59 replies to this topic

[unsaddleddonald]

You seem a bit obsessed with Cleary.



Again. Oh, by the way, Cleary was our #2 goal-scorer last season. Oh, and do you remember when Zetterberg scored 40 goals in '05-'06 and '07-'08, and over 30 apiece in '06-'07 and '08-'09? Oh, and do you recall that many people call them one of the best pairings in the league? I guess not.

That is the problem right there: Dan Cleary was our #2 goal scorer last year. Cleary should be a depth player, not someone we rely on to score goals......

[Electrophile]

That is the problem right there: Dan Cleary was our #2 goal scorer last year. Cleary should be a depth player, not someone we rely on to score goals......

I'm not sure if you watched many games last season or not, but we were injured. A lot. To the point that many of our regular goal scorers were sidelined for huge chunks of the season. Which would go a long way to explaining why Cleary, someone who you say is merely a "depth player", was our #2 scorer. When that many people above you on the totem pole get knocked off, you find yourself suddenly a lot closer to the top than you otherwise expected.

We should rely on everyone to be able to score a goal or two, for exactly the reason I outlined above. What happens if our key producers get injured again this year? If we can't rely on the Dan Clearys of the team to score goals, we're f***ed.

BTW, it is never a problem when any player on your team scores 30 goals in a season.

[Kira]

I have faith that he will be fine. He's always been notoriously slow at the beginning, and picks up steam as things progress. If he is still rattled by what happened to all his friends a couple months ago, I can understand it. It's hard to pick up the pieces sometimes. He'll be fine...he'll work it all out in his head and heart.

[haroldsnepsts]

I have faith that he will be fine. He's always been notoriously slow at the beginning, and picks up steam as things progress. If he is still rattled by what happened to all his friends a couple months ago, I can understand it. It's hard to pick up the pieces sometimes. He'll be fine...he'll work it all out in his head and heart.

I guess I never really thought of Dats as a particularly slow starter. I'm pretty sure he's started the last few seasons at a point-per-game pace in october.

More than even point production though, he's just looked off. His dekes aren't working. He's had completely uncharacteristic turnovers. Passes aren't as sharp as they were.

Hopefully it's not the wrist or some chronic injury and he gets back to form.

[GMRwings1983]

Yeah, Datsyuk looks like a totally different player than that beast we saw in the playoffs last season.

I guess playing with lazy, unproductive teammates has taken its toll on him.

Edited by GMRwings1983, 09 November 2011 - 12:30 PM.

[wings_fanatic]

Homer is not lazy, and neither is Cleary. The problem is that, while Cleary does still try very hard, he is not working out with Pavs. Pavs is the most talented player on our team, so he should have a guy to pass to that can shoot the puck and score goals. Cleary is NOT THAT GUY.

[unsaddleddonald]

I'm not sure if you watched many games last season or not, but we were injured. A lot. To the point that many of our regular goal scorers were sidelined for huge chunks of the season. Which would go a long way to explaining why Cleary, someone who you say is merely a "depth player", was our #2 scorer. When that many people above you on the totem pole get knocked off, you find yourself suddenly a lot closer to the top than you otherwise expected.

We should rely on everyone to be able to score a goal or two, for exactly the reason I outlined above. What happens if our key producers get injured again this year? If we can't rely on the Dan Clearys of the team to score goals, we're f***ed.

BTW, it is never a problem when any player on your team scores 30 goals in a season.

I definitely understand what the situation was last year and how the goals were distributed as a result. But my observation is look at Dan Cleary, watch the way he plays. He cannot create offense for himself because he has limited agility and his speed has been diminished compared to years past and playing with Pav has netted him all but 2 flukish goals this year. That is just what he is now. I don't think he is a player that can be leaned on when we need a goal (see last years playoffs). For the most part we have only two such players. Three if Franzen is on a roll. Guys with good shots like Filppula, Bert, and Hudler rarely shoot, so you can't lean too heavily on them either.

Look around the league, or even in our own division. Chicago goes at least 4 deep in guys who can score at any time. In addition, they have guys like Bolland and Frolik.

San Jose goes at least 6 deep in guys who can score consistently.

Vancouver goes at least 3 deep with two of them being in the top 5 players in the game.

IMO, we do not have enough consistent firepower. We don't have enough guys who shoot the puck every time its on their stick. Cleary is a great player to have, but his time as a top two liner is past i think.

And like you said, even with injuries considered, it is disheartening that we haven't had a 30 goal scorer in 3 seasons....

Edited by unsaddleddonald, 09 November 2011 - 02:48 PM.

[Jesusberg]

IMO, we do not have enough consistent firepower. We don't have enough guys who shoot the puck every time its on their stick. Cleary is a great player to have, but his time as a top two liner is past i think.

I agree, and disagree with this statement. Cleary should not be counted on to be the firepower on a top line, but in no way does that mean he shouldn't be a top 6 forward. If we were basing it on pure talent, Holmstrom should have never sniffed the top 9. The difference is Homer found a way to build chemistry with line mates an be effective in his role, while Cleary seems to have struggled in that role this season.

One issue early on is the entire line of Z-Dats-Cleary was struggling. All of them looked out of sync and off-base to me. The idea of line with chemistry is there, it just wasn't clicking. I feel like Datsyuk is being kind if hung out to dry right now. Not only does it seem like he still has nagging wrist injuries (assuming) but he's also got Homer and Cleary on his wings. I think he needs a little more than that to work with.

[Konnan511]

Aaron Downey was one of the hardest working, non lazy players i have seen on this team in a while, but put him with Datsyuk and you'll see his numbers drop off as well. Datsyuk has twoAaron Downeys on his line right now. They aren't lazy, they just aren't first line players and that's taking its toll on Pasha.

[Chunkylover]

Some good points have already been stated:

1. Pavel has been a slow starter as has much of the team for the last few seasons. Even with Hossa the chemistry wasn't instant.

2. Not only did he lose a friend in Salei but also Boogaard. I hope his memory of them gives him that added motivation in the playoffs like Vladdy in '98.

3. My input and opinion has been that the "Best Russian" vote and all the highlights from last postseason got him thinking highlight reel plays all the time.

In the third against Colorado he seemed to simplify and actually started shooting and, Whammy! Cleary gets the goal.

He just needs to stop trying to deke everyone in the building and just make the smart play.

Finally, Pavel has never been a lightning fast skater so he may not really be slower than you remember.

[GMRwings1983]

Aaron Downey was one of the hardest working, non lazy players i have seen on this team in a while, but put him with Datsyuk and you'll see his numbers drop off as well. Datsyuk has two Aaron Downeys on his line right now. They aren't lazy, they just aren't first line players and that's taking its toll on Pasha.

I freaking wish.

[toby91_ca]

Some good points have already been stated:

1. Pavel has been a slow starter as has much of the team for the last few seasons. Even with Hossa the chemistry wasn't instant.

2. Not only did he lose a friend in Salei but also Boogaard. I hope his memory of them gives him that added motivation in the playoffs like Vladdy in '98.

3. My input and opinion has been that the "Best Russian" vote and all the highlights from last postseason got him thinking highlight reel plays all the time.

In the third against Colorado he seemed to simplify and actually started shooting and, Whammy! Cleary gets the goal.

He just needs to stop trying to deke everyone in the building and just make the smart play.

Finally, Pavel has never been a lightning fast skater so he may not really be slower than you remember.

In terms of #3, there is no way that should have any impact on a vetern player like Datsyuk.

I really don't like several arguments on here discussing the fact that his linemates suck. If we are talking about a player being one of the best, it shouldn't matter who he plays with, the great players produce regardless.

The only excuse I'll make is that's it's way too early to worry about this, I'm sure things will even out over the year. Sure, he's only on pace for 63pts right now, but if he strings together a couple multi-point games, he back on ppg pace. He's not going to be a 100pt player, anyone who thought that were overestimating.

[NeverForgetMac25]

I freaking wish.

Jesus....how bad do you want Pavel's production to get?

[Konnan511]

Jesus....how bad do you want Pavel's production to get?

This team's performance doesn't matter to him, the only thing he cares about is how many fights this team gets into.

[Electrophile]

This team's performance doesn't matter to him, the only thing he cares about is how many fights this team gets into.

Which is beginning to get annoying. There's more to hockey than fights, and the Red Wings are not going to turn into the Broad Street Bullies from the 1970s. We haven't been that kind of team in decades, and it's time to just suck it up and accept it.

[55fan]

Which is beginning to get annoying. There's more to hockey than fights, and the Red Wings are not going to turn into the Broad Street Bullies from the 1970s. We haven't been that kind of team in decades, and it's time to just suck it up and accept it.

True. I personally wouldn't trade our success for fights, nor would I give up a hot scorer for a fighter, but it's fun to dream about guys like Mac and Probie.

One tough guy can fill a 4th line position and not be a detriment to the team.

Most of what we enforcer slappies dream of is just that- a dream. The rules have changed so that we can't have it any more anyway. But it's fun to reminisce, and to dream.

[GMRwings1983]

This team's performance doesn't matter to him, the only thing he cares about is how many fights this team gets into.

[Electrophile]

Face it. You are to fighting/enforcers what eva is to Hudler.

[barabbas16]

I definitely understand what the situation was last year and how the goals were distributed as a result. But my observation is look at Dan Cleary, watch the way he plays. He cannot create offense for himself because he has limited agility and his speed has been diminished compared to years past and playing with Pav has netted him all but 2 flukish goals this year. That is just what he is now. I don't think he is a player that can be leaned on when we need a goal (see last years playoffs). For the most part we have only two such players. Three if Franzen is on a roll. Guys with good shots like Filppula, Bert, and Hudler rarely shoot, so you can't lean too heavily on them either.

Look around the league, or even in our own division. Chicago goes at least 4 deep in guys who can score at any time. In addition, they have guys like Bolland and Frolik.

San Jose goes at least 6 deep in guys who can score consistently.

Vancouver goes at least 3 deep with two of them being in the top 5 players in the game.

IMO, we do not have enough consistent firepower. We don't have enough guys who shoot the puck every time its on their stick. Cleary is a great player to have, but his time as a top two liner is past i think.

And like you said, even with injuries considered, it is disheartening that we haven't had a 30 goal scorer in 3 seasons....

Wow. So many things I would like to respond to. The grass IS always greener on the other side, isn't it?

If San Jose and Chicago are such high powered offensive teams, why didn't they outscore this 'disheartening' Detroit Red Wings team that hasn't had a 30 goal scorer is SO long? And Vancouver had a whopping ONE more goal than Detroit last year with their '2 out of the top five players in the game' <--- (That was quite a bit of a stretch to say imo). By the way, why are those teams so deep in high level scoring talent? Maybe because those teams had some garbage years and therefore had some really high draft picks to get some of those guys. Where were the Wings during those garbage years for those teams? Oh that's right - they had teams of a caliber to compete for the Cup those years and so they didn't get really high draft picks. Well, shame on them for not sucking for a few years and then drafting the Sedins and Jonathan Toews for us.

And why in the world are Dave Bolland and Michael Frolik being brought up in this discussion when it seems to be bash Dan Cleary day? I mean, correct me if I am wrong please, but I kind of put Dan Cleary at the very LEAST on par with guys like Bolland and Frolik. Why do they get mentioned as additional scoring when Cleary gets run through the mud? And, 'three if Franzen is on a roll'... please. Do you think Franzen is the only streaky scorer in the league? I would argue his scoring ability is comparable to that of Patrick Sharp, who gets included in the "4 deep" of Chicago... or Joe Pavelski or Martin Havlat at this point in his career, as they seemingly get included int he "6 deep" of San Jose.

Also - more of a side note really on something I found humorous in your post....We had a guy that shot the puck a lot a couple of years ago. His name was Mikael Samuelsson, and 98% of LGW hated him with a passion because he shot the puck all the time. I actually thought it was kind of refreshing to have him on the team because, as is being discussed, there are several players who many feel do not shoot the puck nearly enough. But really, if they did that and still weren't scoring and the Wings weren't winning, everyone would complain about them exactly like they did about Samuelsson. Btw, totally not saying that Samulesson is the answer for this team or anything, although I did like the guy.... just found some humour there.

[GMRwings1983]

Face it. You are to fighting/enforcers what eva is to Hudler.

Not really.