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Norris Watch


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#1 number9

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 08:09 AM

My finalists right now are....

1. Letang (winner)
2. Souray
3. Phaneuf
Honorable mention: Lidstrom, Weber, Chara, Green, Pronger

By the end of the season I hope it will look like this....

1. Lidstrom (he needs just one more!!!!)
2. Letang
3. Weber
Honorable mention: Souray, Chara, Doughty, Green, Yandle, Keith, Phaneuf, Pronger

I'm really hoping Nick can get that last one to tie Bobby, but he's in for a fight. There are a plethora of great d-men this year, and many of them are maturing nicely into their prime. In all honesty I think Letang will take the Norris this year. I hate to say a pen will win anything, but I was very surprised he wasn't one of the finalists last year. The dude can do everything. Souray I think will give everyone a run for their money as well. Totally underrated.

I don't think Green can win (weak in his own end), or Doughty (not being coached properly), or Yandle (too busy carrying the yotes), or Keith (completely overrated).

I think Weber is overrated as well (the dude never plays with a bad defensive partner), but he is better than most and has some great leadership qualities. Phaneuf to me is like Weber's twin playwise, though he has shown he can play with weaker partners. I'd also like to see Pronger do well (another thing I hate to say). It's a shame such a prolific d-man has only won the Norris once. And of course Chara will do well. Anybody 6'9" and 260lbs will do well.

would love to hear some opinions

#2 eva unit zero

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 08:45 AM

Souray and Phaneuf have been scoring well, but still look bad defensively. No way they stay in the Norris conversation.

I think your Phaneuf vs. Weber assessment is way off; Phaneuf has always been a huge liability defense. Only in the past 20-25 games or so for the Leafs has he played ANY kind of actual defense. Weber has always been pretty decent in his own zone, although not quite as good as a guy like Suter.

Green and Phaneuf are much closer in playing style than Weber and Phaneuf, historically; save for the fact that Green is faster.


Keith is not really that overrated. It's more that people look at his performance year last year and and think "how did this guy win the Norris?" when he was much better the previous two years.

Edited by eva unit zero, 01 November 2011 - 08:48 AM.

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#3 St. Michael (the Red Wing)

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 08:53 AM

Jason Garrison has probably been the best d-man in the league so far. All the name's mentioned already ok yeah top names. But Garrison's playing on FLORIDA lol a decent team now maybe with some trades still decent. Garrison's looked really good in both ends of the ice. He hits hard, scores and makes that first pass out of the zone tape to tape all the time of the Flordia games I watched. Tough loss last night though.

#4 number9

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 09:45 AM

Souray and Phaneuf have been scoring well, but still look bad defensively. No way they stay in the Norris conversation.

I think your Phaneuf vs. Weber assessment is way off; Phaneuf has always been a huge liability defense. Only in the past 20-25 games or so for the Leafs has he played ANY kind of actual defense. Weber has always been pretty decent in his own zone, although not quite as good as a guy like Suter.

Green and Phaneuf are much closer in playing style than Weber and Phaneuf, historically; save for the fact that Green is faster.

Keith is not really that overrated. It's more that people look at his performance year last year and and think "how did this guy win the Norris?" when he was much better the previous two years.


I think Phaneuf and Souray will surprise ppl. They're certainly not bad defensively. They're better than most defensively and bring a huge physical presence in front of the net and along the boards.

Phaneuf v. Weber v. Green
Phaneuf and Weber r both big and physical on defense, have cannons from the blue line on offense, and can fight. Classic d-men. Green is like a 6th forward. More speed than Weber and Phaneuf, is a better passer than Weber and Phaneuf, and has a lot less of a presence in the defensive zone. Green plays physical too, but not nearly as much as Weber or Phaneuf, and hes less of a fighter.

Weber is overrated in his own zone. Suter is underrated in his own zone. If Phaneuf played with Suter he'd look sweet in his own zone too.

I agree with you that Phaneuf has played better in the last 20-25 games. I think he has officially entered his prime. Experience has given him, and is giving him, smarts on the ice that he somewhat lacked before. Good defense can be taught.


Your statement about Keith is true, that is what I heard from most people about him, but I still think hes overrated. I don't think last year was a slump for him, I think the year CHI won the cup was a fluke year for him. I've never been super impressed by him. He's a great leader, smart on the ice, and a great two-way defender. I just don't think he has the raw talent to put up 60-70 pts a year consistently. Weber, Phaneuf, Souray, Green, ect. have those skills/ that talent.

Any suggestions on finalists/winner now, and at the end of the year?

#5 number9

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 09:58 AM

Jason Garrison has probably been the best d-man in the league so far. All the name's mentioned already ok yeah top names. But Garrison's playing on FLORIDA lol a decent team now maybe with some trades still decent. Garrison's looked really good in both ends of the ice. He hits hard, scores and makes that first pass out of the zone tape to tape all the time of the Flordia games I watched. Tough loss last night though.


Florida is mainly why hes not in the conversation. I don't think he can keep it up on that team. This is also really the first time he's been this decent. He may be riding a hot streak? I didn't consider him for the Norris now at this moment cause I know he won't be on anyones tongue by the end of the year. Good for him and Florida thou. I hope he proves me wrong.

#6 Finnish Wing

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 11:44 AM

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#7 toby91_ca

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 11:54 AM

10 games in?

#8 eva unit zero

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 12:01 PM

Your statement about Keith is true, that is what I heard from most people about him, but I still think hes overrated. I don't think last year was a slump for him, I think the year CHI won the cup was a fluke year for him.


Keith was the second best defenseman in the league the year before he won the Norris. Last year was the fluke year.
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#9 number9

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 12:32 PM

Keith was the second best defenseman in the league the year before he won the Norris. Last year was the fluke year.


I honestly don't know if your serious

He was not a Norris finalist that year. He finished 20th in scoring for d-men. He wasn't even ranked by fantasy in top 15 lists for d-men that year. ect.

you get a cookie for the joke though :)

#10 Konnan511

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 12:36 PM

The same Souray who was on the waiver wire last season? He'll come back down to Earth.
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#11 number9

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 12:44 PM

10 games in?


yes

#12 number9

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 12:51 PM

The same Souray who was on the waiver wire last season? He'll come back down to Earth.


Another joke?
That was not at all because he was a lackluster d-man.

Edited by number9, 01 November 2011 - 12:52 PM.


#13 eva unit zero

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 01:16 PM

I honestly don't know if your serious

He was not a Norris finalist that year. He finished 20th in scoring for d-men. He wasn't even ranked by fantasy in top 15 lists for d-men that year. ect.

you get a cookie for the joke though :)


Oooh, fantasy. How many years during his career has Lidstrom been the best fantasy defenseman?


Another joke?
That was not at all because he was a lackluster d-man.


Actually, yes it was. He was waived and sent to the AHL. You don't do that unless A) the player is playing poorly or B) you want to use his cap space for something else. Souray is case A. Wade Redden is case B. Unfortunately for Redden, the Rangers realized that they now can't have him on the roster over worse defensemen because they would be over the cap, and last year traded a solid player in Tim Kennedy to get Bryan McCabe - equally expensive and no better than Redden - because they can't afford to get stuck with half of his cap hit losing him on re-entry waivers. Souray was placed on re-entry waivers, and nobody took him; he was subsequently reassigned to the AHL.


Cleared waivers at full price and HALF price, headed to the AHL both times, and you're saying it's not because he was playing poorly? Please. Studly Wonderbomb is NOT a Norris contender, regardless of how nice a start he may have had.
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#14 toby91_ca

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 01:43 PM

I honestly don't know if your serious

He was not a Norris finalist that year. He finished 20th in scoring for d-men. He wasn't even ranked by fantasy in top 15 lists for d-men that year. ect.

you get a cookie for the joke though :)

He finished 6 in Norris voting. Doesn't support Eva's claim that he was second best, but does suggest he was pretty good. It also doesn't suggest he wasn't second best either. Just because voters picked someone else, it doesn't mean their pick was the better player. It's all subjective. Problem is that Eva tends to communicate personal opinions as if they were facts.

#15 number9

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 02:26 PM


Oooh, fantasy. How many years during his career has Lidstrom been the best fantasy defenseman?



Actually, yes it was. He was waived and sent to the AHL. You don't do that unless A) the player is playing poorly or B) you want to use his cap space for something else. Souray is case A. Wade Redden is case B. Unfortunately for Redden, the Rangers realized that they now can't have him on the roster over worse defensemen because they would be over the cap, and last year traded a solid player in Tim Kennedy to get Bryan McCabe - equally expensive and no better than Redden - because they can't afford to get stuck with half of his cap hit losing him on re-entry waivers. Souray was placed on re-entry waivers, and nobody took him; he was subsequently reassigned to the AHL.

Cleared waivers at full price and HALF price, headed to the AHL both times, and you're saying it's not because he was playing poorly? Please. Studly Wonderbomb is NOT a Norris contender, regardless of how nice a start he may have had.


Your avoiding the fact that you incorrectly called Keith the 2nd best d-man in the league the year b4 he won the Norris. Attacking fantasy sports is a childish way of dealing with being wrong. But to answer your question simply, I'm pretty sure Lidstrom has never been outside the top 10. And only recently has he slipped from the top 5. I don't remember how many times he's been first.
It doesn't really matter though, Keith was not close to 2nd in anything that year. Scoring, Trophies, Fantasy, ect. Your just wrong. Simple.

Nope. Wrong again. He bashed Edmonton's management and accused them of a bunch of BS. And he demanded to be traded off the team. Edmonton told him he would never skate as an Oiler again, didn't invite him to camp, and tried to trade him. They couldn't trade him for a number of reasons, but mostly because he had a giant contract and no real potential trade partners could afford him. I don't think many were interested him anyway, seeing as he came off as locker room cancer at defcon 5. So they were forced to give him the ol waiver, cause there was no way he was lacin em up for Edmonton. It had absolutely nothing to do with his play.

#16 GMRwings1983

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 04:15 PM

The same Souray who was on the waiver wire last season? He'll come back down to Earth.


Not if he stays healthy.

He's got too great a shot from the point not to score a lot.
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#17 Doc Holliday

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 05:56 PM

Not if he stays healthy.

He's got too great a shot from the point not to score a lot.


Green scored 30 goals in a season and still didn't win the Norris.

Not sure how his ability to score from the point is going to make up the difference in ability between him and the elite defenseman of the NHL.

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#18 Electrophile

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 06:17 PM

I look at it this way - the Norris Trophy is Nick's to lose every season. Sometimes he wins it, sometimes he doesn't. Either way, he starts out with it.

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#19 number9

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 06:57 PM

Green scored 30 goals in a season and still didn't win the Norris.

Not sure how his ability to score from the point is going to make up the difference in ability between him and the elite defenseman of the NHL.


I think he was referring to Souray "not coming back down to earth" scoring wise. Not the Norris.

If Souray can keep up the defense he's displaying now he could end up elite. He certainly has the size and strength a lot of players are not blessed with. We'll see if he keeps it up.

#20 Shoreline

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 07:09 PM

Uhh, if Souray can both stay healthy and not make himself prone to horrendous mistakes that's been plaguing his career as far as the "defensive" side of being a D-man is concerned, I can see him contending. He's long been one of my favourite D-men in the league but I'm pretty sure considering him bucking his career trends and managing to stay this consistent enough, and more, since others are doing better than him on the O-side, to be recognized for the Norris at the end of the season after 11 of 82 games played is exaggeratedly optimistic. I don't even believe in talking about the Norris candidate I think might win with like 7/8 of the season in front of the league left to play, as it's rather nonsensical as anything can change rather quickly, but to each their own.

Edited by Shoreline, 01 November 2011 - 07:10 PM.






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