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#81 Crymson

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 05:11 PM

vancouver
pittsburgh
philly
chicago
boston
detroit


Sure.

sj
tampa
washington
buffalo looks good, la, rangers.


Absolutely nothing proven.

#82 uncle ovipositor

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 08:40 PM

Hello, and welcome to 2011. Gretsky is no longer the greatest hockey player in the world, and Detroit isn't the best team in the league. That they have been in the past doesn't prove anything.

The Wings get significantly more production from their 3rd/4th lines and defense than either of those teams do. If you want the Wings to have a better top-six, a better bottom-six, and a better defensive corps than every other team, then you're going to be disappointed.


Abdelkader/Helm/Bert have the same # of goals as SJ's third line (5), and far fewer than Chicago's (11). Those #s basically hold up over the 4th and D (and the variations of lines), so that statement is not true.

But it doesn't really matter, because the total # of goals is what counts, not which line they come from. The Wings, with 2 more games played than SJ, has exactly the same # of goals scored. With 2 fewer games played than the Hawks, the Wings have 20 fewer goals scored.

I get that you want to support the players who have been so great in the past, and that's great, but it has nothing to do with winning.

Edited by uncle ovipositor, 19 November 2011 - 08:41 PM.


#83 Crymson

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 08:58 PM

Hello, and welcome to 2011. Gretsky is no longer the greatest hockey player in the world, and Detroit isn't the best team in the league. That they have been in the past doesn't prove anything.


Welcome to 2011. Gretzky last played a game of hockey over 12 years ago. The Wings last played in the Stanley Cup finals roughly 2.5 years ago. Whether the Wings are the best team in the league is up for debate, as is the general question of who is the best team in the league.

Abdelkader/Helm/Bert have the same # of goals as SJ's third line (5), and far fewer than Chicago's (11). Those #s basically hold up over the 4th and D (and the variations of lines), so that statement is not true.


Then we've got the advantage in defensive production. Sweet.

But it doesn't really matter, because the total # of goals is what counts, not which line they come from. The Wings, with 2 more games played than SJ, has exactly the same # of goals scored. With 2 fewer games played than the Hawks, the Wings have 20 fewer goals scored.


I think you're forgetting that goals-against also counts. Teams that give up more goals than they score tend to lose games. Yes, the Wings have the same number of goals for as the Sharks, with the latter having two games in hand. However, the Wings have allowed the same number of goals in the Sharks with those two games still in hand. Yes, the Wings have scored 20 less goals than the Hawks (albeit in two less games). However, they have also allowed 17 less goals than the Hawks have.

The issue right now is not that Datsyuk and Zetterberg can't produce, but rather that they're just slumping offensively. However, they're still capable of a high standard of defensive play, as is every other forward save Hudler, Holmstrom and Brunnstrom.

Also of note is that the Wings` number of goals-for is further skewed by the six games in which they could not buy a goal. This was an anomaly. They have proven that they can score in prolific numbers when not out of sync.

And so on and so forth.

I get that you want to support the players who have been so great in the past, and that's great, but it has nothing to do with winning.


...

Edited by Crymson, 19 November 2011 - 09:03 PM.


#84 Heaten

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 10:11 PM

They traded up to get Couture (great active GM'ing), Thornton was a boston draft pick...


They traded their 14th and 44th overall pick for couture. Maybe they could have gotten Couture with their 14th pick. ... who knows. Thornton cost them a 3rd, 17th and a 21st overall picked players. They gave up some assets. Red Wings don't have those kind of assets to give up for an overrated, no-show in the PO, Joe Thornton.

Kenny is doing an amazing job with the assets he has. Do you want the Red Wings to tank for the next 5 years so they can have the top 6 talent as the Sharks and Blackhawks?

Edited by Heaten, 19 November 2011 - 10:12 PM.


#85 uncle ovipositor

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 02:03 AM

Welcome to 2011. Gretzky last played a game of hockey over 12 years ago. The Wings last played in the Stanley Cup finals roughly 2.5 years ago. Whether the Wings are the best team in the league is up for debate, as is the general question of who is the best team in the league.


2.5 years ago is a long, long time. They were old when they won it, and now they're older.

Then we've got the advantage in defensive production. Sweet.


No, the Wings are slightly worse than the Sharks and Hawks. The larger point is that you made up a stat regarding the scoring coming from everyone other than the top 2 lines to try to explain why it didn't matter that the top 6 aren't doing well. I pointed out that this is statistically false.

I think you're forgetting that goals-against also counts.

Goals against only matters if it's consistently smaller than goals for. But what actually matters is wins. Which the Wings are behind both the Sharks and Hawks in. Winning 1 game 12-0 and then losing the next 11 0-1 doesn't make a winning record.

The issue right now is not that Datsyuk and Zetterberg can't produce, but rather that they're just slumping offensively. However, they're still capable of a high standard of defensive play, as is every other forward save Hudler, Holmstrom and Brunnstrom.

Dats is a -4 with 11 points, Z is 0 with 7 points. They are both slumping offensively and defensively.

Also of note is that the Wings` number of goals-for is further skewed by the six games in which they could not buy a goal. This was an anomaly.

What makes you say that it's an anomaly? I'm not convinced that it is. How long would it have to continue before you would be convinced that it isn't an anomaly? For my part I think the Wings still make the playoffs, but not very deep.

They have proven that they can score in prolific numbers when not out of sync.


Have they? This strikes me as magical thinking. I want that to be true, but I don't see the evidence.

#86 Crymson

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 04:31 AM

2.5 years ago is a long, long time. They were old when they won it, and now they're older.


Pavel Datsyuk was almost 30 when the 2008 Cup was won. He's now 32; he's not doing well this season, but he's only six months removed from an amazing playoffs. It's safe to say that he hasn't hit decline. Ditto on the age with Cleary, who is coming off of a career season. Zetterberg was about 28. He's now 31. Not a big difference in terms of physical ability by age. Franzen is 32. Again, not a big difference in physical ability. Lidstrom is 41, but he's shown no signs of aging. Aside from Holmstrom, the rest of the leftovers from that team are fairly young, and, with the exception of Bertuzzi, all of the free-agent pickups have made the team younger.

It seems like you're very intent on selling the Wings short. That's sad.

No, the Wings are slightly worse than the Sharks and Hawks. The larger point is that you made up a stat regarding the scoring coming from everyone other than the top 2 lines to try to explain why it didn't matter that the top 6 aren't doing well. I pointed out that this is statistically false.


Whether or not the Wings are better or worse than the Sharks or Hawks is a matter of opinion (the Hawks, by the way, got brutalized tonight by the Oilers--a team that the Wings recently stepped on--to the tune of nine goals against). Again, I'm sorry for you that you're so intent on selling the Wings short.

Goals against only matters if it's consistently smaller than goals for. But what actually matters is wins. Which the Wings are behind both the Sharks and Hawks in. Winning 1 game 12-0 and then losing the next 11 0-1 doesn't make a winning record.



The Wings have demonstrated that they're capable of dominating play when they're on their game. They had a six-game slump for whatever reason, and that is currently skewing their place in the standings. Fortunately, the season is young.

Again, I'm sorry for you that you're so intent on selling the Wings short.

Dats is a -4 with 11 points, Z is 0 with 7 points. They are both slumping offensively and defensively.


Lack of scoring will affect +/-. Neither of them has shown any real decline in defensive play.

What makes you say that it's an anomaly? I'm not convinced that it is. How long would it have to continue before you would be convinced that it isn't an anomaly? For my part I think the Wings still make the playoffs, but not very deep.


Again, I'm sorry for you that you're so intent on selling the Wings short.

Have they? This strikes me as magical thinking. I want that to be true, but I don't see the evidence.


I guess that four-game winning streak, during which they outscored their opponents 17-4 (if I remember correctly) didn't register on you.

Again, I'm sorry for you that you're so intent on selling the Wings short.

Edited by Crymson, 20 November 2011 - 04:33 AM.


#87 LeftWinger

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 12:15 PM

Crymson, I cannot believe you are enteraining this guy for so long...

...anyway, he says 2.5 years removed from the Stanley Cup is a LONG, LONG Time? Geez, what do you want buddy, Stanley Cups every year? Everyone would love that, but it just doesn't happen. I can think of 25 other teams that wish they were 2.5 years from being in a SCF. Even the last 4 teams to be there probably wish they had 3 Cup appearances in 10 years. I understand, the past has nothing to do with now, but you act like this team has done nothing and is nowhere near winning than the Maple Leafs have been... We all want to win, we all have our opinions on what it takes to do so, but to insinuate that the Wings are nothing because they are only 2.5 years from their last Cup appearance is stupid. If they make the playoffs and still not win the Cup this year, it will be no biggie, they'll win another Cup soon enough, and the more years in between only shows how hard it is to win and makes you appreciate the Championship more. The way you talk, it makes me think you don't appreciate 20 years of playoffs appearances, most President Cups of ANY team, most WCF, SCF appearances AND most Stanley Cups in those same 20 years. Dude, I thought the rest of us were picky...

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#88 eva unit zero

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 12:43 AM

Why do people want to trade Franzen? he's the only forward in the top 6 showing up.

Trade picks / prospects for a big 35 goal scorer, waive Hudler


Yeah, because Fabian Brunnstrom is better to have on the roster than Hudler. Brings more. Even if your only motivation for waiving Hudler is getting a roster spot, waive Bruno; Hudler is better than him at everything except size and skating. Shooting, passing, defense, grinding, hitting, faceoffs, fighting. Hudler's even better at sitting in the press box.

and move Fippula down to center the 3rd for scoring depth.

Jeff Carter wants to be traded, he's a big 35 goal scorer... he even scored over 40 goals a few years ago. He may have character issues, but there are no realistic better options. Devils aren't moving Parise.


Carter isn't coming to Detroit. Avery was the kind of guy the Wings like, but was shipped out because of his character issues. Carter would be great to have, but he will not be a Wing unless he matures big time. Look somewhere else for a 30+ scorer. Out of last season's 30+ scorers, the most realistic ones I see are Grabner, Morrow, Vanek, and Moulson.
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#89 IllinoisRedWingsFan

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 03:07 AM

Carter isn't coming to Detroit. Avery was the kind of guy the Wings like, but was shipped out because of his character issues. Carter would be great to have, but he will not be a Wing unless he matures big time. Look somewhere else for a 30+ scorer. Out of last season's 30+ scorers, the most realistic ones I see are Grabner, Morrow, Vanek, and Moulson.

Even if Carter was traded I can't see Columbus trading him within their own division.





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