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Report: Pre-season Fighting Lowest in More Than a Decade


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#21 WorkingOvertime

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 06:26 PM

Enforcers seems to have an affinity for these lifestyles more than other hockey players.



http://www.csnphilly...6996&feedID=704

There's no causation in that argument. IMO it is more believable that people with those tendencies are more likely to fight, instead of fighting leading to those tendencies.

#22 newfy

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 06:27 PM

Enforcers seems to have an affinity for these lifestyles more than other hockey players.



http://www.csnphilly...6996&feedID=704

Yeah to grow up playing a style of game like that youve probably got s*** going on in your life that messeswith you a bit. Theo Fleury is an example of a rough player who had demons that he took out on people on the ice.

For all you know fighting helps keep these guys stable by getting out some of their problems.

Probie was drinking 12 beers a night by 17, and thats before he took much head trauma from fighting... So how did fighting cause that?

RIP BOB PROBERT #24


#23 Hockey Convert

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 07:23 PM

Probie was drinking 12 beers a night by 17, and thats before he took much head trauma from fighting... So how did fighting cause that?


Fighting in hockey causes tooth decay, male pattern baldness, global warming, and communism. True story.

Oh, also, on LGW correlation always equals causation. Where there's smoke, there's fire, and certainly not a couple anti-fire posters holding a smoke machine!

#24 Konnan511

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 08:17 PM

Fighting in hockey causes tooth decay, male pattern baldness, global warming, and communism. True story.

Oh, also, on LGW correlation always equals causation. Where there's smoke, there's fire, and certainly not a couple anti-fire posters holding a smoke machine!

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#25 Bring Back The Bruise Bros

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 08:56 PM

Fighting in hockey causes tooth decay, male pattern baldness, global warming, and communism. True story.

Oh, also, on LGW correlation always equals causation. Where there's smoke, there's fire, and certainly not a couple anti-fire posters holding a smoke machine!

You failed to mention that it causes arson, public executions, gun control, and animal abuse, as well. Seems players are finally realizing the consequences of these silly punch in the face contests.

Edited by Bring Back The Bruise Bros, 09 October 2011 - 08:57 PM.

"Ice hockey is a form of disorderly conduct in which the score is kept."

RIP Bob Probert
RIP Wade Belak
RIP Derek Boogaard
RIP Rick Rypien

#26 barabbas16

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 06:17 PM

I mean, are you serious? You do know that hockey has seen fighting since the birth of its existence, right? It IS the game. Besides, whether there is fighting or not, there will always be 20 minutes of game time where the puck is in play so you don't have to worry.

You know that fighting has nothing to do with these players deaths, right? I mean, you know that fighting has existed in hockey for more than 5 years ago and that there haven't been any issues like this before? But then maybe you'll site Proberts premature death. But then i'll just retort with his destructive life style and cocain addiction - so don't bother.


No. It isn't. The '20 minutes of game time where the puck is in play' (per period) is the game.

And yes, we all realize that fighting has been around in hockey for a long time. That's why I have to hear my dad give me the old 'I went to a fight and a hockey game broke out' joke every time I bring the game up. Fighting is fewer and farther between than it used to be, and while I do not think that fighting should be disposed of from hockey or anything like that.... but I do think that the changes we've seen as far as fighting goes is for the better.

I enjoy a good fight when it IS part of the game. I enjoyed the Wings in the 90s as much as anyone else. I loved Shanahan and McCarty, but they were hockey players who could fight. I do not like players who fight just to fight for no real reason and that is basically their sole purpose - guys who wouldn't be playing otherwise.... fighters who play hockey. If you seriously think fighting IS the game - go watch UFC or something.

#27 13dangledangle

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 08:08 PM

I think the league in my honest opinion could do without the quote on quote "enforcer" style of fights where you know Shelly is fighting Perros tonight. I like those fights don't get me wrong, but those dudes over a long period of time do a lot of damage to themselfs both mentally and physically. The fights that are great are the passion fights, as long as we can somehow keep those intact we should be ok.

Edited by 13dangledangle, 10 October 2011 - 08:15 PM.

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#28 Bring Back The Bruise Bros

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 08:18 PM

I think the league in my honest opinion could do without the quote on quote "enforcer" style of fights where you know Shelly is fighting Perros tonight. I like those fights none the less, but those dudes over a long period of time do a lot of damage to themselfs both mentally and physicaly. The fights that are great are the passion fights, as long as we can somehow keep those intact we should be ok.

The thing is, what defines a "staged fight"? Many people have differing definitions of this. Personally, I don't think the NHL can't be like "Oh, no you can't fight off a draw" but say "Feel free to scrap after a hit, because that shows emotional ties to the game". I feel either ban it completely, or leave it as it is. Ban it completely, though, and watch the game become a spineless cheapshot frenzy.
"Ice hockey is a form of disorderly conduct in which the score is kept."

RIP Bob Probert
RIP Wade Belak
RIP Derek Boogaard
RIP Rick Rypien

#29 martyrme19

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 08:56 PM

I don't know, I just don't think it's a huge coincidence that we lost 3 young hockey players in a couple months, and they all had a similar role and shared a certain play style.


Bro, Thats EXACTLY what it is. If these patterns have been going on for 70 years, THEN it wouldn't be a coincidence.

Enforcers seems to have an affinity for these lifestyles more than other hockey players.



People have already correctly responded to this, but just in case - the fighting itself does not cause their lifestyles. It is more than likely these players lifestyles that have led them to be successful fighters.

C'MON MAN!!!

No. It isn't. The '20 minutes of game time where the puck is in play' (per period) is the game.

And yes, we all realize that fighting has been around in hockey for a long time. That's why I have to hear my dad give me the old 'I went to a fight and a hockey game broke out' joke every time I bring the game up. Fighting is fewer and farther between than it used to be, and while I do not think that fighting should be disposed of from hockey or anything like that.... but I do think that the changes we've seen as far as fighting goes is for the better.

I enjoy a good fight when it IS part of the game. I enjoyed the Wings in the 90s as much as anyone else. I loved Shanahan and McCarty, but they were hockey players who could fight. I do not like players who fight just to fight for no real reason and that is basically their sole purpose - guys who wouldn't be playing otherwise.... fighters who play hockey. If you seriously think fighting IS the game - go watch UFC or something.


Yes it is. First I can argue how it intangibally affects the game. You know exactly what I would say, so I won't waste my time. You would just argue it and not listen anways. So....

Its part of the rule book and in such a way to be incorporated in the game. So ya, you're dead wrong. No questions.

Edited by martyrme19, 10 October 2011 - 08:56 PM.

Just for the record, the weather today is slightly sarcastic with a good chance of rain.

#30 Hell Toupee

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 09:34 PM

Man, I never realized there were that many neuro-surgeons and psychologists in here.

That's absolutely amazing!

Opinions and assholes, and the other way around.
Are you really filled with that much belief in yourselves, that you think your uneducated guess bears any weight? Really?
Not one of us knows what caused what effect, or if the effect is the cause, so maybe we should stop with the wild guessing-games?

Sometime we might have a clear-cut answer as to what led to these untimely deaths, but it sure as hell won't spring from
a thread on a message board.

Really, you and I know nothing of what the cause is. So what's the argument?
It's all guesses, from people with little to no insight.
It's dumb.

None of us KNOW s*** about it.

Leave it to those who actually know what to look for, and know how to interpret the facts.

You know, doctors, professors, etc.

You know, the people with all of the tools none of us have... You know, EXPERTS.
With Machines and s***!



Sweet Jesus on his Tyranosaurus.
You know nothing. As do I.

Calm down.
At least stop arguing a point for which you have NO proof.

#31 martyrme19

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 10:10 PM

Man, I never realized there were that many neuro-surgeons and psychologists in here.

That's absolutely amazing!

Opinions and assholes, and the other way around.
Are you really filled with that much belief in yourselves, that you think your uneducated guess bears any weight? Really?
Not one of us knows what caused what effect, or if the effect is the cause, so maybe we should stop with the wild guessing-games?

Sometime we might have a clear-cut answer as to what led to these untimely deaths, but it sure as hell won't spring from
a thread on a message board.

Really, you and I know nothing of what the cause is. So what's the argument?
It's all guesses, from people with little to no insight.
It's dumb.

None of us KNOW s*** about it.

Leave it to those who actually know what to look for, and know how to interpret the facts.

You know, doctors, professors, etc.

You know, the people with all of the tools none of us have... You know, EXPERTS.
With Machines and s***!



Sweet Jesus on his Tyranosaurus.
You know nothing. As do I.

Calm down.
At least stop arguing a point for which you have NO proof.


I firmly believe what I have to say is right. I'm basing what I have to say on proof that is available to the general public.
The EXPERTS (The Hennepin County (Minn.) Medical Examiner's office)listed Boogard's cause of death as a mixture of alcohol and oxycodone toxicity.

The EXPERTS (News1130 in Vancouver) listed Rypiens death as a suicide. Another expert, James Mirtle of the Mail and Globe reported Rypien suffered from depression and missed most of last season because of a leave of absence citing, "personal reasons".

Another EXPERT, Lionel Aadland (Belaks fricken father and former police officer) reports that his son took his own life.

And Just so I cover ALL OF MY BASES.

EXPERTS* reported the death of the players occuring in the KHL plane crash also had nothing to do with fighting. It was caused by the plane falling out of the sky.

*experts in this statement include but are not exclusive tof****** gravity*


Also, I hate using this as a statement but it does merit some weight in this argument - I often feel like I am one of the only few on these boards who have played pro hockey. As a player who has led a team in both scoring and fighting majors, I feel like I know the culture of fights in a hockey game from the perspective of a fighter and a player who is protected by its fighters. I have also had many many many sessions with professionally trained medical staffers and I would like to think that the knowledge they have bestowed upon me could also be categorized as an expert opinion.

Also - many of these arguments have no need for input from experts whatsoever. They simply require basic logical analyses and common sense. Cause and effect is a skill I have been honing since pre-school.

Edited by martyrme19, 10 October 2011 - 10:11 PM.

Just for the record, the weather today is slightly sarcastic with a good chance of rain.

#32 13dangledangle

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 08:31 AM

The thing is, what defines a "staged fight"? Many people have differing definitions of this. Personally, I don't think the NHL can't be like "Oh, no you can't fight off a draw" but say "Feel free to scrap after a hit, because that shows emotional ties to the game". I feel either ban it completely, or leave it as it is. Ban it completely, though, and watch the game become a spineless cheapshot frenzy.



I'm just refering to comments made from the fighters themselfs stressing knowing they more then likely have to fight "Parros" tonite. This is the "staged" part of it to me that doesn't have to be there. I guess the only way we can have our cake and eat it to instate all new fighting rules/regulations and review fights just like hits and the head-Shanny-decides?? Seems like this game is getting very complicated :huh:. I just don't want to see that part of the game completely gone, altered ok, gone no.
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#33 barabbas16

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 11:11 AM

Bro, Thats EXACTLY what it is. If these patterns have been going on for 70 years, THEN it wouldn't be a coincidence.



People have already correctly responded to this, but just in case - the fighting itself does not cause their lifestyles. It is more than likely these players lifestyles that have led them to be successful fighters.

C'MON MAN!!!



Yes it is. First I can argue how it intangibally affects the game. You know exactly what I would say, so I won't waste my time. You would just argue it and not listen anways. So....

Its part of the rule book and in such a way to be incorporated in the game. So ya, you're dead wrong. No questions.


I do not disagree with the aforementioned argument that it intangibly affects the game. Obviously, it does do that. Yes, it is a part of the game and I feel that this is well incorporated in my previous post. There are also many other parts of the game that one could easily argue are bigger parts... skating, passing, shooting, hitting, defence, goaltending... or others more along the lines of fighting - roughing, cross-checking, or even face washes, etc.

My issue, which I feel was stated clearly, was with your statement that fighting "is the game." That was a false and ridiculously eggagerated statement. I find it humorous how hypocritical it is of you to accuse me of not listening.... and to say that I am dead wrong.

You love fighting in hockey and think that it is a quintessential part of the game. I enjoy fighting in certain circumstances and feel that it adds to the game in those circumstances, but there are also times when I feel that it takes away from the game. I think that is a correct assessment of our disagreement.... but fighting isn't hockey. That's just a ridiculous thing to say. You are overstating its importance by a long shot, in my opinion.

#34 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 11:27 AM

http://bleacherrepor...fighting-in-nhl

A pretty good viewpoint on the issue, I thought I'd share. I'm not saying the death's aren't tragic but blaming it on fighting is a bit much.

I'm in favor of keeping fighting in the game, but that's a pretty terrible article. He says tying it to fighting is a ridiculous claim, but makes few sensible points backing it up.

I don't think anyone is saying that everyone who fights is likely to suffer depression and develop a drug dependency and kill themselves. But I also don't buy that a history of concussions and the added stress of being a marginal player in the league weren't a factor.

And those are something it likely has in common with boxing and MMA. You just rarely hear about marginal fighters or the guys who didn't make it.

And to claim Boogaard, Rypien and Belak didn't have to fight is ridiculous. Yes they did, if they wanted to stay in the NHL. Boogaard especially had nothing else to offer to an NHL team.

#35 martyrme19

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 10:20 PM

I do not disagree with the aforementioned argument that it intangibly affects the game. Obviously, it does do that. Yes, it is a part of the game and I feel that this is well incorporated in my previous post. There are also many other parts of the game that one could easily argue are bigger parts... skating, passing, shooting, hitting, defence, goaltending... or others more along the lines of fighting - roughing, cross-checking, or even face washes, etc.

My issue, which I feel was stated clearly, was with your statement that fighting "is the game." That was a false and ridiculously eggagerated statement. I find it humorous how hypocritical it is of you to accuse me of not listening.... and to say that I am dead wrong.

You love fighting in hockey and think that it is a quintessential part of the game. I enjoy fighting in certain circumstances and feel that it adds to the game in those circumstances, but there are also times when I feel that it takes away from the game. I think that is a correct assessment of our disagreement.... but fighting isn't hockey. That's just a ridiculous thing to say. You are overstating its importance by a long shot, in my opinion.





When I say something IS the game - I mean it. Its part of hockey and its heritage. You'll retort to something like how in peewees they dont have fighting and that's still hockey. But you would be wrong - because 1, nobody watches peewee hockey except parents, and 2, there is a natural progression of education in terms of physical contact. Otherwise, mites would be allowed to check right off the bat.

For you to devalue the fighting aspect that the sport has carried since its inauguration is equivalent to you saying - well they dont NEED to play on ice!
I mean, as you said, you take out shooting - and it isnt hockey.
take out passing - and it isnt hockey.
take out defence - and it isnt hockey.
take out goaltending - and it isnt hockey.
take out the sheet of ice - and it isnt hockey.

So any one of those aspects is correctly argued that it IS the game, because without it, the sport is something different. So take the ice out too buddy, since you don't seem to bother changing whatever the hell you damn well please.

Or better yet, since you obviously dont care for the fighting, youll obviously get over it if there is no ice - do us all a favor, go watch roller hockey and leave my sport the f*** alone.
Just for the record, the weather today is slightly sarcastic with a good chance of rain.

#36 barabbas16

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 07:51 AM

When I say something IS the game - I mean it. Its part of hockey and its heritage. You'll retort to something like how in peewees they dont have fighting and that's still hockey. But you would be wrong - because 1, nobody watches peewee hockey except parents, and 2, there is a natural progression of education in terms of physical contact. Otherwise, mites would be allowed to check right off the bat.

For you to devalue the fighting aspect that the sport has carried since its inauguration is equivalent to you saying - well they dont NEED to play on ice!
I mean, as you said, you take out shooting - and it isnt hockey.
take out passing - and it isnt hockey.
take out defence - and it isnt hockey.
take out goaltending - and it isnt hockey.
take out the sheet of ice - and it isnt hockey.

So any one of those aspects is correctly argued that it IS the game, because without it, the sport is something different. So take the ice out too buddy, since you don't seem to bother changing whatever the hell you damn well please.

Or better yet, since you obviously dont care for the fighting, youll obviously get over it if there is no ice - do us all a favor, go watch roller hockey and leave my sport the f*** alone.


First of all let's try and be a little less 'boo-hoo somebody doesn't agree with me so I'm going to pitch fit about it and curse at them' and be a little more grown up, shall we?

Also, please stop trying to anticipate arguments…. I was not going to say anything about peewee hockey. I have never disagreed that fighting is a PART of the game and its heritage. But, your seemingly equal comparison between fighting and shooting/passing/defense/goaltending/ice/etc. is, again, way off.

No, taking fighting away from the game would not be the same as taking away the ice and turning it into roller hockey. Based on your assessment, the Wings have played in zero hockey games this year, since there have been no fights. Oh, and how many "hockey games" (with fights) did they play in last year – 10? How many NHL games have you seen without shooting, passing, defense, goaltending, or ice? None. How many have you seen without fights? An extremely large number. These are not equivalents. You are delusional if you really think that.

I never said I didn’t like or care for the fighting. I don't want it taken away from the game or anything like that. I just said I didn’t care for it in some circumstances and clearly I do not care for it nearly as much as you do…. although it seems to me that doing that would hardly be possible for anyone.

Your sport, huh? Sounds to me like you should go watch some boxing or UFC instead since the fighting is all that matters to you – or at least you should go watch the Penguins or some other team that fights a lot more than Detroit does. Maybe you would be happier and less prone to snap at someone who is just trying to have a discussion.

#37 esteef

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 11:41 AM

Boogaard especially had nothing else to offer to an NHL team.

I had to! :P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5Qu4HSiofs

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#38 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 12:14 PM

I had to! :P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5Qu4HSiofs

esteef

:lol:

That was one of his three career goals (and a total of 16 points) in 277 NHL games.


I looked up his stats on TSN. The last entry under Transactions/Injuries/Suspensions is "deceased." Friggin sad.

#39 martyrme19

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 09:13 PM

First of all let's try and be a little less 'boo-hoo somebody doesn't agree with me so I'm going to pitch fit about it and curse at them' and be a little more grown up, shall we?

Also, please stop trying to anticipate arguments…. I was not going to say anything about peewee hockey. I have never disagreed that fighting is a PART of the game and its heritage. But, your seemingly equal comparison between fighting and shooting/passing/defense/goaltending/ice/etc. is, again, way off.

No, taking fighting away from the game would not be the same as taking away the ice and turning it into roller hockey. Based on your assessment, the Wings have played in zero hockey games this year, since there have been no fights. Oh, and how many "hockey games" (with fights) did they play in last year – 10? How many NHL games have you seen without shooting, passing, defense, goaltending, or ice? None. How many have you seen without fights? An extremely large number. These are not equivalents. You are delusional if you really think that.

I never said I didn’t like or care for the fighting. I don't want it taken away from the game or anything like that. I just said I didn’t care for it in some circumstances and clearly I do not care for it nearly as much as you do…. although it seems to me that doing that would hardly be possible for anyone.

Your sport, huh? Sounds to me like you should go watch some boxing or UFC instead since the fighting is all that matters to you – or at least you should go watch the Penguins or some other team that fights a lot more than Detroit does. Maybe you would be happier and less prone to snap at someone who is just trying to have a discussion.



Let me be perfectly clear - I dont know who you are, nor do I ever intend to care. I have no invested interest in debating on this topic the way you see fit, so f*** you buddy. It's not so much, "boohoo someone disagrees with me" as it is, "is this guy really thisf****** retarted?".

You're trying to argue something that the very nature of the game has cultivated for 100 years. End of story. Don't like it, pick another sport.

I'm sick of talking to you now. If you want to keep it going, lets meet at an arena somewhere and drop the gloves. Or you can just shoot and pass the puck around, I dont give a s***.
Just for the record, the weather today is slightly sarcastic with a good chance of rain.

#40 barabbas16

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 10:13 PM

Let me be perfectly clear - I dont know who you are, nor do I ever intend to care. I have no invested interest in debating on this topic the way you see fit, so f*** you buddy. It's not so much, "boohoo someone disagrees with me" as it is, "is this guy really thisf****** retarted?".

You're trying to argue something that the very nature of the game has cultivated for 100 years. End of story. Don't like it, pick another sport.

I'm sick of talking to you now. If you want to keep it going, lets meet at an arena somewhere and drop the gloves. Or you can just shoot and pass the puck around, I dont give a s***.


Haha ok man, you're right - end of discussion. I don't even think you ever really knew exactly what the discussion was about anyway.

On a completely unrelated note... I saw a movie the other day... it had Adam Sandler and Jack Nicholson in it and they sang a song from West Side Story... can't remember the title though, can anyone help me out? Anyone?





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