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Own success is our downfall


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#1 Andy Pred 48

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 11:25 AM

lets see where we are after the 6 game homestand............yep this is usually the answer around here. We'll be ok its just a lul their
going thru,they'll pull out of it. Maybe we have hit the point where the Wings need to rebuild. After so many years of success and low round draft picks, eventually your team is going to be full of these type of players, unless trades take place to up the skill level of the team.Who was the last bonifide superstar we actually drafted in the 1st round? A player who'll ave a pt per game? That'll be back in '83 with Stevie Y, that is too long and yes i know we have traded away alot of our 1st round picks between those years. The problem is our own success and the new cap era. We cant just go out and sign 2 or 3 stars anymore and our low end 1st rounders havent really panned out all that well. Fish would have but for his illness. Kronner is good now and then but isnt consistent enough. Every 1st round pick we had since '93 until '07 we have drafted Dmen. Sheahan is the first Fwd we have tken in the 1st round since Curtis Bowen in '92, and we all know what happened there! So i guess maybe the time for us to keep letting our top prospects mature in the AHL for 3-4 years is coming to an end?
We are running short of options in the current 23 man roster, maybe sending Brunnstrom on waivers is a prelude to calling up some young fresh blood in GR. Time and time again I here Babs and Kenny state that the best players will play, well guys the so called best players aint getting it done as of yet,how much leeway do we give them? Why have talent sitting in the minors when they could mature alongside the vets for a season and learn the trade off them? In the past we never gave them a chance because of our loaded roster, maybe its now time for the wind to change direction and alter our thinking on these matters. We sure need a shake up and unless Kenny has the balls to pull the trigger on a trade, then the only option is to call up the kids. Times are a changing around the league and we cant get left behind.
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#2 GMRwings1983

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 11:28 AM

Good post, but before Crymson gets here and trolls I'll say this.

OMG, WE'RE NOT MAKING THE PLAYOFFS. WE ONLY WON 4 CUPS IN THE LAST 15 YEARS AND I'M NOT SATISFIED. IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD. TRADE LIDSTROM AND DATSYUK FOR ENFORCERS!!!!!
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#3 VM1138

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 11:32 AM

Exactly how many teams draft a point per game player in the 1st round every year? You talk like it's just a matter of making a 1st round pick to get a superstar.
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#4 GMRwings1983

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 11:37 AM

Exactly how many teams draft a point per game player in the 1st round every year? You talk like it's just a matter of making a 1st round pick to get a superstar.


Edmonton has tried hard enough to do that over the years.
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#5 Andy Pred 48

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 04:51 PM

Exactly how many teams draft a point per game player in the 1st round every year? You talk like it's just a matter of making a 1st round pick to get a superstar.

I havent said it was easy to do have I, Pittsburgh have done it 5 times thou since we have.my point is that we havent had 1 in 28 years, that is not down to bad luck is it? surely we could spot some sort of forward talent in that period of time, Joe Murphy and Keith Primeau have been the closest and they spent most of their careers away from Detroit. My beef is how the system is set up. When there was no cap, the teams who finished in the lower end's of the table got to pick first, so in theory they would have better players going to their org. Now we are supposed to have parity within the league with the cap, so why do we still reward teams who finish bottom with the first draft picks? Surely we should reward teams who manage their budgets and teams better with the higher draft picks at seasons end. This would stop teams, like the Pens did for a few years, tanking for better picks. I know the goal is the Cup but if the league want parity then it has to be done across the board on all aspects of the league's foundations. Its been done like that for ever i know, but we havent had the cap era for ever and with that other changes in the structure need to be made and the draft system is one of them in my opinion.
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#6 Nev

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 05:02 PM

Its a reasonable assesment. In the cap world you need to get good players playing for cheap, before they sign massive contracts once they are established stars. Look at the teams that have won in the Cap era, they almost all had good young players playing for less than they were worth. Anaheim (Getzlaf, Perry), Chicago (Kane, Toews), Pittsburgh (Crosby, Malkin). Even our 2008 team had a lot of players earning less than they do now - Zetterberg, Flip, Hudler, Sammuelson etc.
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#7 wingfanatic4alltime

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 10:16 PM

GMR ill add to your post FIRE BABCOCK FIRE HOLLAND SELL THE TEAM ILLITCH :ph34r:
IN KENNY WE TRUST!!

#8 dobbles

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Posted 30 October 2011 - 11:12 PM

this thread is stupid. the assumption is that we dont draft first rounders that turn into point per game players. and while true, its not important. the wings draft their point per game players in any round of the draft. detroit has an amazing amount of guys drafted and developed on their own. many more players that were traded in return for other assets that were drafted and developed. not to mention a pretty good track record of finding other peoples diamonds in the rough and turning them around.

the team is 5 and 4. its october. we all have our own reasons for why the team has been losing. but lack of good drafting or player development is the LAST place anyone needs to look as to why this team has been in a funk the last week or two. bad drafting and development is a long term, large scale overarching problem. to imply that it is an issue would be to imply that the wings have been having trouble for a while. thats just not the case. as disappointed as we all were the last 2 springs, there were only 4 teams that made it further than the wings. and i am pretty sure the wings have played more playoff games since the lockout than anyone. they are obviously doing just fine without any first round picks that were point per game players.

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#9 55fan

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 12:13 AM

So we should start drafting stars in the first round instead of the seventh? Novel concept. We'll file it.

#10 Frozen-Man

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 12:39 AM

The reason why is simple. The Wings win so they don't draft high. You want to draft players like Chicago, Pitt, and Edmonton have then you better want the Wings to suck for the better part of a decade because that is what those teams had to do to draft where they did and thus be able to get the players they did. If not just enjoy the unparalleled success that the Wings have had.

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#11 wingsfan4795

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 01:07 AM

I'm really starting to think I'm on a Montreal canadiens forum. What is with you guys? Look at the shots in the last 4 games

They outshot the caps, sharks, killed the wild on shots, and were outshot by 1 shot against the jackets

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#12 Crymson

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 04:01 AM

I'll take 20 years of playoffs and four (almost five) Stanley Cups, thanks. The other teams can have their rebuilds.

Edited by Crymson, 31 October 2011 - 04:01 AM.


#13 Andy Pred 48

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 04:34 AM

I'm really starting to think I'm on a Montreal canadiens forum. What is with you guys? Look at the shots in the last 4 games

They outshot the caps, sharks, killed the wild on shots, and were outshot by 1 shot against the jackets


exactly, we are outshooting teams but not burying the biscuit enough to win games.one of two excusess,1) their goalie played on his head, so our guys aint working them out, but is funny how many times we do outshot teams
altogether and only win by the odd goal or lose. when was the last time we got owned on the shot count and won the game?
2)lack of a genuine sniper is costing us games that we should be winning.a fact that should have been addressed by
Kenny before now.

on another note, im happy to discuss topics on here with honest debating but some posters seem to take offence with any thread that dares to question the Wings ideas and shoot the thread down at the off. Im not asking everyone to agree with me but maybe put forward a valid point as to why they dont would be more benefical to all.
The thing is alot of fans on here can only remember the Wings being a winning franchise and havent had to watch them go through a lean spell, and we were dire, a period of 15 years in the 70's to the early 80's of below .500 hockey was no fun believe me. One playoff apperance in 13 season,and coach Neale's one season in the mid 80's when we lost 57 games not won them! i wonder what this board would be like with that sort of record!! Anyway i digress, what i wanted to imply in the org topic was that being so successful is slowly going to catch up with us if we dont make some sort of moves, standing pat will bite us in the butt eventually. There is no need for a complete overhaul by any means, as stated its only 9 games in and we have a winning record to date. I am all for getting some of our younger prospects in and giving them a feel of the big league thou instead of getting in players on 1 to 2 year deals as a stop gap not only would it help the rookies learn, but would also have left more $'s in the bank to make a move come the FA window.
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"Er, no. No thanks guys." Reggie Dunlop
"Make sure they don't leave the bench!" Reggie Dunlop.

#14 LeftWinger

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 05:18 AM

The bottom line? I've said it a few times in the last few days, this team is what it is. You have seen to peak of every core player on this team, noone is getting any better. You have a system full of mediocre players with "potential" and that is all. But this is the product you are going to get for being so good for so long. Holland has done the best he can with the picks he is given, but when you are consistently this good, even your first round picks are pretty much just high second rounders, and that is what we are seeing.

This team will bounce back, its not like they are garbage. They are what they are, but what they are is a good team. We've seen it, they'll get back to winning this year, make the playoffs and everyone here will enjoy the season. But if you guys expect the likes of Franzen or Hudler or Filppula, etc... to "grow" and become something that we haven't already seen, then you are in for a huge disappointment. The only player on this team that is going to "grow" at all is Emmerton and that is because we haven't seen him for an entire season yet. The rest of the team, including Datsyuk and Howard, will not all of a sudden become anything more than they have already been, and that is what it is. Not saying they are bad, or even remotely bad. They are stars in their own right, but they have peaked already. You cannot ask Howard to win 37 games every year, it just won't happen. Datsyuk cannot be a top 5 scorer and top 5 defender every year.

This team screams of change soon. Abandon ship? No. But within the next 2-3 years if we have the same team, you will see some dark years I do believe...

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#15 Shoreline

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 09:29 AM

Everyone knows the success the Red Wings have had will only last so long. I'm pretty sure where the counter-attitude comes from, to address a few posts which already brought it up, is there's so many posters who would (rather than enjoy the ride, simply get upset as normal people do about losses and move on, spending more time enjoying successes, which are many) be the kids in the back seat bitching about every little thing along the way, trying to make the ride miserable for everyone else too. Who can tolerate that?

Maybe this is the year the Red Wings finally show their age and the good ol' boys treatment catches up with the organization, but the blow-up-the-team attitude is stillf****** ridiculous after 9 games and a 4 game losing streak. Have some faith in the team that has shown so much consistency, and when your faith isn't rewarded with some form of success, which I believe as a consensus would suggest this is making the playoffs (we all want to win the cup but not even the best of teams can win it every year) then is the time to blow the team up and talk the way the OP is about swapping Grand Rapids for Detroit.

Edited by Shoreline, 31 October 2011 - 09:31 AM.


#16 jollymania

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 06:01 PM

they have cap room to trade for a big name, i doubt they will need to though, we have a solid team that has a chance of winning the cup
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#17 Supertack

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 06:28 PM

Most teams with periods of sustained success will go through periods of down years. The key is to limit those years. Detroit has done that remarkably well the last 20 years, but definately had some lean times in the 70s and 80s.

I dunno that those bad years were a spring board for the success they've had since, as the draft is much more important now than it was then, but your team has also been privy (because of their success) to being a destination spot for high profile free agents as a result.

This is the thing, you can piss on the Hawks all you want because the had a downtrodden decade and stocked up with good players as a result, but keep in mind when Chicago was going deep into the playoffs every year in the 80s, the Wings were completely off the map. It goes in cycles, and most seasoned hockey fans know that.

#18 Buppy

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 10:06 PM

exactly, we are outshooting teams but not burying the biscuit enough to win games.one of two excusess,1) their goalie played on his head, so our guys aint working them out, but is funny how many times we do outshot teams
altogether and only win by the odd goal or lose. when was the last time we got owned on the shot count and won the game?
2)lack of a genuine sniper is costing us games that we should be winning.a fact that should have been addressed by
Kenny before now.

...what i wanted to imply in the org topic was that being so successful is slowly going to catch up with us if we dont make some sort of moves, standing pat will bite us in the butt eventually. There is no need for a complete overhaul by any means, as stated its only 9 games in and we have a winning record to date. I am all for getting some of our younger prospects in and giving them a feel of the big league thou instead of getting in players on 1 to 2 year deals as a stop gap not only would it help the rookies learn, but would also have left more $'s in the bank to make a move come the FA window.

I have to disagree about 'needing' a sniper. Yes, the offense has been stagnant the past few games, and the PP has sucked most of the season. But in the first five games we scored 18 goals, putting us near the top of the league. Last season we were 2nd in the league in GF, only 1 goal less than Vancouver (and that with Datsyuk missing time, and Mule, Huds, and Flip having sub-par seasons). It is far more likely that the first five games are much more indicative of our offensive capabilities than are the last four. Acquiring a good sniper would certainly be great, so long as we don't have to give up too much to do so, but it's not really needed. We have 3-5 guys capable of 30+ goals, plus another handful capable of 20+, and several defensemen that can generate offense. We could easily end up leading the league in goals this year.

I think you expect far too much from Kenny. Since the lockout we are the highest scoring team in the league. And that's with a down year following the loss of Steve and Shanny, and the injury plague in 09-10. Kenny has done a fantastic job, not just in helping us stay a contender every year, but doing so without mortgaging the future. Despite the lack of any top picks in recent memory; we are still a contender this year, AND we are in excellent position in regards the to salary cap, AND we actually have a pretty solid prospect pool.

Of course our roll won't last forever. It may even end sooner rather than later. But to say the organization should have done a better job, or even could have (without both the ability to see the future and employ mind-control on other GMs) is pretty ridiculous.

#19 13dangledangle

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 09:18 AM

Datsyuk cannot be a top 5 scorer and top 5 defender every year.



THATS HIS JOB.

Edited by 13dangledangle, 01 November 2011 - 09:19 AM.

....Ladies and Gentlemen Jimmy "F%$*ing" Howard.

#20 lil Wing's fan

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 09:21 AM

THATS HIS JOB.



It's true, who is suppose to?





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