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Coaching part of the problem?


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#1 Lonewuhf

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 11:34 PM

So after the last game vs the Wild, I've come to the decision that coaching is still a problem. I'm not nearly as confident in Babcock anymore. He's consistently giving players chances that have proven time and time again that they don't deserve them (Cleary, Holmstrom), he refuses to put players together that have worked incredibly well in the past (Dats and Fil), and in the last 5 minutes of the game, he played the same line for seemingly 80% of the time. I don't care how good a line is, those players are going to be too tired to be effective.

We need better decisions behind the bench. We need players who are consistently playing badly to be pushed down to lower lines, so at least they get hungry for top line minutes again. Currently we're just handing players playtime who don't deserve it.

Players like Helm and Fil, who are working their asses off every game aren't getting chances they deserve either. They've been two of the best players this year, and two of the players that are giving more effort than pretty much anyone else on the team.

Dats, Z, and whoever isn't working. They played great for one game, but just plain haven't worked for a long time now. Z still has 3 points and a -4 and yet was given nearly 24 minutes. I don't understand how it works if players who are working hard are still not given opportunities when other players are playing like this. What kind of motivation is it to work hard if someone who's not producing is still given nearly 10 minutes more per game than you and much more PP time than you?

Edit: I'm not bashing Z, I'm just saying he hasn't deserved the play time he's gotten recently. Other players who are playing badly are getting time taken away, but Z is just handed more play time every game no matter how he plays. Same thing goes for a few other players too.

Edited by Lonewuhf, 29 October 2011 - 11:37 PM.


#2 wings_fanatic

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 12:32 AM

I agree that coaching is Part of the problem. I disagree with you, however, about Pavs and Hank. It think they play best when together, and they have been playing good (they had tons of chances tonight). It is only a matter of time until thinks start clicking full force for those two. In that regards, I support Babcock. However, his playing Cleary on the top 2 lines needs to end now. Cleary has been the worst player on the wings this season by far, yet he continues to be given a role on the 2 top lines and meanwhile Babcock demotes hudler!? That is not good coaching imo that is just favortism. Cleary should be on the 3rd line by now.

Another thing that I am happy about is that Babs is playing Nick a lot more lately, which is nice to see because, lets be honest, not only does he look really good out there, but he is clearly having fun with more minutes, and he is clearly our best dman by a long shot. I want to see that continue.

Going into Tuesday, Babs needs to make small changes that will spark the team, and I think that he started those changes tonight with all the mixing of things.

Zetterberg- Datsyuk- Homer (their best shifts came against the Wild when homer was on the ice with them try it for a game Babs!!)
Franzen- Filps- Hudler (I want to see babcock call this line out and tell them that if they don't play better there will be changes)
Bertuzzi- Helm- Cleary (solid 3rd line and cleary may suck on the top 2 lines, but he is a very very good 3rd line player)
Eaves- Abs- Miller (defensive responsible 4th line)

Lidstrom- White (they have been our only good pairing)
Kronners- Kindl (kronners and stu simply have not been working well together, time to try something fresh)
Ericson- Stu

- - Babcock could make a billion changes to the lines for tuesday, but it would be pointless. What it comes down to is that he needs the players to understand that they need to be committed to playing a 60 minute game with 100% EFFORT. It has come time for more strict coaching... which means that, while things should change like i said above, if certain players continue to play half-ass, then they should be benched for a game. I don't care who they are... Zetterberg, Franzen, CLEARY, Bert, Stu to name a few. If someone is benched for a game if they continue to not play as expected, then it would send a message to the team that Babs is not only in charge, but means business. That is what the Wings need right now imo.

#3 blueadams

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 12:35 AM

agree and disagree.

agree that it's INSANE to not play pav and val together.

agree that it's INSANE to keep playing bert (but not homer, and definitely not cleary).

but it's pretty early to completely abandon ship on a guy that's long been considered to be one of the, if not the, best coaches in all of hockey.

#4 Lonewuhf

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 01:02 AM

agree and disagree.

agree that it's INSANE to not play pav and val together.

agree that it's INSANE to keep playing bert (but not homer, and definitely not cleary).

but it's pretty early to completely abandon ship on a guy that's long been considered to be one of the, if not the, best coaches in all of hockey.


It's not just this year. I don't feel he's made some of the best decisions for the past few seasons. He just seems to send the wrong messages to the players with the way he runs things. He's tired of people not putting forth enough effort, yet not only does he not punish those players, he seems to reward them.

#5 NBCnothingbutcrosby

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 01:06 AM

I've been saying for the past 3 years to get rid of Cleary, and how he isn't worth his contract $$. Often injured, under performing. Too many Cleary supporters here; I believe this will be the year that Cleary REALLY regresses. The most annoying part? He's making 3 million this year and has a NTC. I don't want to hear anyone else complain this season after you've all given me sh*t about hating him. Just for perspective these players are also making 3 million this year...

Loui Eriksson
Alexander Frolov
Patric Hornqvist
Olli Jokinen
Rostislav Klesla
Martin Hanzal

Hell, I'd take any of them over Cleary. Lets face it our organization is OVERLY loyal; Draper stayed 2 years longer than he should of, Maltby as well.

Let the flames begin, it's just the bitter truth. Enjoy Cleary's ineffectivness before he gets injured for another 30 games again this year guys!!
Not now chief, I'm in the zone.


#6 wingsfan4795

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 02:15 AM

Ive always hated Toronto and Montreal fans because they are turn on their own team on a dime. I never thought Detroit fans would stoop to that level... Guess im wrong. How can you blame the COACH for the fact that the best PLAYERS aren't performing?
I actually really like the second and third lines so far. I wouldn't mind seeing hudler replace cleary on the first line to try and spice things up a bit
Go babs!
Go wings!

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#7 blueadams

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 02:42 AM

I've been saying for the past 3 years to get rid of Cleary, and how he isn't worth his contract $$. Often injured, under performing. Too many Cleary supporters here; I believe this will be the year that Cleary REALLY regresses. The most annoying part? He's making 3 million this year and has a NTC. I don't want to hear anyone else complain this season after you've all given me sh*t about hating him. Just for perspective these players are also making 3 million this year...

Loui Eriksson
Alexander Frolov
Patric Hornqvist
Olli Jokinen
Rostislav Klesla
Martin Hanzal

Hell, I'd take any of them over Cleary. Lets face it our organization is OVERLY loyal; Draper stayed 2 years longer than he should of, Maltby as well.

Let the flames begin, it's just the bitter truth. Enjoy Cleary's ineffectivness before he gets injured for another 30 games again this year guys!!


Keeping Draper and Maltby on the team...while letting Kopecky go in FA and trading Leino for nothing...was one of the most infuriating occurences I've ever experienced with this team. That really sent the wrong message. That was really - really - being too loyal. That was really, really ridiculous.

But as much as I hate to do it, there are two sides. You have to appreciate management for being able to draft that kind of talent in the first place (before mis-managing it).

#8 Red Crazy

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 06:16 AM

Ive always hated Toronto and Montreal fans because they are turn on their own team on a dime. I never thought Detroit fans would stoop to that level... Guess im wrong. How can you blame the COACH for the fact that the best PLAYERS aren't performing?
I actually really like the second and third lines so far. I wouldn't mind seeing hudler replace cleary on the first line to try and spice things up a bit
Go babs!
Go wings!

Coaches are always fired because the players are not performing. Fair or not, it is their job to make sure that the players are playing well and if not to make changes. Babcock is a great coach but needs to change things up a bit more often.

#9 GMRwings1983

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 11:16 AM

Babcock is a great coach, but players do eventually tune a coach out of their minds after some time.

I don't think he's a great motivator anymore, as witnessed by this team taking too many games off last season. He's a pretty intense guy, but it doesn't always seem to come through to his team.

Too many floaters in the lineup which need to be motivated.
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#10 IllinoisRedWingsFan

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 12:23 PM

I've been saying for the past 3 years to get rid of Cleary, and how he isn't worth his contract $. Often injured, under performing. Too many Cleary supporters here; I believe this will be the year that Cleary REALLY regresses. The most annoying part? He's making 3 million this year and has a NTC. I don't want to hear anyone else complain this season after you've all given me sh*t about hating him. Just for perspective these players are also making 3 million this year...

Loui Eriksson
Alexander Frolov
Patric Hornqvist
Olli Jokinen
Rostislav Klesla
Martin Hanzal

Hell, I'd take any of them over Cleary. Lets face it our organization is OVERLY loyal; Draper stayed 2 years longer than he should of, Maltby as well.

Let the flames begin, it's just the bitter truth. Enjoy Cleary's ineffectivness before he gets injured for another 30 games again this year guys!!

I am sorry to say but I have to agree with you on this one because while yes being loyal to someone like Stevie Y. or Lidstorm is good but being loyal to someone like Cleary who has been AWFUL this year come on! Common sense needs to come into play here for once in the Detroit offices.

#11 Red Wings Addict

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 12:26 PM

If you read the news reports you'll see that Babs thinks they played a good game right from the get go. I don't know who to believe.

#12 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 12:52 PM

Babcock is a great coach, but players do eventually tune a coach out of their minds after some time.

I don't think he's a great motivator anymore, as witnessed by this team taking too many games off last season. He's a pretty intense guy, but it doesn't always seem to come through to his team.

Too many floaters in the lineup which need to be motivated.

That's my fear too. That he had everyone playing a system the first couple seasons and doing the little things right, but now the novelty of it has worn off and he can't motivate guys like he used to.

Hell, maybe he does need to go Scotty Bowman on players and start sitting a few of the stars when they don't perform. After a solid start, Mule has gone pointless in 4 games and worse than that has made terrible turnovers. Though if Babcock sat him during the regular season I don't know if Franzen would just thank him and wait around for the playoffs. Hudler is pointless in 5 games and his last shot on goal was October 21st against Columbus. He's seen his ice time cut the last game, but maybe the pressbox should be the next stop.

And to answer the original question of the thread, yes, coaching is partly to blame for sure.

Edited by haroldsnepsts, 30 October 2011 - 12:53 PM.


#13 Crymson

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 02:09 PM

Five wins and four losses? The coaches suck Never mind that we have two new assistants. Never mind that Babcock is one of the best in the league; the grass is guaranteed to be greener on the other side---fire him!!

Cleary hasn't been doing well so far. He's terrible! Send him off the team! Nine games with less production is unacceptable!

I am sorry to say but I have to agree with you on this one because while yes being loyal to someone like Stevie Y. or Lidstorm is good but being loyal to someone like Cleary who has been AWFUL this year come on! Common sense needs to come into play here for once in the Detroit offices.


Bwahaha. OK. So nine games of bad play means that a player is horrible and that not trading him entails excessive loyalty on the part of the front office. Thank goodness you're not a GM.

#14 wingsfan4795

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 02:20 PM

Exactly! This thread is rediculous
Just because a player or team has a bad few games doesn't mean the c

Five wins and four losses? The coaches suck Never mind that we have two new assistants. Never mind that Babcock is one of the best in the league; the grass is guaranteed to be greener on the other side---fire him!!

Cleary hasn't been doing well so far. He's terrible! Send him off the team! Nine games with less production is unacceptable!



Bwahaha. OK. So nine games of bad play means that a player is horrible and that not trading him entails excessive loyalty on the part of the front office. Thank goodness you're not a GM.


Exactly! This thread is rediculous
Just because a player or team has a bad few games doesn't mean the coach should be fired. Babcock is easily the best coach in the last 10 years


Five wins and four losses? The coaches suck Never mind that we have two new assistants. Never mind that Babcock is one of the best in the league; the grass is guaranteed to be greener on the other side---fire him!!

Cleary hasn't been doing well so far. He's terrible! Send him off the team! Nine games with less production is unacceptable!



Bwahaha. OK. So nine games of bad play means that a player is horrible and that not trading him entails excessive loyalty on the part of the front office. Thank goodness you're not a GM.


Good rule of thumb is always take an octopus everywhere. Better to have one and not need it than find yourself thinking, "Damn, I wish I had that octopus".

 

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#15 Lonewuhf

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 02:26 PM

Five wins and four losses? The coaches suck Never mind that we have two new assistants. Never mind that Babcock is one of the best in the league; the grass is guaranteed to be greener on the other side---fire him!!

Cleary hasn't been doing well so far. He's terrible! Send him off the team! Nine games with less production is unacceptable!



Bwahaha. OK. So nine games of bad play means that a player is horrible and that not trading him entails excessive loyalty on the part of the front office. Thank goodness you're not a GM.


Thanks for taking what I said and blowing it completely out of proportion. If you have any VALID arguments, post them here, otherwise please stop posting in this thread. I didn't pull a "OMG OUR TEAM SUCKS WE WONT MAKE THE PLAYOFFS SCREW EVERYONE" post, it was just to point out MY personal point of view. I don't care what our record is, we've played like s*** the last 4 games, the coaches keep doing things that obviously aren't working, and are rewarding players who aren't performing. We've scored 4 goals in the last 3 games, you can play it off all you want, but something's wrong, and something needs to be changed.

#16 Crymson

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 03:18 PM

We've scored 4 goals in the last 3 games, you can play it off all you want, but something's wrong, and something needs to be changed.


Then go ahead and change it.

#17 Probie

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 03:56 PM

Babcock is a great coach, but players do eventually tune a coach out of their minds after some time.

I don't think he's a great motivator anymore, as witnessed by this team taking too many games off last season. He's a pretty intense guy, but it doesn't always seem to come through to his team.

Too many floaters in the lineup which need to be motivated.

Exactly.

One other thing touched on by other posters in the thread regarding excessive line combos....babs has hinted through the media almost that personal need to be changed, like forward speed or the Burns signing etc, but Holland has not given him what he desires, so Babs hands are tied- he has parts that don't work together so he is almost forced to play with the lines trying to find something that does work.

You have one legit goal scoring winger that has the goal scoring ability to play on the top two lines in Franzen who is inconsistent. All the other wingers we have are either not in their prime Bertuzzi and homer, or lack the finishing ability to get the job done cleary, hudler for example. we have a good prospect pool, it wouldn't hurt our future if we dealt a pick or two and a prospect or two in addition to a couple roster player to get what we need.

#18 evil204

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 03:58 PM

Then go ahead and change it.

I'm curious...have you ever lost an argument?

#19 Shoreline

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 06:48 PM

I'm curious...have you ever lost an argument?

The Tiger blood is strong in that one.

#20 Lonewuhf

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 07:24 PM

Then go ahead and change it.


I guess we may as well just change the website name to "Lets go Crymson" since you're obviously the only one that matters.





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