30 replies to this topic

[WorkingOvertime]

Maybe on your scale. Not on mine, if you actually read my post.



Hudler and Z were rated as about even; Z has been invisible for much of the season to-date, and for the first few games Hudler was absolutely stellar. Both have had plenty of bad games, so ultimately it comes down to the fact that Z has generally been less of an offensive presence despite playing so much more. Eaves and Abby were rated as about even, because Emmerton has generally looked pretty darn good but hasn't played a lot while Abby and Eaves played more per game but have been much more up or down. Abdelkader will either look like total crap, or have a strong game where he's out banging, creating space, an playing solid D. Emmerton has, almost every night he's played, been a solid defensive presence and generally reliable. Both have been sub-par on face-offs, so that's not something you can hit either on in a comparison.

I don't expect these ratings to hold through the 25-game mark... if they do I will NOT be a happy camper.

I can see how you would rank Huds and Z equally- they are both playing well below their potential. IMO the difference between the two players is that Z has still been creating chances (albeit not many), while Hudler hasn't. This isn't a knock on Hudler- he is just not the type of player to lead a line (he is best complimenting skilled players). This is why he looks decent/good with skilled players, and relatively useless with gritty players (Abby and Helm).

I am admittedly biased, but I think Abby and Helm (Homer if you include him too- his puck handling was good last game) have been the best players in the bottom six. Emmerton has played well enough, but he hasn't been able to create many chances. In the last few games Abby and Helm have created more chances than either of the top-2 lines (not counting PP). Abby is first in hits and sixth in shots (below only the top PP line), and Helm is tied for first in plus-minus. These two are playing, the past 5 games, well above their place(s) on the depth chart. I can't think of any other forwards on the team who are doing the same.

Edited by WorkingOvertime, 05 November 2011 - 09:53 AM.

[HelmFan]

I am admittedly biased, but I think Abby and Helm (Homer if you include him too- his puck handling was good last game) have been the best players in the bottom six. Emmerton has played well enough, but he hasn't been able to create many chances. In the last few games Abby and Helm have created more chances than either of the top-2 lines (not counting PP). Abby is first in hits and sixth in shots (below only the top PP line), and Helm is tied for first in plus-minus. These two are playing, the past 5 games, well above their place(s) on the depth chart. I can't think of any other forwards on the team who are doing the same.
[/quote]

I just checked: Helm hasn't been on the ice for an even strength goal against yet.

[eva unit zero]

I can see how you would rank Huds and Z equally- they are both playing well below their potential. IMO the difference between the two players is that Z has still been creating chances (albeit not many), while Hudler hasn't. This isn't a knock on Hudler- he is just not the type of player to lead a line (he is best complimenting skilled players). This is why he looks decent/good with skilled players, and relatively useless with gritty players (Abby and Helm).

I am admittedly biased, but I think Abby and Helm (Homer if you include him too- his puck handling was good last game) have been the best players in the bottom six. Emmerton has played well enough, but he hasn't been able to create many chances. In the last few games Abby and Helm have created more chances than either of the top-2 lines (not counting PP). Abby is first in hits and sixth in shots (below only the top PP line), and Helm is tied for first in plus-minus. These two are playing, the past 5 games, well above their place(s) on the depth chart. I can't think of any other forwards on the team who are doing the same.

This is where ice time and linemates become a factor. Helm creates most of the chances on that line; the other night against Minnesota Abdelkader being out of position turned a sure goal into a non-chance. He got a breakaway shortly after, but he managed to give Harding no trouble. Emmerton has only played two games since the Washington debacle, and has looked decent. He was one of the team's better forwards in the first 5 games.

Abdelkader has been getting insane amounts of ice time; he's played first-line ice time some games. Yet he only has two points. Emmerton has been more of an offensive catalyst; he just doesn't play as much.

I think a lot of people are giving Abs credit for success caused by Helm. People look at the Abs/Helm/Bert line and think "I remember that line, they were noticeable, I rmember seeing them on the ice! They must have made a difference!" No, they just played all thef****** time. More at ES than Filppula/Franzen/Hudler did, even though Flip/Mule/Huds posted 17 points in 4 games.

Abdelkader and Emmerton are about right where I rated them.

Edited by eva unit zero, 05 November 2011 - 11:20 AM.

[WorkingOvertime]

This is where ice time and linemates become a factor. Helm creates most of the chances on that line; the other night against Minnesota Abdelkader being out of position turned a sure goal into a non-chance. He got a breakaway shortly after, but he managed to give Harding no trouble. Emmerton has only played two games since the Washington debacle, and has looked decent. He was one of the team's better forwards in the first 5 games.

Abdelkader has been getting insane amounts of ice time; he's played first-line ice time some games. Yet he only has two points. Emmerton has been more of an offensive catalyst; he just doesn't play as much.

I think a lot of people are giving Abs credit for success caused by Helm. People look at the Abs/Helm/Bert line and think "I remember that line, they were noticeable, I rmember seeing them on the ice! They must have made a difference!" No, they just played all thef****** time. More at ES than Filppula/Franzen/Hudler did, even though Flip/Mule/Huds posted 17 points in 4 games.

Abdelkader and Emmerton are about right where I rated them.

This is all opinion, but I have to disagree on your assessment of Abby and Helm. Many of the chances they get are caused by Abby bringing physicality and Helm then getting the puck. For example, Helm's goal this season was caused by Abby retrieving the puck, fending off a player, and passing to Helm. Similarly, that line has had many chances that begin with Abby's play. Helm and Abby aren't the the type of players that are going to lead the team in scoring (regardless of minutes), but they can lead in plus/minus with solid-D and garbage goals. Abby has more than twice the amount of hits as Helm because he is a great fore-checker- he starts the play. That line is meant to fore-check the other team and create chances. If you don't think that Abby has had as much of an impact (or more) than Helm at ES, I'm not sure we're watching the game the same way.

Also, Abby's only goal this season was the game-winner. I'm not sure why you brought up Abby's break-away, as Helm isn't great at them himself.

[eva unit zero]

This is all opinion, but I have to disagree on your assessment of Abby and Helm. Many of the chances they get are caused by Abby bringing physicality and Helm then getting the puck. For example, Helm's goal this season was caused by Abby retrieving the puck, fending off a player, and passing to Helm. Similarly, that line has had many chances that begin with Abby's play. Helm and Abby aren't the the type of players that are going to lead the team in scoring (regardless of minutes), but they can lead in plus/minus with solid-D and garbage goals. Abby has more than twice the amount of hits as Helm because he is a great fore-checker- he starts the play. That line is meant to fore-check the other team and create chances. If you don't think that Abby has had as much of an impact (or more) than Helm at ES, I'm not sure we're watching the game the same way.

Also, Abby's only goal this season was the game-winner. I'm not sure why you brought up Abby's break-away, as Helm isn't great at them himself.

No, Helm isn't great at them. Neither are great on offense. But Helm is LIGHT YEARS ahead of Abby defensively. Both in what their best performance to date has been, as well as their performance this season.


I brought up Abby's breakaway as an example showing that even when he does create a chance, the likelihood that he will score is not very high compared to other players on the Wings' roster.

[WorkingOvertime]

No, Helm isn't great at them. Neither are great on offense. But Helm is LIGHT YEARS ahead of Abby defensively. Both in what their best performance to date has been, as well as their performance this season.


I brought up Abby's breakaway as an example showing that even when he does create a chance, the likelihood that he will score is not very high compared to other players on the Wings' roster.

You ignored much of my post- do you agree with what you did not comment on?

Helm is light-years better defensively than Abby? Not true. I would say Helm is a bit better, but not by much.

I know you love stats, and I have some more for you. This season, Abby has been on the ice for one more goal for, but also on the ice for for more goals against (playing on the fourth line I assume). Helm has been on the ice for one more PK goal against (a bit more PK time per game though). Last season, Abby let the team in plus-minus. Helm was on the ice for more goals against ES and PK. Helm had more PK time/game, but only 14sec/game less time at ES.

Obviously stats don't tell the whole story. However, IMO Helm gets recognition above his skill level because he stands out with his speed. It's not anything against Helm (I love his play), but his speed tends to have him a bit overrated by many on this forum.

[eva unit zero]

You ignored much of my post- do you agree with what you did not comment on?

Helm is light-years better defensively than Abby? Not true. I would say Helm is a bit better, but not by much.

I know you love stats, and I have some more for you. This season, Abby has been on the ice for one more goal for, but also on the ice for for more goals against (playing on the fourth line I assume). Helm has been on the ice for one more PK goal against (a bit more PK time per game though). Last season, Abby let the team in plus-minus. Helm was on the ice for more goals against ES and PK. Helm had more PK time/game, but only 14sec/game less time at ES.

Obviously stats don't tell the whole story. However, IMO Helm gets recognition above his skill level because he stands out with his speed. It's not anything against Helm (I love his play), but his speed tends to have him a bit overrated by many on this forum.

Last season Abby spent most of the year playing on a different line from Helm; Helm's line was often put up against offensive talent while Abby's wasn't. Abby was also given the chance to play second line center between Franzen and Bertuzzi.

[HelmFan]

This season, I feel neither Helm or Abdelkader have outplayed one another. They're just about equal.

But, last season Helm was far, far better than Abdelkader. It's not even close. I think a closer comparison last year, would be Helm to Filppula.

Abby was the worst player on the team. Hudler and Modano were the most disappointing, but Abdelkader was the hands down worst. He got most of his points playing with Danny Cleary when he was on fire at the beginning of the season. After that, he had one two goal game late in the year. His playoff performance was, well, would any disagree if I said "horrendous"?

Helm, on the hand, was the top Pk'er, second in FO % and helped carry the team when Datsyuk was out. I also not that the line of Draper, Eaves, Helm had been our most consistent performing line the last two years. I remember at the end of the year Helm had some votes for season MVP on this forum, I don't remember the results, but a third liner just getting a vote on this team must tell you something.

It was infuriating to watch Eaves, Miller, and Draper rotate last season while Abdelkader got 2nd line minutes and time on the PP. He was even out there a few times as the extra attacker. I really can not figure Babcock's love affair with this guy.

Anyways, I will get some negs for this post. some people here think very highly of Abs because 1) He is from Michigan 2) he was drafted in the second round 3) he fights,
only one of which is even close to a hockey quality.

However, this season Abdelkader has been much better and is one of the more consistent guys out there. He has definitely stepped it up after a terrible season last year. which, really, is what really matters now.

[Scott Stevens]

I think the REAL problem with the Red Wings is their philosophy and player management. It really has nothing to do with the players.

I'll break it down into a couple of simple points:

1) The Red Wings play a style right now that DEPENDS on the power play and getting more than 5 or 6 chances on the power play each night. Their 5 on 5 play is horrible.

2) The Red Wings have too many small skill players and not enough big guys that can bang.

This has been the problem for the last 3 years now. If you don't have refs giving you power plays every three minutes, you can't win with this type of system. The refs don't give the Wings the power plays in the playoffs, and they are starting not to give them to them in the regular season now. Holland and Babcock really need to pull their heads out and figure out that the team needs more toughness and speed.

Keepers: Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Filppula, Helm, Lidstrom, Kronwall

Must get rid of: Bertuzzi, Holmstrom

Everyone else is expendable.

[Electrophile]

Here's my unbiased assessment of each player. They all get F's, except Jimmy Howard who gets a B, and Nick Lidstrom who gets an A. They're the only players who haven't consistently s*** their pants this season.

[IllinoisRedWingsFan]

How can you only give Cleary and Bert a D???? They deserve an F-

Here's my Grade for everyone except Howard and Lids F-------

Howard gets a B-/B
Lids gets an A-/A