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Do They Deserve It?


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#21 Lonewuhf

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 01:46 AM

You neglect to mention that he was swapped with Franzen. The latter is the team's best goal-scoring forward, and he's a big body. Cleary is not as good as Franzen. Nobody is disputing this. Swapping a better player out for a player who is not as good will make a line perform with lesser efficiency. Case closed.


Actually no, Cleary just makes whichever line he's on worse. If you're watching the games I'm not sure how you could dispute it.

#22 Barrie

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 12:32 PM

I'd agree with Bertuzzi, but not Holmstrom. Holmstrom deserves to retire a Red Wing and go out on his own terms. As people already mentioned, he only plays 13 minutes a night, and is playing well. 7 points in 16 games is Homer type production. Average that out to 70 games, that's 31 points. Decent for a guy who's 38, and the Wings had that losing streak, so everyone's numbers are a little down.

I've never been a big fan of Bertuzzi, I think he takes to many dumb penalties. A younger guy could have his ice time.
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#23 eva unit zero

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 07:51 PM

Actually no, Cleary just makes whichever line he's on worse. If you're watching the games I'm not sure how you could dispute it.


Based on your logic, Jiri Hudler is the best player on the team. The Huds/Dats/Cleary line was the best line to start, but it was broken up because the second line didn't look good; he was switched with Z. So then, the Filppula/Franzen/Hudler line went on a tear. Washington game, Hudler was taken off that line. He gets moved to Helm's line, and suddenly everyone is talking about how great that line is doing, but Flip and Franzen aren't scoring anymore. Case closed.
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#24 Crymson

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 08:02 PM

Actually no, Cleary just makes whichever line he's on worse. If you're watching the games I'm not sure how you could dispute it.


I think you're a little obsessed.

#25 Lonewuhf

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 08:45 PM

I think you're a little obsessed.


Me? Cleary to you is like Hudler is to Eva...

Cleary has been terrible, he's failing passes, he's failing fighting for the puck, he's failing on his dump ins, he's failing on scoring. The only thing he's not failing at is playing on his ass.



Based on your logic, Jiri Hudler is the best player on the team. The Huds/Dats/Cleary line was the best line to start, but it was broken up because the second line didn't look good; he was switched with Z. So then, the Filppula/Franzen/Hudler line went on a tear. Washington game, Hudler was taken off that line. He gets moved to Helm's line, and suddenly everyone is talking about how great that line is doing, but Flip and Franzen aren't scoring anymore. Case closed.



Of course you turn this into a Hudler thread. I will not encourage this with any other response.

For the record, Hudler started on a line with Franzen and Fil, which was the best line. He didn't start with Dats.

Edited by Lonewuhf, 20 November 2011 - 10:14 PM.


#26 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 12:32 AM

http://www.nhl.com/i...id=nhl-keymatch

14 games, 1 goal and 4 assists for Tomas Holmstrom.

http://www.nhl.com/i...id=nhl-keymatch

11 games, 1 goal and 2 assists for Todd Bertuzzi.



I can't believe people will post "What's wrong with Datsyuk" and "What's up with Zetterberg" threads all day long and leave these two WASTES OF SPACE alone. Bertuzzi and Holmstrom are the biggest problem cases on the Red Wings right now, and imo, are keeping the team from developing the players they will need to make a run in this year's playoff. They are both 5-7 years past their primes, and 2-3 years past their effectiveness limit. Why is it that these two guys, who can't open up a square inch of ice, consistently see time with our big guns and drag them down, but a guy like Helm who can open up the whole rink can't sniff a shift with Hank? To me, this is the biggest problem with the Red Wings. The GM has invested in two guys who skate like they're on one leg, and the coach isn't willing to put them in the stands. "But Homer can't be effective without a top line center." HE ISN'T EFFECTIVE PERIOD. The Red Wings need to stop pretending it's 2002. Pavel and Hank need SPEED. They aren't 21 and 23 anymore. Get them some guys who can skate and open up the ice, already.


i'm not gonna hate on bertuzzi aside from all his unnecessary giveaways, but homer on the other hand... there's a difference between "role player" and "one-dimensional" and homer is the latter. i was the one that started the "what's up with Zetterberg" topic purely cause i haven't been able to watch hockey cause i'm not in North America where i can watch it. but with Zetterberg, you expect him to produce around a point a game pace. i've been waiting for homer to hang them up for years. taking places of departed players like leino who can actually hack top 6 play, but was a terrible fit on the bottom 6. tatar and nyquist should definitely be on this team next year. i'm just glad guys like rafalski retired when they realized they couldn't produce at the level they should be at cause they're too beaten up from injuries. homer will play out the rest of the year and he needs to retire in the offseason. i really hope babcock plays "the best players" in the playoffs, and if that means that our 3rd line is tatar/nyquist/mursak to help the wings win the cup, then so be it.

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#27 Buppy

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 02:29 AM

Would anyone be UNhappy if the Red Wings replaced Holmstrom and Bertuzzi with Selanne and Parise?

Anaheim and New Jersey, I suspect.

#28 eva unit zero

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 02:55 AM

Of course you turn this into a Hudler thread. I will not encourage this with any other response.

For the record, Hudler started on a line with Franzen and Fil, which was the best line. He didn't start with Dats.


He started with Dats and Cleary. Early in the second game he was swapped with Z, who was centering Flip and Mule. He proceeded to hand Mule his first goal, and the line would go on a tear.


But Huds' first point was with Datsyuk.


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#29 achildr1

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 07:04 AM

Based on your logic, Jiri Hudler is the best player on the team. The Huds/Dats/Cleary line was the best line to start, but it was broken up because the second line didn't look good; he was switched with Z. So then, the Filppula/Franzen/Hudler line went on a tear. Washington game, Hudler was taken off that line. He gets moved to Helm's line, and suddenly everyone is talking about how great that line is doing, but Flip and Franzen aren't scoring anymore. Case closed.


I'm also not going to try and encourage this to become about Hudler but this was one of the funnier, most blatent Hudler plugs I've seen from Eva yet. Hudler seriosuly needs to get in touch (not physically!) with Eva, they could probably pull a Jeff Finger over on Glen Sather or Darcy Regier.

#30 achildr1

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 08:05 AM

i'm not gonna hate on bertuzzi aside from all his unnecessary giveaways, but homer on the other hand... there's a difference between "role player" and "one-dimensional" and homer is the latter. i was the one that started the "what's up with Zetterberg" topic purely cause i haven't been able to watch hockey cause i'm not in North America where i can watch it. but with Zetterberg, you expect him to produce around a point a game pace. i've been waiting for homer to hang them up for years. taking places of departed players like leino who can actually hack top 6 play, but was a terrible fit on the bottom 6. tatar and nyquist should definitely be on this team next year. i'm just glad guys like rafalski retired when they realized they couldn't produce at the level they should be at cause they're too beaten up from injuries. homer will play out the rest of the year and he needs to retire in the offseason. i really hope babcock plays "the best players" in the playoffs, and if that means that our 3rd line is tatar/nyquist/mursak to help the wings win the cup, then so be it.


I would take Homer over Leino everyday. Leino was lazy and talked crap about us after he left. He was terrible with us and is a little bit different version of Hudler. Which we need like we need more players with the defensive awareness of Jonathan Ericsson. Homer probably plays some of the hardest minutes of anyone in the league and not only survives, he thrives. If he isn't the best in the league at what he does anymore, he's #2. If Leino played 13 minutes a game I seriously doubt he'd match Homer's normal production. He is "one dimensional" but he has always been and although this should probably be his last year, he's fine by me. Dude's got 4 Cup rings for a reason.

I know this will almost certainly ruffle more than a few's feathers, but I can't say I'm super surprised with Zetterberg's play. Zetterberg, while owning a ton of hockey sense, never really stood out to me in a pure skill/self-sustaining point producer sense. Datsyuk does but not Z. He's a great two-way guy but I think the 40 goal, 90 point Z isn't what we should expect from him. I've never felt that if Datsyuk were gone, that Zetterberg could carry the team from an offensive standpoint. Also, he's the Brad Pitt of his country, has a Cup ring, Olympic Gold, Conn Smythe, a Celeb wife, and a lifetime contract. How much motivation does he have to have?

If that's our third line, some serious problems better have arose because that line is greener than a spring pasture. I'm all for playing kids, especially when the veterans float around like they're all on lifetime contracts...but JV teams are for the the Islanders and Oilers, not the Wings.

Edited by achildr1, 21 November 2011 - 08:06 AM.


#31 mmamolo

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 08:26 AM

i'm not gonna hate on bertuzzi aside from all his unnecessary giveaways, but homer on the other hand... there's a difference between "role player" and "one-dimensional" and homer is the latter. i was the one that started the "what's up with Zetterberg" topic purely cause i haven't been able to watch hockey cause i'm not in North America where i can watch it. but with Zetterberg, you expect him to produce around a point a game pace. i've been waiting for homer to hang them up for years. taking places of departed players like leino who can actually hack top 6 play, but was a terrible fit on the bottom 6. tatar and nyquist should definitely be on this team next year. i'm just glad guys like rafalski retired when they realized they couldn't produce at the level they should be at cause they're too beaten up from injuries. homer will play out the rest of the year and he needs to retire in the offseason. i really hope babcock plays "the best players" in the playoffs, and if that means that our 3rd line is tatar/nyquist/mursak to help the wings win the cup, then so be it.

I honestly I don't understand everyone's hatred for Holmstrom. Maybe hatred isn't the right word but I don't get why everyone rags on him so much. Holmstrom has 1 goal, 6 assists, and is a +1 through 17 games. Yeah, we'd all love his goals to be higher but he still creates havoc on the powerplay and still has a ton of worth to this team.

Leino is off to essentially the worst possible start to the season. In 20 games Leino has 2 goals, 3 assists and is a -6. People always talk about how the Wings need to be tougher to play against and then when I read how people don't like that a hard nosed, tough player to play against guy like Holmstrom has 'taken away' a roster spot from someone like Leino, it just blows my mind. I never had nearly the same problem with Leino has a lot of posters here did. I wanted him to succeed and was actualyl glad he did well in Philadelphia. But there's a reason he did as well as he did, because he was insulated with big bodies who created space for him. In Buffalo, a prodominantly smaller team, it's tougher for him. Also, Leino is in the first year of a 6 year, $4.5M per year deal.

I know this will almost certainly ruffle more than a few's feathers, but I can't say I'm super surprised with Zetterberg's play. Zetterberg, while owning a ton of hockey sense, never really stood out to me in a pure skill/self-sustaining point producer sense. Datsyuk does but not Z. He's a great two-way guy but I think the 40 goal, 90 point Z isn't what we should expect from him. I've never felt that if Datsyuk were gone, that Zetterberg could carry the team from an offensive standpoint. Also, he's the Brad Pitt of his country, has a Cup ring, Olympic Gold, Conn Smythe, a Celeb wife, and a lifetime contract. How much motivation does he have to have?


I'm sure there are some out there who expect Zetterberg to put up that 40 goal/90 point production but I think the majority of people expect more the 30 goals/75-80 point production. When he's engaged he is capable of being a point per game player.
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#32 Holmstrom96

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 08:48 AM

I'm a huge Holmstrom fan. But I've got to admit, he's simply not effective anymore. He creates too many penalties and called back goals. He's slow. He's got bricks for hands.

While I've always had a special place in my heart for Homer, I'd just rather see a young guy step up that can contribute in front of the net, but also in other ways as well.

As for Bertuzzi, I think he's still a 2nd\3rd line guy. I'd like to see us keep him around for at least this season.



I'd love to see Ericsson go. He sucks. The only thing I like about him is that he's the only one willing to fight for the team, but other than that he is just plain our worst defenseman.

#33 achildr1

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 09:15 AM

I'm sure there are some out there who expect Zetterberg to put up that 40 goal/90 point production but I think the majority of people expect more the 30 goals/75-80 point production. When he's engaged he is capable of being a point per game player.


He's "capable" of 90 points. But I'm starting to wonder if Z's real zone is a bit lower then we are expecting. Maybe he's really a 70 point guy.

#34 Scott Stevens

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 05:46 PM

I'm a huge Holmstrom fan. But I've got to admit, he's simply not effective anymore. He creates too many penalties and called back goals. He's slow. He's got bricks for hands.

While I've always had a special place in my heart for Homer, I'd just rather see a young guy step up that can contribute in front of the net, but also in other ways as well.

As for Bertuzzi, I think he's still a 2nd\3rd line guy. I'd like to see us keep him around for at least this season.



I'd love to see Ericsson go. He sucks. The only thing I like about him is that he's the only one willing to fight for the team, but other than that he is just plain our worst defenseman.



This IS IT!!! I'm not a Holmstrom hater by any means. I just think it's time for him to step down. He's not the player he once was. He doesn't fit in the line-up ANYWHERE 5 on 5, and is not that useful on the PP. I mean, he's on pace for 5-10 goals this year. ANYONE playing 4-5 minutes of power play time with Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and White should be able to score 5-10 goals and 30 points. That's not good. 30-40 goals and 70-80 points is what we should have out of our 1st/2nd line wingers. Franzen is close to that. Holmstrom, Bertuzzi, and Cleary are not. I would like to see the Wings bring in Selanne and Parise, ship out Stuart, and sit Holmstrom and Bertuzzi. Mursak/Miller on rotation on the 4th line.

Parise-Datsyuk-Franzen
Filppula-Zetterberg-Selanne
Cleary-Helm-Hudler
Mursak-Abdelkader-Eaves
Miller/Emmerton

Lidstrom-White
Kronwall-Smith
Ericsson-Kindl
Janik

Howard
Conklin


The Red Wings would KILL with that line-up.

#35 SouthernWingsFan

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 08:09 PM

Bertuzzi's played better since he's come back from injury thankfully. During his first brief stint here before he left for Anaheim, he played some with Franzen and Datsyuk and they had some chemistry and success.

I think the disdain for Holmstrom is just people's way of identifying that it is time for him to hang them up sooner than later. I think the disdain is a bit much, but I get it. I think he's used fine. Still is effective on the powerplay, and is flipped in either a scoring line/4th line as needed (not because of Holmstrom himself, moreso if we need more offense or just a shakeup from a bad streak) while not having a whole lot of minutes. He's still going to give you the effort and hard work pretty much game in and game out.

Since others were mentioned...really don't get the dislike of Cleary on here even though he's underperformed somewhat this season. There's 1 or 2 typical people who rip on Cleary at every chance possible, but I don't take them into effect as they'll always be like "See?! I told you he stinks!" if Cleary goes on a cold stretch like pretty much any player will at some point and then is just silent whenever the time comes that he hits a decent patch of games. I'm just really surprised in general of the dislike towards him across the board it seems (please tell me if I am wrong). As for Hudler being mentioned, sadly predictable. *sigh*

#36 eva unit zero

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 10:48 PM

I would take Homer over Leino everyday. Leino was lazy and talked crap about us after he left. He was terrible with us and is a little bit different version of Hudler.


What Leino has over Hudler is size, speed, salary, and arrogance.


Hudler is the more talented offensive player, the better defensive player, works hard unlike Leino, and is not an arrogant *******.

I know this will almost certainly ruffle more than a few's feathers, but I can't say I'm super surprised with Zetterberg's play. Zetterberg, while owning a ton of hockey sense, never really stood out to me in a pure skill/self-sustaining point producer sense. Datsyuk does but not Z. He's a great two-way guy but I think the 40 goal, 90 point Z isn't what we should expect from him. I've never felt that if Datsyuk were gone, that Zetterberg could carry the team from an offensive standpoint.


Z was ninth in scoring last year with 80 points. He was 18 points ahead of Lidstrom (second largest gap between #1 and #2 on a team, Ovechkin's 20-point gap ahead of Backstrom being first) and he was 21 points ahead of Datsyuk (largest gap between a team's top two scoring forwards). He absolutely carried the team offensively while Datsyuk was out (or did you forget that Dats missed 26 games?) and should have been a Hart finalist last year.

Leino is off to essentially the worst possible start to the season. In 20 games Leino has 2 goals, 3 assists and is a -6. People always talk about how the Wings need to be tougher to play against and then when I read how people don't like that a hard nosed, tough player to play against guy like Holmstrom has 'taken away' a roster spot from someone like Leino, it just blows my mind. I never had nearly the same problem with Leino has a lot of posters here did. I wanted him to succeed and was actualyl glad he did well in Philadelphia. But there's a reason he did as well as he did, because he was insulated with big bodies who created space for him. In Buffalo, a prodominantly smaller team, it's tougher for him. Also, Leino is in the first year of a 6 year, $4.5M per year deal.


Leino succeeded in Philadelphia because he was playing with a top-end center in Danny Briere, and the Eastern Conference is easier for top-line players to put up quality offensive numbers in. His problem in Buffalo is that he was brought in to be "the guy" on his line. Isn't working out so well. I bet they miss Tim Connolly.

I'm sure there are some out there who expect Zetterberg to put up that 40 goal/90 point production but I think the majority of people expect more the 30 goals/75-80 point production. When he's engaged he is capable of being a point per game player.


He's more than capable of it; in the past six seasons he's been PPG or better four times, and was 0.95 the other two.
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#37 Bring Back The Bruise Bros

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 11:41 PM

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Parise
Cleary-Filppula-Franzen
Abdelkader-Helm-Moss
Miller-Mursak-Moen
Nyquist/Emmerton

Suter-Kronwall
White-Gleason
Smith-Ericsson
O'Brien


Lidstrom, Holmstsrom, and Bertuzzi retire. Stuart, Commodore, and Hudler are let go. Parise to Detroit for Tatar, Kindl, and a pick at this year's trade deadline. Nyquist takes a top 6 spot. Mursak takes a 4th line spot. Take a chance on David Moss on a one year contract. Moss is a suburban Detroit native. 5 points in 15 games so far this year. Travis Moen is a defensively responsible veteran who won a Cup with Anaheim in 2007. Adds size and grit to the bottom 6. Grab Suter in free agency to fill Lidstrom's void. Gleason is a suburban Detroit native, and is younger than Stuart. He can join the rush as well as block shots. Shane O'Brien adds size to our blue line and kills penalties, as well as blocks shots.

Edited by Bring Back The Bruise Bros, 21 November 2011 - 11:42 PM.

"Ice hockey is a form of disorderly conduct in which the score is kept."

RIP Bob Probert
RIP Wade Belak
RIP Derek Boogaard
RIP Rick Rypien

#38 Scott Stevens

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 11:50 PM

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Parise
Cleary-Filppula-Franzen
Abdelkader-Helm-Moss
Miller-Mursak-Moen
Nyquist/Emmerton

Suter-Kronwall
White-Gleason
Smith-Ericsson
O'Brien


Lidstrom, Holmstsrom, and Bertuzzi retire. Stuart, Commodore, and Hudler are let go. Parise to Detroit for Tatar, Kindl, and a pick at this year's trade deadline. Nyquist takes a top 6 spot. Mursak takes a 4th line spot. Take a chance on David Moss on a one year contract. Moss is a suburban Detroit native. 5 points in 15 games so far this year. Travis Moen is a defensively responsible veteran who won a Cup with Anaheim in 2007. Adds size and grit to the bottom 6. Grab Suter in free agency to fill Lidstrom's void. Gleason is a suburban Detroit native, and is younger than Stuart. He can join the rush as well as block shots. Shane O'Brien adds size to our blue line and kills penalties, as well as blocks shots.


Woh woh woh woh woh.

There is WAY TOO MUCH going on here. This kind of General Management would be HIDEOUS. Let's start with the first obvious MISTAKE = Letting Lidstrom Go. Not gonna happen. This dude is nails still. Why are they going to let him retire. One more year, 5.5 million. Done. Next thing = Moss and Moen? No way. No value in those two. Wings are better off letting their younger guys fill those spots. Next thing = Why get rid of Kindl? He's good. Lastly, Suter aint going anywhere. Don't get your hopes up on him. Wings have a chance at Parise if they really want him. I don't think they need to give up Kindl, though. Tatar and Picks should work.

#39 Bring Back The Bruise Bros

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 12:00 AM

Woh woh woh woh woh.

There is WAY TOO MUCH going on here. This kind of General Management would be HIDEOUS. Let's start with the first obvious MISTAKE = Letting Lidstrom Go. Not gonna happen. This dude is nails still. Why are they going to let him retire. One more year, 5.5 million. Done. Next thing = Moss and Moen? No way. No value in those two. Wings are better off letting their younger guys fill those spots. Next thing = Why get rid of Kindl? He's good. Lastly, Suter aint going anywhere. Don't get your hopes up on him. Wings have a chance at Parise if they really want him. I don't think they need to give up Kindl, though. Tatar and Picks should work.

Lidstrom will choose when he's ready to hang them up. Management won't. I think he may be leaning towards retirement, but that is pure speculation. Moss and Moen are both relatively cheap, and they have shown they're relatively consistent. We're not getting Selanne, so I don't know why people seem to think that's a possibility. No way Nashville is able to keep Suter and Weber after signing Rinne to that huge deal. Who knows how much New Jersey will want for Parise.

Edited by Bring Back The Bruise Bros, 22 November 2011 - 12:00 AM.

"Ice hockey is a form of disorderly conduct in which the score is kept."

RIP Bob Probert
RIP Wade Belak
RIP Derek Boogaard
RIP Rick Rypien

#40 55fan

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 01:48 PM

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Parise
Cleary-Filppula-Franzen
Abdelkader-Helm-Moss
Miller-Mursak-Moen
Nyquist/Emmerton

Suter-Kronwall
White-Gleason
Smith-Ericsson
O'Brien


Lidstrom, Holmstsrom, and Bertuzzi retire. Stuart, Commodore, and Hudler are let go. Parise to Detroit for Tatar, Kindl, and a pick at this year's trade deadline. Nyquist takes a top 6 spot. Mursak takes a 4th line spot. Take a chance on David Moss on a one year contract. Moss is a suburban Detroit native. 5 points in 15 games so far this year. Travis Moen is a defensively responsible veteran who won a Cup with Anaheim in 2007. Adds size and grit to the bottom 6. Grab Suter in free agency to fill Lidstrom's void. Gleason is a suburban Detroit native, and is younger than Stuart. He can join the rush as well as block shots. Shane O'Brien adds size to our blue line and kills penalties, as well as blocks shots.

Where's Eaves?





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