Do They Deserve It?

[Scott Stevens 44]

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8460743#&navid=nhl-keymatch

14 games, 1 goal and 4 assists for Tomas Holmstrom.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8460743#&navid=nhl-keymatch

11 games, 1 goal and 2 assists for Todd Bertuzzi.

I can't believe people will post "What's wrong with Datsyuk" and "What's up with Zetterberg" threads all day long and leave these two WASTES OF SPACE alone. Bertuzzi and Holmstrom are the biggest problem cases on the Red Wings right now, and imo, are keeping the team from developing the players they will need to make a run in this year's playoff. They are both 5-7 years past their primes, and 2-3 years past their effectiveness limit. Why is it that these two guys, who can't open up a square inch of ice, consistently see time with our big guns and drag them down, but a guy like Helm who can open up the whole rink can't sniff a shift with Hank? To me, this is the biggest problem with the Red Wings. The GM has invested in two guys who skate like they're on one leg, and the coach isn't willing to put them in the stands. "But Homer can't be effective without a top line center." HE ISN'T EFFECTIVE PERIOD. The Red Wings need to stop pretending it's 2002. Pavel and Hank need SPEED. They aren't 21 and 23 anymore. Get them some guys who can skate and open up the ice, already.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

People have been leaving Bertuzzi alone? What threads have you been reading??

Datsyuk and Zetterberg are the teams two star players and get almost 20 minutes of ice time a night. Of course the expectations are higher on them than Bert and Holmstrom.

Though I think you're barking up the wrong tree with Homer. He only plays 13 minutes a night, but has been among the better guys on the ice. Unlike many of the forwards this season, Homer goes to the tough areas of the ice, wins puck battles in the corners, and goes to the net. Obviously his skill set is limited, but it's probably not a coincidence that he hasn't been sitting out as much as Babcock made it sound like he would at the start of the season.

Also, Homer only had 26 points in 2002, so that's an odd year for you to pick. But Homer's been a pretty consistent 40 point guy most seasons.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love for the Wings to have a pure goalscorer on the top line, preferably one with speed. But of the current problems with this team, I wouldn't put Holmstrom in the top ten.

As for Helm, he can open up the whole rink with his speed, but he has hands that are marginally better than Draper's.

Edited November 18, 2011 by haroldsnepsts

[VM1138 1,921]

I guess no one is bitching about Homer because he's not really doing anything wrong. 5 points seems pretty reasonable. Sure, he's put up better, but he's not a kid anymore, he's not hogging up cap space, he's not being forced into positions he can't play. When he does play he's still effective. Not as effective in front of the net anymore because of the refs, but he's not hurting the team any.

Bertuzzi started off great and only drifted off when the team took a leap off the diving board into the deep end of the pool.

[Hockeymom1960 5,107]

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8460743#&navid=nhl-keymatch

14 games, 1 goal and 4 assists for Tomas Holmstrom.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8460743#&navid=nhl-keymatch

11 games, 1 goal and 2 assists for Todd Bertuzzi.

I can't believe people will post "What's wrong with Datsyuk" and "What's up with Zetterberg" threads all day long and leave these two WASTES OF SPACE alone. Bertuzzi and Holmstrom are the biggest problem cases on the Red Wings right now, and imo, are keeping the team from developing the players they will need to make a run in this year's playoff. They are both 5-7 years past their primes, and 2-3 years past their effectiveness limit. Why is it that these two guys, who can't open up a square inch of ice, consistently see time with our big guns and drag them down, but a guy like Helm who can open up the whole rink can't sniff a shift with Hank? To me, this is the biggest problem with the Red Wings. The GM has invested in two guys who skate like they're on one leg, and the coach isn't willing to put them in the stands. "But Homer can't be effective without a top line center." HE ISN'T EFFECTIVE PERIOD. The Red Wings need to stop pretending it's 2002. Pavel and Hank need SPEED. They aren't 21 and 23 anymore. Get them some guys who can skate and open up the ice, already.

Wow, this thread is a waste of space

[Guest Crymson]

Wow, this thread is a waste of space

Pretty much.

[LeftWinger 4,951]

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8460743#&navid=nhl-keymatch

14 games, 1 goal and 4 assists for Tomas Holmstrom.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8460743#&navid=nhl-keymatch

11 games, 1 goal and 2 assists for Todd Bertuzzi.

I can't believe people will post "What's wrong with Datsyuk" and "What's up with Zetterberg" threads all day long and leave these two WASTES OF SPACE alone. Bertuzzi and Holmstrom are the biggest problem cases on the Red Wings right now, and imo, are keeping the team from developing the players they will need to make a run in this year's playoff. They are both 5-7 years past their primes, and 2-3 years past their effectiveness limit. Why is it that these two guys, who can't open up a square inch of ice, consistently see time with our big guns and drag them down, but a guy like Helm who can open up the whole rink can't sniff a shift with Hank? To me, this is the biggest problem with the Red Wings. The GM has invested in two guys who skate like they're on one leg, and the coach isn't willing to put them in the stands. "But Homer can't be effective without a top line center." HE ISN'T EFFECTIVE PERIOD. The Red Wings need to stop pretending it's 2002. Pavel and Hank need SPEED. They aren't 21 and 23 anymore. Get them some guys who can skate and open up the ice, already.

...so what do you propose to do with them? You can't waive them, they cannot retire because if they did, their salary would still count against the cap, you know you cannot trade them, ya, sit them, but then you are wasting their cap hit in the press box, plus your roster is full, so unless they go on LTIR you cannot sit them and play a youngster... so, like them or not, they are here for the reminder of their contract, and then, they will most likely be gone...

[Wingznut 14]

Another thing with Homer, is that he is more than his point totals. Because of his solid play in front of the net, others (such as the d-men) are getting pucks past the goalie. Without Homer creating chaos in there, those goals aren't happening.

[Scott Stevens 44]

...so what do you propose to do with them? You can't waive them, they cannot retire because if they did, their salary would still count against the cap, you know you cannot trade them, ya, sit them, but then you are wasting their cap hit in the press box, plus your roster is full, so unless they go on LTIR you cannot sit them and play a youngster... so, like them or not, they are here for the reminder of their contract, and then, they will most likely be gone...

This is a good point. And I'm glad you recognize that it is SOMEONE ELSE'S fault that the stars on our team are struggling instead of the players. I don't blame Holmstrom and Bertuzzi for being old and slow, and I don't blame Hank and Dats for not scoring with old and slow line-mates. I blame the management of the organization. Holland and Babcock need to learn when to sit people in the stands and chew up a sunk cost. Holmstrom and Bertuzzi are playing this year when they should be sitting or playing somewhere else.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

These are all problems which could have been addressed in the offseason.

Our secondary scoring has been inconsistent the last few seasons, and we have aging forwards like Bertuzzi and Homer who were only headed downhill. Likewise, Cleary, Hudler and Franzen are known to be streaky players.

Holland did nothing about it, really. We have a few younger forwards like Nyquist, Brunnstrom and Mursak, but it doesn't seem like they're going to be top 6 forwards anytime soon.

This is basically the same forward group we had the last few years, only older. No reason to think we're magically going to be more consistent in our secondary scoring.

[wings_fanatic 677]

This is an unfair assessment. Yes Bertuzzi was not playing well, but Homer has been one of the best players this year for the Wings, giving it all every shift and doing his responsibilities. We can all argue that Pavs and Hank are to blame because they get so much ice time but are not playing well and not getting points, and because of the fact they arent producing, those around them are not producing. On the other end of that, we can argue that the players around Pavs and Hank are not playing well, which is why they are not getting as many points. This leads me to believe that the entire top 6 forwards are in some way to blame- - they are all in it together. Right from Mike Babcock down to all top 6 forwards, they all have to do a better job and they all know it. I think by the time the Wings finish this road trip, Babs will have things in better order with the top 6, which will make the Wings stronger every game (no effin games off).

My point is that we cannot pin- point faults to one or two players... its the entire top 6 (which Cleary should have no business being in at this point)

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029]

Agreed.

I'm hoping as we get closer to the trade deadline Holland makes a move, or two, and makes use of the cushion we have against the cap.

Cleary and Bertuzzi, in particular, have looked god awful. I'd like to see us get younger at the deadline as well as in the offseason.

[Hockeymom1960 5,107]

Hmmm look who just scored against the Sharks

[Lonewuhf 47]

Cleary and Bertuzzi, in particular, have looked god awful. I'd like to see us get younger at the deadline as well as in the offseason.

Cleary not only doesn't improve the line he's on, he just downright hurts it. He gives up the puck too often, his passing is terrible, and all he does when entering the zone is shoot it in then lose it. I don't understand why he's still getting top 6 minutes.

Also, on Homer, yeah, he may be giving it his all, but that doesn't mean he deserves top play time. Helm gives his all every game but he's not put on the top line. Yeah, he sits in front of the net, but if you put someone skilled there, we shouldn't even need an in front of the net presence. Not very many teams use players in front of the net because they simply put players who can score on the line. I realize we don't have those players right now, and like someone said above, it's the management's fault for not acquiring them.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

After scoring the first goal of the season, Bertuzzi has done squat and just seems to be the guy that takes at least 1 WTF penalty every game. When he gets healthy again he needs to get back in, but he hasn't done anything to justify top line minutes immediately.

Holmstrom at least busts his rear end even if he's not producing on the stat sheet.

[Steve Sample 31]

I thought Bert played pretty good tonight. Made some space for Pavel(2goals) Bert should probably be playing on the Abby Helm line but his size is needed on Pav's line because Mule dosen't use his size.

[Lonewuhf 47]

Side note, anyone else notice that the game after Cleary was taken off the 1st line and put on the 2nd the 2nd line started sucking and the first is doing well? Coincidence?

[Yzermania 156]

I thought Bert looked great tonight. He is one of the best behind the net and in the corners with the puck. I find myself cringing every time cleary makes a play though.

[Guest Crymson]

Side note, anyone else notice that the game after Cleary was taken off the 1st line and put on the 2nd the 2nd line started sucking and the first is doing well? Coincidence?

You neglect to mention that he was swapped with Franzen. The latter is the team's best goal-scoring forward, and he's a big body. Cleary is not as good as Franzen. Nobody is disputing this. Swapping a better player out for a player who is not as good will make a line perform with lesser efficiency. Case closed.

[Scott Stevens 44]

Would anyone be UNhappy if the Red Wings replaced Holmstrom and Bertuzzi with Selanne and Parise?

[Lonewuhf 47]

You neglect to mention that he was swapped with Franzen. The latter is the team's best goal-scoring forward, and he's a big body. Cleary is not as good as Franzen. Nobody is disputing this. Swapping a better player out for a player who is not as good will make a line perform with lesser efficiency. Case closed.

Actually no, Cleary just makes whichever line he's on worse. If you're watching the games I'm not sure how you could dispute it.

[Barrie 900]

I'd agree with Bertuzzi, but not Holmstrom. Holmstrom deserves to retire a Red Wing and go out on his own terms. As people already mentioned, he only plays 13 minutes a night, and is playing well. 7 points in 16 games is Homer type production. Average that out to 70 games, that's 31 points. Decent for a guy who's 38, and the Wings had that losing streak, so everyone's numbers are a little down.

I've never been a big fan of Bertuzzi, I think he takes to many dumb penalties. A younger guy could have his ice time.

[eva unit zero 271]

Actually no, Cleary just makes whichever line he's on worse. If you're watching the games I'm not sure how you could dispute it.

Based on your logic, Jiri Hudler is the best player on the team. The Huds/Dats/Cleary line was the best line to start, but it was broken up because the second line didn't look good; he was switched with Z. So then, the Filppula/Franzen/Hudler line went on a tear. Washington game, Hudler was taken off that line. He gets moved to Helm's line, and suddenly everyone is talking about how great that line is doing, but Flip and Franzen aren't scoring anymore. Case closed.

[Guest Crymson]

Actually no, Cleary just makes whichever line he's on worse. If you're watching the games I'm not sure how you could dispute it.

I think you're a little obsessed.

[Lonewuhf 47]

I think you're a little obsessed.

Me? Cleary to you is like Hudler is to Eva...

Cleary has been terrible, he's failing passes, he's failing fighting for the puck, he's failing on his dump ins, he's failing on scoring. The only thing he's not failing at is playing on his ass.

Based on your logic, Jiri Hudler is the best player on the team. The Huds/Dats/Cleary line was the best line to start, but it was broken up because the second line didn't look good; he was switched with Z. So then, the Filppula/Franzen/Hudler line went on a tear. Washington game, Hudler was taken off that line. He gets moved to Helm's line, and suddenly everyone is talking about how great that line is doing, but Flip and Franzen aren't scoring anymore. Case closed.

Of course you turn this into a Hudler thread. I will not encourage this with any other response.

For the record, Hudler started on a line with Franzen and Fil, which was the best line. He didn't start with Dats.

Edited November 21, 2011 by Lonewuhf

[Z Winged Dangler 2,082]

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8460743#&navid=nhl-keymatch

14 games, 1 goal and 4 assists for Tomas Holmstrom.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8460743#&navid=nhl-keymatch

11 games, 1 goal and 2 assists for Todd Bertuzzi.

I can't believe people will post "What's wrong with Datsyuk" and "What's up with Zetterberg" threads all day long and leave these two WASTES OF SPACE alone. Bertuzzi and Holmstrom are the biggest problem cases on the Red Wings right now, and imo, are keeping the team from developing the players they will need to make a run in this year's playoff. They are both 5-7 years past their primes, and 2-3 years past their effectiveness limit. Why is it that these two guys, who can't open up a square inch of ice, consistently see time with our big guns and drag them down, but a guy like Helm who can open up the whole rink can't sniff a shift with Hank? To me, this is the biggest problem with the Red Wings. The GM has invested in two guys who skate like they're on one leg, and the coach isn't willing to put them in the stands. "But Homer can't be effective without a top line center." HE ISN'T EFFECTIVE PERIOD. The Red Wings need to stop pretending it's 2002. Pavel and Hank need SPEED. They aren't 21 and 23 anymore. Get them some guys who can skate and open up the ice, already.

i'm not gonna hate on bertuzzi aside from all his unnecessary giveaways, but homer on the other hand... there's a difference between "role player" and "one-dimensional" and homer is the latter. i was the one that started the "what's up with Zetterberg" topic purely cause i haven't been able to watch hockey cause i'm not in North America where i can watch it. but with Zetterberg, you expect him to produce around a point a game pace. i've been waiting for homer to hang them up for years. taking places of departed players like leino who can actually hack top 6 play, but was a terrible fit on the bottom 6. tatar and nyquist should definitely be on this team next year. i'm just glad guys like rafalski retired when they realized they couldn't produce at the level they should be at cause they're too beaten up from injuries. homer will play out the rest of the year and he needs to retire in the offseason. i really hope babcock plays "the best players" in the playoffs, and if that means that our 3rd line is tatar/nyquist/mursak to help the wings win the cup, then so be it.