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Babcock: "Do we want to be a good team or not?"


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#1 Red Wings Addict

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 03:26 AM

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“We're at the point we got to make a decision what kind of team we want to be and how hard we want to play for 60 minutes and get this looked after, because you can't let this snowball on you,'' Babcock said. “You got to win on the road and you got to win at home.''

"We got to sit down tomorrow, we got to have a discussion as a group."


"Do we want to be a good team or not?" said Babcock, about what will be the subject matter. "Life doesn't just go on good for you. You make a decision it's going to go good for you. You decide for yourself you're going to be successful. You decide for yourself that you're going to make a difference and have a good career. No one just gives you stuff."

"Other teams are trying, too. We have to make some decisions."



From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/a...s#ixzz1e2jmm2Zr

Edited by Red Wings Addict, 18 November 2011 - 03:34 AM.


#2 Aussie_Wing

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 03:37 AM

I like it BUT... we've heard the same thing so many times, just addressed slightly differently. True, the effort is not there seemingly 50% of our games, and that has to change, but I’m not sure we have the personnel anymore. Take tonight for instance, the Sharks really are just too good, too many top 6 players, too much depth. They are bigger, stronger, faster, hungrier. If we could sustain the 1st period effort (minus the SH goal) for 60 minutes, then we might be able to achieve something, but I don’t think this team has it in them anymore.

We'll win a couple of games, and then go on another losing streak and we'll here it again. This team is stale, too comfortable, and sadly the effort we saw tonight has seemingly become acceptable. And our star players (Datsyuk, Zetterberg) need to step up and be accountable for their pathetic performances.

Edited by Aussie_Wing, 18 November 2011 - 03:39 AM.

Ken Holland: Hes (Mursak) a young guy, provides energy, can skate, hes a puck hound.


#3 RusDRW

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 04:24 AM

Same stuff again. Why is he asking??? I think players clearly sent him the message a number of times this season.

In addition, I tend to agree with Aussie_Wing concerning the lack of personnel. From my POV it is now Holland to blame. If you do not draft well (and this is the case with Red Wings) and wouldn't like to give your prospects a chance (Nyquist, Tatar) you need to go to the market and do whatever it takes to improve this team. There are always teams like Phily and Tampa who will trade you Boyle or Richards for spare parts. It does not happen very often but looks like he does not even try to explore these options signing Commodores and Brunnstroms instead.
Sweet. This dude was brought here for one reason, to punch people in the head - every other thing that he can do, other Wings can do better. I like that we have a head-puncher. The league has other, better head-punchers, but this one is ours. Better than nothing. Good work, Kenny!

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#4 stevkrause

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 07:51 AM

I've been annoyed when others jumped to this conclusion too early, but we're coming up on that all knowing 20 game mark and I think we've sene what we are now... I hate to say it, but this team needs a major shake-up... personnel has been too comfortable for too long and I think certain players are becomming complacent....

I still think we're going to see a blockbuster trade at the deadline... at this point, I really just hope it doesn't include Fil, as he's been our best forward this season and short of our bottom 6, he's the only one that's shown tenancity game in and out...

All I have to say about Holland and our off-season:

Here in this thread

Here in this one as well

Here in this one too

and finally

Here


Holland is a damn good GM. period.


#5 unsaddleddonald

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 08:29 AM

The two goal scorers in this game combined for 16 shots (Cleary 9, Kronwall 7). That is good for Cleary, he understands that you have to shoot the puck to score. BUT WE DON'T NEED DAN CLEARY TAKING 9 SHOTS A GAME. Our four top forwards combined for 5 shots (Datsyuk 2, Zetterberg 0, Franzen 1, Filppula 2). I mean....come on. Datsyuk says he's been awful then takes 2 shots?! Zetterberg didn't even have 1. This is like the Twilight Zone. Nothing is making any sense.....

#6 Aussie_Wing

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 08:49 AM

The two goal scorers in this game combined for 16 shots (Cleary 9, Kronwall 7). That is good for Cleary, he understands that you have to shoot the puck to score. BUT WE DON'T NEED DAN CLEARY TAKING 9 SHOTS A GAME. Our four top forwards combined for 5 shots (Datsyuk 2, Zetterberg 0, Franzen 1, Filppula 2). I mean....come on. Datsyuk says he's been awful then takes 2 shots?! Zetterberg didn't even have 1. This is like the Twilight Zone. Nothing is making any sense.....

Good post. Watching Zetterberg out there right now is making me sick. What happened to his strength, to his passing, to his decision making? He looks totally lost out there. He's got to be hurt, because in the past he's normally always firing pucks on net, from anywhere on the ice, but now he's not even at least doing that.

Ken Holland: Hes (Mursak) a young guy, provides energy, can skate, hes a puck hound.


#7 Donaldjr2448

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 09:02 AM

I agree with all the posts above! The team is stale and it just seems were missing something out there, and NO its not Bert ot White. Just all season it seems like the team is flat and lazy at times. I think it may be time to scratch top players. Make them set in the press box and watch the action, the performances by Hank and Pavel have been HORRIBLE! If they are not going to perform, send the home and recall Tatar and Nyquist who will bring it!

The only player on this team that has shown up every single night that he has played is Jimmy Howard, he has bailed this team out waaaayyyy too much this year and he deserves a better effort in front of him. If I were to give grades right now to all the players everyone and I mean everyone would have D's that includes Lidstrom. Howie is the only A on the team right now! Lids has constantly been getting beat on odd man rushes and last night on the 3 on 1 was the only D man back and didn't even bother to take the pass away!

I'm with Babs on this one, we have to decide what type of team we want to be, because right now we look like a team that will be golfing in the second week of April.

#8 stevkrause

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 09:46 AM

Good post. Watching Zetterberg out there right now is making me sick. What happened to his strength, to his passing, to his decision making? He looks totally lost out there. He's got to be hurt, because in the past he's normally always firing pucks on net, from anywhere on the ice, but now he's not even at least doing that.

My thought as well... I think he's hurt, it's the only thing that makes sense to me...

All I have to say about Holland and our off-season:

Here in this thread

Here in this one as well

Here in this one too

and finally

Here


Holland is a damn good GM. period.


#9 mmamolo

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 10:04 AM

I've been holding off on fully being annoyed by this team because the season was still young. As someone noted above we are approaching the 20 game mark. Thanksgiving and the 20 game mark are both right around the corner. 85% of teams not in a playoff spot at those benchmarks don't make it come spring time. Depiste the awful 6 game losing streak last night was the tipping poitn for me. I honestly cannot remember feeling so dejected and honestly embarrassed while watching the Wings.

The breakdowns in their d zone are predictable. Everyone can claim the Wings have been working hard but I don't buy it. Working hard doesn't just mean skating as fast as you can. It means paying attention to detail and being mentally and physically engaged in the game. A lot of players are missing key defensive assignments - stuf, as a hockey player, you learn when you're 12. The first goal last night was absolutely embarrassing. All four players (Howard, Kronwall, Lidstrom, and Datsyuk) made key mistake - most notably Kronwall and Datsyuk. That's four of the Wings' best defensive players being lackadaisical at the worst, deflating time.
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#10 13dangledangle

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 10:13 AM

It's just really wierd to see them not really try, soI agree that it is time to start scratching some top players. They need to make it really sink in how unacceptable it is to bring such lackluster performances to the rink as often as they have been. I don't think anyone here minds seeing them lose a they battled in, it sucks yes but to see the effort still gets you a plus. This season it certainly looks like the "switch" of theirs seems to have blown a fuse.
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#11 13dangledangle

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 10:20 AM

The first goal last night was absolutely embarrassing.



As soon as they scored that one it's safe to say we knew that it was over, embarrassing indeed. Also it's the f%#king Sharks. I hate those guys.
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#12 mmamolo

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 10:25 AM

As soon as they scored that one it's safe to say we knew that it was over, embarrassing indeed. Also it's the f%#king Sharks. I hate those guys.

It's tough to see your top players missed assignments that are so incrdibly basic. People are saying the Wings need a roster shake up and that's fine but to me, there's a huge mental state issue because these guys are just not engaged in the game. Maybe a roster shakeup changes their mental approach but right now this team has the tools, they just aren't using them.
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#13 greenrebellion

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 10:27 AM

I have no idea how this year will turn out, but if we stay mediocre, I imagine next years team looks dramatically different.

We could lose guys like Cleary, Holmstrom, Bertuzzi, Lidstrom, Hudler and bring in a whole new crop of guys including Nyquist and Smith. Should be interesting to see how it all develops.

#14 Hatethedrake!

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 10:37 AM

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From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/a...s#ixzz1e2jmm2Zr



I echo pretty much everything which has been said in this thread. The thing is though, what can we really expect to happen? We have a coach who can't seem to motivate his players. A GM who has seemingly has no inclination in making any real changes to his roster. I think Babs and Kenny are excellent at what they do. However, perhaps like the players, they may also be guilty of being too complacent. Winning does that. They are human. They win and then they lose that fire. The motivation it takes to win. Truth be told, this team has been in a downward spiral since they lost to the Pens in 2009. Even that year with all the talent, they would take nights off and look disinterested. The difference back then was they had the talent level where they could turn it on and win games they had no business winning. Now they do not have that edge in talent. They get outworked and they lose. They win a few games and become content and then crap the bed again. It's frustrating seeing them play like this.

Then I think how spoiled we are as Wings fans. We've seen them win 4 Cups in the past 15 years. They have made the playoffs every year for 2 decades. But it's no secret why we are a .500 team now. We have 3 legit top 6 forwards in Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Franzen. All 3 are having awful years. So who picks up the slack. A poster alluded to the fact that the Sharks have a better top 6 group of forwards than we do. Most of the top teams also have an edge on us in this regard. So we don't match-up. Our once vaunted 3rd and 4th line depth no longer scares anyone. We used to be a feared team to play against. The Sharks even said they enjoyed playing the Red Wings. I would too if I beat them each time I played them.

The Wings are a very predictable team to play against. Our opponents know they will not have to pay a price physically. They know on most nights our power play will not hurt them. They know they can out work our forwards and dmen in the corners. They know that if they get point shots through there will be juicy rebounds to pounce on. They know we will give up odd man rushes for scoring chances. They know our compete level is going to be average. So if a team knows all this, how can they not WANT to play the Red Wings?

The Wings as a team show their cards when they play. You can just see it. It's like they still view themselves the elite of the elite. Like all teams have to bow down to the Red Wings because they are inferior. So we just show up, get our token road goal and 1-0 lead and then that's it. The other team then takes over and looks like the '84 Oilers the rest of the night. Then they lose a game like they did to the Sharks and the post game comments are always the same. We have to do this. We have to do that. We know what do do, we just have to do it.

But they don't do they? And when they do start doing those things, we all smile and say WE KNEW THEY STILL HAD IT IN THEM. I think they do still have it in them but not for long enough. They get too in love with themselves and the pattern starts all over again. It's like the movie Groundhog Day. Holland is Bill Murray. Same team, same day, same result. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result. This is where this team is now. We may be good enough to win enough games to get into the playoffs. But does anyone REALLY think we can go any farther than the second round? With Bertuzzi and Holmstrom as top 6 forwards? Cleary? We have 1 legit scoring line with Dats, Z and Mule. That's if they are playing anything close to their capabilities. The rest of the team are made up of 3rd and 4th line players.

Our D does miss Rafalski like we all knew we would. White has fit in well, I've been happy with his play. Nick has been outstanding as usual but he can't do it all by himself. We need guys like Kronwall, Hudler, Ericsson, Fillpula, Helm, Abdelkader and Cleary to step up but they aren't. Even if Dats, Z and Mule start playing well again, if we don't have proper balance we're not going anywhere anyway.

I know I'm negative here but this is what I see. I want to be positive about this team. I just don't see much reason for optimism right now with this group. They say all the right things but they rarely do it. Losing doesn't seem to bother them. I guess when you know your roster spot is safe no matter how bad you play then why worry right? I'll still watch the games of course and hope they can turn things around and be that team they once were not so long ago. One which played with heart and had great chemistry and fed off each other. But I know this team. They are going through the motions and do not play well enough for long enough to sustain any real momentum. We're a .500 hockey team now. May as well accept it.
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#15 VM1138

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 10:59 AM

I think they're prepping the team for some changes, if Holland can work them out. Plans change, and he probably wants to make a few players feel like they're exposed to trade to light a fire under their asses.

I saw Babs and Lidstrom talking at the end of the 2nd period. I don't want to project my thoughts onto them, but they looked angry and a little bewildered. Seemed very serious, and I don't think I've seen that before. Something serious is going to happen relatively soon.

And I get so damn tired about hearing the toughness argument. We're not getting dominated physically. An enforcer will not help us win games. We need to f****** score.

Edited by VM1138, 18 November 2011 - 11:00 AM.

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#16 wings_fanatic

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 11:16 AM

Babcock is absoultely right... and as I said before, there is only so much he can do as the coach. When you got guys like Zetterberg not doing their job, there is going to be a problem with the wins. Babs has tried a million different line combinations and we still have the same result with not enough effort by certain players. I think Babs has to go back to the basics and put Pavs and Hank together because Hank looks LOST out there. He needs to shoot the puck like he used to and the only way to get him to do that is to put him with Pavs. If I was Babs I would make this change and in doing so, I would tell Zetterberg that if he does not pick his game up, then he will find himself sitting for a game or 2. Here are the lines I want to see:

Zetterberg- Datsyuk- Homer
Franzen- Filpulla- Cleary
Brunnstrom- Helm- Hudler (I LOVED this line last night, I think it has potential)
Eaves- Abs- Miller

Lidstrom- Smith (IMO Smith had a GREAT game last night and is WAY better than Ericson... so when White comes back Ericson should be the one sitting imo)
Kronners- Kindl
Ericson- Stuart

#17 Wing Across The Pond

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 11:55 AM

We should hold try-outs to see which one of us is the best player, and could be at least passable to be possibly a minor leaguer. Then petition and campaign to have that person put on the roster for a week. I know I for one, would do all that I could to block every shot I faced, drive to the net on every break, battle hard in the corners. Hell I'd love this to happen to me, just to go into training, show I had at least a modicum of skill and then say "hell it's not like it could hurt". Then if they ever threw me in, I'd try to embarrass the real NHLers with every shift I had, getting down on the ice to block every shot I had to, or being as physical as my body would let me, and then go out and do it all again next shift. I say this because players seem to forget some of the time, that fans feel this passionately about the team they love. I would have done anything to get even one shift on an NHL roster, and these guys seem to be wasting theirs. I'd just like to embarrass them for their own good.

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#18 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 12:22 PM

As soon as they scored that one it's safe to say we knew that it was over, embarrassing indeed. Also it's the f%#king Sharks. I hate those guys.

That's what's so baffling about this team right now. It's not just lack of scoring, it's incredible brain farts like that by players who normally don't do that. I've watched the replay I don't know how many times trying to figure out what Kronwall was thinking.

Did he seriously think Thornton was going to just play it up the boards from behind the Wings net, so he veers off and leaves him wide open? Then Datsyuk blows right past Pavelski leaving him wide open in the slot. It's jaw-droppingly bad decision making by two very good defensive players.

#19 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 12:27 PM

I think they're prepping the team for some changes, if Holland can work them out. Plans change, and he probably wants to make a few players feel like they're exposed to trade to light a fire under their asses.

I saw Babs and Lidstrom talking at the end of the 2nd period. I don't want to project my thoughts onto them, but they looked angry and a little bewildered. Seemed very serious, and I don't think I've seen that before. Something serious is going to happen relatively soon.

And I get so damn tired about hearing the toughness argument. We're not getting dominated physically. An enforcer will not help us win games. We need to f****** score.

An enforcer won't do anything, but size is definitely a factor. I think the Wings do get dominated physically by the Sharks. They're a big, strong team. On the Vlasic goal for example, Helm just couldn't handle Winchester and got overpowered by him time and time again.

The Wings have a few big men, but the forwards sure don't play like it (Bert and Mule), and the defense is trying to learn to play that way, but still isn't very good at it (Kindl, Ericsson).

Being outsized didn't matter as much in the past because the Wings could outskill the opponent, but they don't have the kind of talent to pull that off anymore apparently.

Edited by haroldsnepsts, 18 November 2011 - 12:28 PM.


#20 GMRwings1983

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Posted 18 November 2011 - 12:45 PM

Good post. Watching Zetterberg out there right now is making me sick. What happened to his strength, to his passing, to his decision making? He looks totally lost out there. He's got to be hurt, because in the past he's normally always firing pucks on net, from anywhere on the ice, but now he's not even at least doing that.



My thought as well... I think he's hurt, it's the only thing that makes sense to me...


As I said in another thread, if he was hurt, they should have sat him by now. He's only getting worse and is hurting the team with his play. He needs some time off if he's hurt.

If he's not hurt, then he just isn't good anymore. At the very least, we'll never get the same Zetterberg that we had several years ago. I just didn't expect this fast a decline. His projected numbers this year are horrible.
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