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This team screams for a trade


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#281 eva unit zero

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 02:45 PM

Definitely! Simply because we won't play him in NHL.


Because Nyquist is one of the 30 most offensively talented forwards in the world right now. Yeah, that's not the case.

Eva… Hudler is not a part of this team's core. He's gone either during this season or after this season. He's never going to score 80 points, either -- regardless of how many 10 game segments of his career you prorate.


Hudler could score 80+ points if scoring went back up to its levels from say 2009 (10% higher than last year) and he were given a top-six role and top-six ice time. Right now he gets third line ice time, playing occasionally on a top-two line with underachieving forwards. The only time his linemates have succeeded to any degree were when he was with Franzen and Filppula; they scored their only points of the season playing with Hudler.


As of 2005, nobody thought journeyman minor-league goalie Tim Thomas would be a starter in the NHL. Now he has two Vezinas, a Conn Smythe, and some are arguing him as a HHOF candidate and one of the best goalies ever.
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#282 SouthernWingsFan

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 03:32 PM

Hudler could score 80+ points if scoring went back up to its levels from say 2009 (10% higher than last year) and he were given a top-six role and top-six ice time. Right now he gets third line ice time, playing occasionally on a top-two line with underachieving forwards. The only time his linemates have succeeded to any degree were when he was with Franzen and Filppula; they scored their only points of the season playing with Hudler.

Hi Apple.

As of 2005, nobody thought journeyman minor-league goalie Tim Thomas would be a starter in the NHL. Now he has two Vezinas, a Conn Smythe, and some are arguing him as a HHOF candidate and one of the best goalies ever.

I'd like you to meet Orange.

#283 Rice

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 04:51 PM

As of 2005, nobody thought journeyman minor-league goalie Tim Thomas would be a starter in the NHL. Now he has two Vezinas, a Conn Smythe, and some are arguing him as a HHOF candidate and one of the best goalies ever.

Selection bias. There are a hell of a lot more journeymen players that stay journeymen than become Tim Thomas.
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#284 darkmanx

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 05:42 PM

Because Nyquist is one of the 30 most offensively talented forwards in the world right now. Yeah, that's not the case.



Hudler could score 80+ points if scoring went back up to its levels from say 2009 (10% higher than last year) and he were given a top-six role and top-six ice time. Right now he gets third line ice time, playing occasionally on a top-two line with underachieving forwards. The only time his linemates have succeeded to any degree were when he was with Franzen and Filppula; they scored their only points of the season playing with Hudler.

As of 2005, nobody thought journeyman minor-league goalie Tim Thomas would be a starter in the NHL. Now he has two Vezinas, a Conn Smythe, and some are arguing him as a HHOF candidate and one of the best goalies ever.


So everyone else except Hudler is underachieving right now ? and because Datsyuk/Zetterberg aren't performing up to there standards they're holding Hudler from scoring 80+ points ? Seriously how much drugs do you actually do ?

#285 eva unit zero

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 06:32 PM

So everyone else except Hudler is underachieving right now ? and because Datsyuk/Zetterberg aren't performing up to there standards they're holding Hudler from scoring 80+ points ? Seriously how much drugs do you actually do ?


1) Assume Hudler would hit exactly 80 points on a Hudler/Datsyuk/Cleary line with all healthy and playing like they did last season.


2) Diminish Datsyuk's offensive preformance by 20%.


Do you not think that would affect Hudler's numbers, even if he were playing just as well? If you don't, you never get to use the argument "player X only plays well with player Y" because you clearly don't believe it in that case.


I did not say Hudler is playing well enough to hit 80 points; he's clearly not. But I was responding to an attack on my previous statements about his abilities, which he has shown many times.


Oddly enough, people never seem to get up in arms about hot stretches by Filppula or Franzen used for their "per-game" data. Wonder why.
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#286 eva unit zero

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 06:37 PM

Selection bias. There are a hell of a lot more journeymen players that stay journeymen than become Tim Thomas.


And Tim Thomas had been playing his career in the ECHL and Finland. Hudler posted a 57 point season and led the league in points-per-minute, playing 12 minutes per game on the third line. Suggesting it's impossible for him to hit 80 points if given a TRUE top-six opportunity with linemates equal to or better than what he had in 08-09 is ludicrous, at minimum.


Hudler would also produce more scoring opportunities if Babcock would use him at forward on the PP. He gets flak for not having taken shots, yet he's back at the point on the PP, or not even on the ice. He has succeeded a great deal when he's down low; give him that spot and see what happens.
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#287 WorkingOvertime

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Posted 04 November 2011 - 07:02 PM

And Tim Thomas had been playing his career in the ECHL and Finland. Hudler posted a 57 point season and led the league in points-per-minute, playing 12 minutes per game on the third line. Suggesting it's impossible for him to hit 80 points if given a TRUE top-six opportunity with linemates equal to or better than what he had in 08-09 is ludicrous, at minimum.


Hudler would also produce more scoring opportunities if Babcock would use him at forward on the PP. He gets flak for not having taken shots, yet he's back at the point on the PP, or not even on the ice. He has succeeded a great deal when he's down low; give him that spot and see what happens.

Hudler has to earn his time. Abby was the best player on the third line (after Hudler was demoted) last night. If Huds cannot outplay Abby and Helm, how can he earn top-6 ice-time?

#288 Rice

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 12:02 AM

[font="'Book Antiqua"]And Tim Thomas had been playing his career in the ECHL and Finland. Hudler posted a 57 point season and led the league in points-per-minute, playing 12 minutes per game on the third line. Suggesting it's impossible for him to hit 80 points if given a TRUE top-six opportunity with linemates equal to or better than what he had in 08-09 is ludicrous, at minimum.

Have you ever considered that the third line role was been a good thing for his production? He was playing on easily the most stacked team post-lockout. The Wings could roll out Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, and Hossa on lines one and two. After that, there wasn't much defensive pressure on Hudler's line.

Just because he had great production playing 12 minutes doesn't mean that production would carry over equally if he were playing 20 minutes.

80 point players are 80 point players. They produce with what they've got. They don't need 30 different factors to go in their favor to produce at a high level. They make their teammates better, not the other way around.

If Hudler were a foot taller, 30 pounds heavier, playing in a league with 1985 scoring levels on a line with Wayne Gretzky and Gordie Howe, and averaged 25 minutes a game I'm sure he'd get 100 points (but only if you prorate his 13 games between January 15th and February 20th)!
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#289 eva unit zero

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 01:22 AM

Hudler has to earn his time. Abby was the best player on the third line (after Hudler was demoted) last night. If Huds cannot outplay Abby and Helm, how can he earn top-6 ice-time?


Hmm. Hudler was one of the Wings' three best forwards through four games. He's pointless in six (seven for the team) and is still second on the team in even strength scoring behind Datsyuk. When the team was slaughtered by Washington, Hudler was demoted in time and line. "Second line" ice time is generally about 14-15 minutes at even strength. Hudler rarely got more than 10 or 11. He plays around 2 minutes PP, but he plays at the point in a formation neither he nor the team are familiar with. If he played along the low boards where he has had great PP success in the past, the story would be significantly different.

Have you ever considered that the third line role was been a good thing for his production? He was playing on easily the most stacked team post-lockout. The Wings could roll out Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, and Hossa on lines one and two. After that, there wasn't much defensive pressure on Hudler's line.

Just because he had great production playing 12 minutes doesn't mean that production would carry over equally if he were playing 20 minutes.


The chances of Hudler's production increasing by 67% in that scenario are pretty slim. But Hudler played 10:37 per game ES with Filppula and Samuelsson, scoring 29 ES points. Are you going to tell me that if you increase his time by 40-50% and give him better linemates, he doesn't increase his output? He posted 29 points on what was effectively a second #1 PP unit; give him a spot on the #1 unit as well as that 14-15 minutes in the top six at ES, and you think he won't get 70 points? Do you think it's better to have Bertuzzi and Abdelkader playing those minutes? Abs played more at ES against Calgary than Flip, Hudler, Helm, Homer, Emmerton, and Miller. Bertuzzi was 5th in ES with 14+ minutes and Cleary was 4th with 15+ minutes. Do you think Hudler should be outside of the top six in favor of those guys? I sure as hell don't.


If you increase Hudler's ES production over his past two seasons (averaged, total 24-30-54 in 155) by 45% (from his actual ESTOI to standard second-liner ESTOI) while using his straight combined PP total (9-31-40), and pro-rate to the 82 games he played in 2008-09. That makes for 18g-23a-41pt at ES and 7g-24a-31pt on the PP, a total of 25g-47a-72pt. That's obviously just a projection, but I think it's fair given the assumed increase in linemate quality and ice time. Small sample sizes (such as the "infamous" Hudler/Datsyuk/Cleary line) have shown that Hudler's production be higher with highly talented linemates, even though those lines will see tougher defense.

80 point players are 80 point players. They produce with what they've got. They don't need 30 different factors to go in their favor to produce at a high level. They make their teammates better, not the other way around.


Bernie Nicholls scored 70 goals and 150 points playing on Wayne Gretzky's right side. He was a good player, but would never have come close if not for that. Playing with better players makes for better results. Even Gretzky saw the benefit; if he didn't have Coffey and Kurri, he wouldn't have scored at the level he did. Gretzky, Coffey, and Kurri probably made up three of the top five offensive players in the world in the mid-80s. None of them post those numbers if they are alone on a weak team. Messier never scores 50 without Gretzky (in fact, he only scored 50 playing as Gretzky's LW) and Brett Hull isn't more than a 50 goal scorer without Adam Oates; without a top playmaker he doesn't even reach that mark.


Superstars will produce huge numbers on their own, but if you take a highly skilled player and give him the opportunity to play with other highly skilled players, he will be able to produce those numbers as well. A superstar will post better numbers playing with more highly skilled linemates. You can review these things by looking at players such as Martin Straka, Ilya Kovalchuk, Glen Murray, Marc Savard, Martin Lapointe, and many more.


Obviously the true stars make their teammates better. But it's absolutely true that a player, ANY player, can have his production increased by playing more/with better players. Corey Perry last season is a huge example of this. His production was largely inflated by playing with Ryan Getzlaf, yet Perry and his 51 goals won the Hart. It was 1991 Brett Hull overall; Oates was the better and more valuable player yet Hull received the recognition.
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#290 RedWingsExpert1988

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 10:07 AM

Hudler sucks.

He is way to weak on the boards.

He is small in size.

He looks azn.

This thread is hurting my eyes because I see Hudler talked about too much.

Oh and if you want to f**k Hudler just say so, but yea, don't try to justify it by saying he can play hockey.

K bye

#291 Electrophile

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 10:16 AM

Hudler sucks.

He is way to weak on the boards.

He is small in size.

He looks azn.

This thread is hurting my eyes because I see Hudler talked about too much.

Oh and if you want to f**k Hudler just say so, but yea, don't try to justify it by saying he can play hockey.

K bye



He looks Asian? WTF does that have to do with anything?

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#292 edicius

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 10:33 AM

He looks Asian? WTF does that have to do with anything?


Yeah, it's not like he's a woman or something that belongs in the kitchen instead of on the ice.

;)

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#293 RedWingsExpert1988

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 10:39 AM

I love it when I get negative ratings!

GO WINGS! :D

#294 Electrophile

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 10:42 AM

Yeah, it's not like he's a woman or something that belongs in the kitchen instead of on the ice.

;)



I love it when you talk sexist to me. :P

I love it when I get negative ratings!

GO WINGS! :D


So you're proud of the fact you said something quasi-racist? I'd be embarrassed. We need entertainment around here right now though, and your special brand of dumb is just the entertainment we need.

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#295 RedWingsExpert1988

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 10:48 AM

I love it when you talk sexist to me. :P



So you're proud of the fact you said something quasi-racist? I'd be embarrassed. We need entertainment around here right now though, and your special brand of dumb is just the entertainment we need.


I'm not racist. Some of my best friends are asian. But not many asians play hockey. It was a non-racist joke my friend. Lets loosen up a little bit. The world doesn't revolve around you and hudler.

#296 wings1110

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 10:53 AM

why have such an argument about the individual players, when the whole team looks like s***. if we traded everyone that wasnt reaching their full potential, and was playing like s*** we would have like 3 players left.

#297 edicius

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 10:53 AM

I love it when you talk sexist to me. :P


sudo make me a sandwich. :D

And to stay on topic, I think an interesting shake-up would be to call up a bunch of Griffins players and bench guys like Hudler, Bert, Mule and hell, maybe even Zetterberg for a game. Although I don't know how that would work with the cap, roster limits, etc.

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#298 eva unit zero

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 10:58 AM

Hudler sucks.

He is way to weak on the boards.

He is small in size.

He looks azn.

This thread is hurting my eyes because I see Hudler talked about too much.

Oh and if you want to f**k Hudler just say so, but yea, don't try to justify it by saying he can play hockey.

K bye



I'm not racist. Some of my best friends are asian. But not many asians play hockey. It was a non-racist joke my friend. Lets loosen up a little bit. The world doesn't revolve around you and hudler.


Just because you (allegedly) have friends who are Asian doesn't make you not racist. You listed a few things; outside of his appearance it was all either simply not liking the player or not liking the thread BECAUSE of the player.

sudo make me a sandwich. :D


Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

And to stay on topic, I think an interesting shake-up would be to call up a bunch of Griffins players and bench guys like Hudler, Bert, Mule and hell, maybe even Zetterberg for a game. Although I don't know how that would work with the cap, roster limits, etc.


The roster limit is 23. After sending down Brunnstrom, the Wings were at 22, hence Nyquist. Nyquist was sent down, and Smith was subsequently brought up.

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#299 RedWingsExpert1988

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 10:59 AM

why have such an argument about the individual players, when the whole team looks like s***. if we traded everyone that wasnt reaching their full potential, and was playing like s*** we would have like 3 players left.


I'm not ripping on huds (individual player(s)) because the team is in a slump. Every team has slumps. I just don't like the effort hudler, specifically, puts in night in and out. He is a good hockey player but in the minor leagues where smaller players that don't make it to the NHL shine.

#300 vladdy16

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 11:00 AM

I'm not racist. Some of my best friends are asian. But not many asians play hockey. It was a non-racist joke my friend. Lets loosen up a little bit. The world doesn't revolve around you and hudler.

If it was a joke, it was a piss-poor joke. Maybe it was the timing. Maybe the delivery. Maybe it just wasn't funny. Maybe you could try a little harder next time? And maybe you should loosen up a bit as well.
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