141 replies to this topic

[Rick D]

We play Boston on the 25th maybe our Miller will try n take a shot at Lucic??

[b.shanafan14]

Injuries should not have bearing on whether a clean play gets a penalty or a suspension (Kronwall on Havlat). However, in instances like this one, where a play is at the very least stupid and reckless, at its worst cheap and dirty, and considered by all to be a penalty both in the moment and afterwards, the goal of disciplinarians should be to determine the extent to which the player is penalized. More times than not they will decide (correctly) that, while the play was illegal, it was not of an apparent attempt to be 'dirty' or malicious.

In this case, however, the play was unnecessary, borderline cheap on a protected player (a goaltender), and moreover, a player whose talents and position as the franchise goaltender for his team, more than any in the league decide the success or failure of that teams season or beyond. Put it this way: Crosby received his concussion on two plays, one not yet penalized, the final one a seemingly harmless hit. Those were in the bounds of the rules on a skater used to taking hits. People called for suspensions post-injury on even the initial hit. He has been out for the better part of a whole season, and he only plays half to a third of each game.

Miller on the other hand was hit without reason to expect it, outside the bounds of the rules. He plays more than 99.9% of the league's players (even among goaltenders), sixty minutes minutes per game, 65-70 games a year. Concussions (and yes, the NHL's definition of concussions in particular) can happen subtly and linger for months. Lets say at the very least Miller misses 2-3 games with some lingering affects thereafter, that puts 4-6 points in jeopardy for the Sabres plus any diminished performance afterward. How many points separated the 6th best team in each conference from the 10th best team last season?

The Bruins can survive losing Lucic for even 10 games (though 3-5 is probably more appropriate) far better than the Sabres could losing Miller for 3. Set a precedent now, save the league in the long run. Stupid (cheap), unnecessary play ends in injury to a goaltender? Take a seat.

And not to use this as an argument against those who think there should be no suspension, or even those (shockingly enough) who think Miller should shoulder half or more of the blame, but if Howard left the crease, cleared a puck, and then afterwards was bulldozed by a goon like Lucic (completely avoidable), this board would be calling for blood. And Howard is a much sturdier guy the Ryan Miller (210lbs. vs. 175 lbs.).

[SpiritFan]

My thought is this... are goalies over-protected? Sure. BUT that is the standard & that is the way it is. EVERYONE knows this! So knowing full well that you can not take out a goalie like that, I have to side with Miller & Ruff and say that the Lucic hit was a bad hit. I think the ref's got it right, a 2 minute minor, that's all it should have been, end of story. Was Miller wrong to go off to the reporters about it? No way. It's good to hear someone speak their mind. It was good to see Lucic keep his elbow down, and he did not target the head. If it was a position player, it would have been an excellent open ice hit that made highlights all over the place, praising Lucic.

[rrasco]

My thought is this... are goalies over-protected? Sure. BUT that is the standard & that is the way it is. EVERYONE knows this! So knowing full well that you can not take out a goalie like that, I have to side with Miller & Ruff and say that the Lucic hit was a bad hit. I think the ref's got it right, a 2 minute minor, that's all it should have been, end of story. Was Miller wrong to go off to the reporters about it? No way. It's good to hear someone speak their mind. It was good to see Lucic keep his elbow down, and he did not target the head. If it was a position player, it would have been an excellent open ice hit that made highlights all over the place, praising Lucic.

Yeah, but it wasn't. If this was a skater we wouldn't be having this discussion at all.

[GMRwings1983]

Yeah - just made the change to take you off...I needed to do it a long time ago...Sorry.


EDIT - and btw - it's me that needs to apologise to you...Those comments I made a few years ago regarding your personal life were way outta line, immature, downright nasty, and not cool on my part.

So Steve - I apologise for making them

You still haven't apologized to me for what you said about Lilja.

[F.Michael]

You still haven't apologized to me for what you said about Lilja.

About you being chained-up "gimp" style in Lilja's basement



In all seriousness - the comments I made in a general discussion thread towards Shoreline was a major douchebag move on my behalf, and was totally uncalled for.

[hooon]

Its amazing how many folks in this thread either don't understand or refuse to acknowledge the rules regarding goalies in the NHL.

I can't believe anyone here is defending Lucic.

And claiming that Miller is faking it is one of the dumbest things I've ever read online, congrats.

Edited by hooon, 14 November 2011 - 12:58 PM.

[haroldsnepsts]

i love miller, but i'm glad lucic hit him. if you're going to leave the crease and play the puck, then i consider you a skater.

The thing is, the league doesn't.


Rule 69.4

A goalkeeper is not “fair game” just because he is outside the goal crease. The appropriate penalty should be assessed in every case where an attacking player makes unnecessary contact with the goalkeeper. However, incidental contact will be permitted when the goalkeeper is in the act of playing the puck outside his goal crease provided the attacking player has made a reasonable effort to avoid such unnecessary contact.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=26480

Lucic made no effort to avoid contact with Miller and pretty clearly threw his body into him.

And if you love Miller, I'm guessing you're not too happy about the concussion he has as a result of the illegal hit. And it's his second one in 8 months, which is even worse news.

Edited by haroldsnepsts, 14 November 2011 - 01:05 PM.

[esteef]

Gee and I just can't figure out why other teams take runs at Bruins players like Savard and Horton?

esteef

[Krystal]

No Suspension for Lucic

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=601357

TORONTO -- After a thorough review of the play, including a formal disciplinary hearing Monday, Brendan Shanahan, NHL Senior Vice President of Player Safety and Hockey Operations, has decided against any further discipline to Boston forward Milan Lucic for his hit on Buffalo goalie Ryan Miller in Saturday's game at TD Garden.

Shanahan held a hearing with Lucic via conference call because he had specific questions he wanted to ask before making a determination on potential supplemental discipline.

"I had the hearing because I did make an initial assessment of the play as I do with all plays, but I did have some questions for Milan and I wanted to hear directly from him," Shanahan told NHL.com. "They were regarding his intent; at what point did he know there was going to be a collision; and whether or not he felt he had the time to avoid the collision. I was satisfied with his answers."

Shanahan said the minor penalty for charging was the proper call in this case because it follows Rule 42.1, which reads "a goalkeeper is not fair game just because he is outside the goal crease area."

"The minor penalty called on the ice was the correct call," Shanahan said. "And, while it's unfortunate that Miller was hurt I saw nothing egregious about this hit that would elevate it to supplemental discipline."

[Crashnburnluder]

No suspension...

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=601357


I love the headline the best....

"Shanahan cites lack of intent in not suspending Lucic"

wtf lol

[haroldsnepsts]

Wow. Lack of intent?

Let's see, Lucic made no effort at all to avoid Miller, who was on a pretty straight path and not moving quickly. Then he follows through on his check when contact is made. That's lack of intent?

Maybe the hit wasn't suspension-worthy, but to say it was a lack of intent is a load of crap. You have 1) an intentional hit on a goaltender, who by the rules is not fair game 2) that led to a concussion of that player 3) by a player who has been suspended in the past.

Sorry. This isn't the same level of punishment we saw from Shanny in the preseason and early in the season.

The wheel of justice is starting to spin a little...

Edited by haroldsnepsts, 14 November 2011 - 04:11 PM.

[Shoreline]

I don't understand the outrage about the lack of suspension.

I can see where the charging call was made, even though I don't like it, but it was a shoulder hit, not a head shot, not a blind side hit, not any of these nitpicky ticky tack penalty du jour the NHL is confusingly trying to enforce. Lucic simply tried for the puck and braced himself to deliver a check to Miller. I doubt it was accidental, which is why it was a penalty, but it's not so bad nor such an intent to injure that it warrants a suspension just because Miller's helmet flew off and now it turns out he has a concussion. I don't think there's any sense to amplifying a punishment just because of outrage.

Edited by Shoreline, 14 November 2011 - 04:42 PM.

[jollymania]

Lack if intent to injure*. There was no intent to injure there.

[haroldsnepsts]

I don't understand the outrage about the lack of suspension.

I can see where the charging call was made, even though I don't like it, but it was a shoulder hit, not a head shot, not a blind side hit, not any of these nitpicky ticky tack penalty du jour the NHL is confusingly trying to enforce. Lucic simply tried for the puck and braced himself to deliver a check to Miller. I doubt it was accidental, which is why it was a penalty, but it's not so bad nor such an intent to injure that it warrants a suspension just because Miller's helmet flew off and now it turns out he has a concussion. I don't think there's any sense to amplifying a punishment just because of outrage.

Has there really been a lot of outrage in this thread? To me it reads mostly as confusion.

As I said in my post, I think an argument can be made that it didn't warrant a suspension. But for Shanny to say it's due to lack of intent doesn't make a lot of sense and is a little surprising based on the standard he was using early in the season.

Goalies are not fair game. It's like if Lucic had lined up a player without the puck, didn't go out of his way to avoid contact, and even followed through on the hit like he did with Miller. He may not have intended to injure that player, but when you intentionally hit a guy who's not legally hittable, it's a grey area at best because the intent is pretty clearly to take a shot at someone you shouldn't.

If he wanted to keep in line with how he has been giving out punishment, honestly I think Shanny should've given a fine to Lucic for intentionally running a goalie and concussing Miller.

Edited by haroldsnepsts, 14 November 2011 - 05:11 PM.

[Red Wings Addict]

Has Shanny not been as generous with the suspensions lately? Just curious.

[Shoreline]

Has there really been a lot of outrage in this thread? To me it reads mostly as confusion.

As I said in my post, I think an argument can be made that it didn't warrant a suspension. But for Shanny to say it's due to lack of intent doesn't make a lot of sense and is a little surprising based on the standard he was using early in the season.

Goalies are not fair game. It's like if Lucic had lined up a player without the puck, didn't go out of his way to avoid contact, and even followed through on the hit like he did with Miller. He may not have intended to injure that player, but when you intentionally hit a guy who's not legally hittable, it's a grey area at best because the intent is pretty clearly to take a shot at someone you shouldn't.

If he wanted to keep in line with how he has been giving out punishment, honestly I think Shanny should've given a fine to Lucic for intentionally running a goalie and concussing Miller.

Outrage yes, statements like wanting the Red Wings to exact retribution for an incident involving other teams, wondering rhetorically why people like Savard get cheap-shotted, calling Lucic trash, I see plenty of outrage. Surprising you don't.

Your analogy though has nothing to do with what occurred.

Goalies are not fair game, the technicality of this wasn't really debated or inferred otherwise.

The charging nature of the penalty was the fact that this was obviously not incidental contact -- the refs had to call that. If it was not a penalty to finish the check on a goalie playing the puck far away from his crease as any other skater playing the puck would be vulnerable to this would have been a non-issue.

It's not anywhere close to an intent to injure call on the ice. It was not a double minor, it was not a major, there was no misconduct, no match penalty, nothing. It isn't just Shanahan that saw it that way. Lucic simply tried to play the puck and when he was too close he decided to just brace himself and deliver a hit.

There's no argument that it's a penalty (if we're arguing by the NHL's rules, my opinion obviously is another issue) but you're not making any sense trying to justify a suspension.

Edited by Shoreline, 14 November 2011 - 05:25 PM.

[newfy]

Shanny gives Macarthur 3 games or whatever it was for his tiny little bump on Abdelkader but a guy running a goalie in the head (hands came up) doesnt even warrant a fine?


Shanny did learn from Campbell I guess eh

[Crashnburnluder]

Okay, if everyone is saying it wasn't intent to injure, then what was it??? He clearly wasn't tryIng to separate the man from the puck (it was already gone), you don't protect your self by throwing all 240 so lbs at Miller when the picks heading to the corner. Then follow through with ur hands. I won't even point out the fact he was laughing about it. Fact is Lucic tried to hit a player, that legally isnt allowed to be hit, and didn't have the puck, while receiving a charging penalty. Its either that or he was trying to avoid hitting him all together and 200+ lucic was trying to protect him self from a goalie who was standing still and defensiveness???

Lucic saw his chance to take a shot at Miller and he did. This isn't whether u feel like goalies should be fair game outside the crease because that isn't in the rules. He CAN'T be hit.

This is also why I had a problem with no call on Thomad for flattening Sedin in the crease. The goalies aren't allowed to be hot, they shouldn't be able to hit back. If thst is legal Hasek flipping Gabby is legal, atleast Hasek attempted at the puck.

These are NHL players they know what they are doing he ran over miller with no other intent but to take him out. If you disagree please explain to me your side and don't just neg me, id love to hear u out...

[Shoreline]

Okay, if everyone is saying it wasn't intent to injure, then what was it??? He clearly wasn't tryIng to separate the man from the puck (it was already gone), you don't protect your self by throwing all 240 so lbs at Miller when the picks heading to the corner. Then follow through with ur hands. I won't even point out the fact he was laughing about it. Fact is Lucic tried to hit a player, that legally isnt allowed to be hit, and didn't have the puck, while receiving a charging penalty. Its either that or he was trying to avoid hitting him all together and 200+ lucic was trying to protect him self from a goalie who was standing still and defensiveness???

Lucic saw his chance to take a shot at Miller and he did. This isn't whether u feel like goalies should be fair game outside the crease because that isn't in the rules. He CAN'T be hit.

This is also why I had a problem with no call on Thomad for flattening Sedin in the crease. The goalies aren't allowed to be hot, they shouldn't be able to hit back. If thst is legal Hasek flipping Gabby is legal, atleast Hasek attempted at the puck.

These are NHL players they know what they are doing he ran over miller with no other intent but to take him out. If you disagree please explain to me your side and don't just neg me, id love to hear u out...

So the latest conspiracy is that Lucic intended to take Miller out..

I've seen goalies hit behind the net countless times when playing the puck. If they get bowled over, in my opinion it's their fault, the rules often disagree with me here, but still, I don't think you quite understand what any levels of intent are.

First is the situation behind the play. They were going for the puck. Lucic braced himself and made the hit. The only reason this is even a penalty is because contact occurred and Lucic made no effort whatsoever to get out of the way.

Second, intent to injure, might wanna re-watch the Flames/Wings series in the 2004 playoffs of Ville Niemenen skating into the crease and elbowing Curtis Joseph in the head. That is an intent to injure. This hit with Lucic on Miller.. give me an effing break.

Edited by Shoreline, 14 November 2011 - 06:28 PM.