, 12 points in 23 games with 13:27 average ice time and 3rd line players = .039 points per minute.

I really do believe that if Hudler had been playing with Zetterberg and Franzen had been playing with Filppula during those playoff runs, Hudler's numbers would be better than Franzen's. However, I also believe we wouldn't have won in 08 if that were true. Hudler is not better than Franzen. That's not my argument. Hudler is a good third liner and everybody should realize this. That's my argument.

[Guest Crymson]

Crymson,

We needed Franzen to be there and pick up his game to get us over the hump the last two seasons when playing the Sharks. He no-showed for the most part.

That's all I'm saying.

No, what you're doing is trying to cover for the fact that you made a statement utterly lacking in substance. And you're just making yourself look sillier in doing so, given that Franzen played great against the Sharks in 2010; nobody in his or her right mind could refer to his performance as "no-showing," given his production and given that he virtually won an entire game by himself (and LOL @ you calling any playoff game a "meaningless game"). He didn't no-show in 2011 either, given that it's nearly impossible to effectively play hockey on a busted ankle.

[Z and D for the C 712]

Franzen isn't lazy!

Yes, he is. If Franzen isn't scoring goals, he isn't doing anything.

[Scott Stevens 44]

No, what you're doing is trying to cover for the fact that you made a statement utterly lacking in substance. And you're just making yourself look sillier in doing so, given that Franzen played great against the Sharks in 2010; nobody in his or her right mind could refer to his performance as "no-showing," given his production and given that he virtually won an entire game by himself (and LOL @ you calling any playoff game a "meaningless game"). He didn't no-show in 2011 either, given that it's nearly impossible to effectively play hockey on a busted ankle.

So you're saying he's injury prone? What good does that do us? FACE IT - Franzen isn't helping us beat the Sharks. And we need someone who can.

[Guest Crymson]

So you're saying he's injury prone? What good does that do us? FACE IT - Franzen isn't helping us beat the Sharks. And we need someone who can.

He was injured for one playoff season. I guess Zetterberg being injured in the 2007 playoffs meant he sucks in your eyes, huh? Or maybe Datsyuk in 2009, eh?

You're trying too hard, and it's for a bad cause. Just admit that you made a baseless claim and let's be done with it.

[Scott Stevens 44]

He was injured for one playoff season. I guess Zetterberg being injured in the 2007 playoffs meant he sucks in your eyes, huh? Or maybe Datsyuk in 2009, eh?

You're trying too hard, and it's for a bad cause. Just admit that you made a baseless claim and let's be done with it.

Crysmon,

You're gripping because you know we need a big body on that top line with Z, and if Franzen can't provide that, then we really don't have much hope in the playoffs. Just take a deep breath and rethink this one. You'll see that the point I'm trying to make is that Franzen is key to our success and has to show up.

[pockets 9]

Franzen suffers from laziness. With that said WHEN Franzen WANTS he can open up the ice just fine. And in the end it might not even be laziness but at times it seems that hes just trying to skate thru a game(pun intended) and just relying on our good centers to make things happen for him instead of working himself

[Guest Crymson]

Crysmon,

You're gripping because you know we need a big body on that top line with Z, and if Franzen can't provide that, then we really don't have much hope in the playoffs.

Uhhh.... what?

Just take a deep breath and rethink this one. You'll see that the point I'm trying to make is that Franzen is key to our success and has to show up.

That point makes no sense. He "showed up" in a huge way in 2008, 2009, and 2010, and all that prevented a repeat least season was an injury to his ankle.

[Aussie_Wing 354]

Franzen suffers from laziness. With that said WHEN Franzen WANTS he can open up the ice just fine. And in the end it might not even be laziness but at times it seems that hes just trying to skate thru a game(pun intended) and just relying on our good centers to make things happen for him instead of working himself

Agree 100% with this. I know it’s the case with virtually every scoring winger in the NHL, but I think Franzen more often than others, needs great centers to be effective, without them he seems to float around doing very little. He seems to be over reliant on Hank and Flip ect feeding him perfect plays. He’s a dominant force when he’s on and when he wants to be, but what’s stopping him from being truly elite is his work ethic, if he brought it every single night he’s be almost unstoppable.

[Scott Stevens 44]

Franzen suffers from laziness. With that said WHEN Franzen WANTS he can open up the ice just fine. And in the end it might not even be laziness but at times it seems that hes just trying to skate thru a game(pun intended) and just relying on our good centers to make things happen for him instead of working himself

I'm glad someone realizes that a winger can only be so good depending on the center he has to play with. I think a lot of people on here wouldn't know why Jari Kurri ended up with 600 goals and Willy Lindstrom did not.

[Scott Stevens 44]

Uhhh.... what?

That point makes no sense. He "showed up" in a huge way in 2008, 2009, and 2010, and all that prevented a repeat least season was an injury to his ankle.

Crysmon,

The people in the other Hudler thread are saying Franzen is a floater. Do you agree with that?

[Guest Crymson]

Crysmon,

The people in the other Hudler thread are saying Franzen is a floater. Do you agree with that?

Your attempt to change the subject here is very transparent.

[Scott Stevens 44]

Your attempt to change the subject here is very transparent.

We already discussed his no-show the last 2 years against the Sharks. What else do you want me to rehash?