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A Lot to Consider for Zach Parise


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#21 MacK_Attack

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 02:09 PM

I think the only clear explanation for the Kovalchuk fleecing is that Don Waddell was an awful GM.

#22 Crymson

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 02:11 PM

That's the bigest cop out of argument. No offense, but you can do better than that. That trade was what the market would bare at the time. Or at least the best offer Waddell felt he could get. Excusing it as a relative comparison for your quoted reason is ridiculous.


Waddell said that chose to trade with NJ because of his good working relationship with Lou Lamiorello.

I think the only clear explanation for the Kovalchuk fleecing is that Don Waddell was an awful GM.


He certainly was a horrible GM.

#23 mmamolo

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 02:16 PM

I think the only clear explanation for the Kovalchuk fleecing is that Don Waddell was an awful GM.


True, he was/would be an awful GM. But I think the trade had a lot to do with money as well as return. Here's a quote from NHL.com:

The Atlanta Thrashers dealt their captain, an impending free agent, to the Devils on Thursday night for a package that includes defenseman Johnny Oduya, rookie forward Niclas Bergfors, junior prospect Patrice Cormier and New Jersey's first-round pick in the 2010 NHL Entry Draft.

Defenseman Anssi Salmela, traded by the Devils to the Thrashers last March for Niclas Havelid, will return to New Jersey as part of the deal. The teams will also flip second-round picks.


Obviously GMs are looking for certain pieces in return when trading anyone. But I think the scope of a trade is even further limited by a team's finances. Teams with internal salary caps are probably looking for serviceable players, picks, and green prospects to minimize costs.

Jersey isn't in the greatest financial situation (apparently) so I think it's tough to say what they would want if we were at the deadline with them out of the playoff picture.

Waddell said that chose to trade with NJ because of his good working relationship with Lou Lamiorello.

Even if that is true (I don't remember hearing that but I'll take your word for it) that doesn't mean just because he knew Lamiorello he'd give Kovalchuk away. It also doesn't mean that Waddell got better offers from other teams but turned them down so he could work with Lou. All it implies is that he felt that he could work well with Lou to get a fair deal for his team.
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#24 akustyk

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 02:23 PM

Why wait to make the team better over the offseason when we can do it this season?

you mean: why get royally milked before trade deadline for an UFA, rather than just sign him in the offseason?

I don't recall a single cheap dead-line acquisition since the lockout. every single of the top-5 available players each
year had cost a whopping price, calculated in prospects and 1st rounds. unlike a couple of years ago Wings look
pretty decent with prospects right now, but I don't really see them going for such bold names. We could probably
move some prospects and a 2nd rounder before trade deadline, but that's not going to land us Parise.

#25 Barrie

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 03:09 PM

Given that he's American, it's clear Parise is coming to Toronto. :P

lol. You gotta love all the, "This team is too American" comments from Leaf fans. Who cares, it's entertainment, just win games!
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#26 egroen

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 03:33 PM

I'd be disappointed if Holland did not at least attempt to make a splash at the trade deadline - it could be the last playoff run with Lidstrom.
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#27 mmamolo

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 03:45 PM

I'd be disappointed if Holland did not at least attempt to make a splash at the trade deadline - it could be the last playoff run with Lidstrom.

I agree - even if it's just a rental - for a couple of reasons:

1. As you noted, it could be Lidstrom's last year
2. Showing Nick you're still committed to providing the Wings with a good chance at the cup (assuming they lost) could entice him to stay yet again
3. It would add a new dimension to this team
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#28 MacK_Attack

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 03:48 PM

lol. You gotta love all the, "This team is too American" comments from Leaf fans. Who cares, it's entertainment, just win games!

Seems to be working, so far.

#29 Heaten

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 04:34 PM

I want Parise, but I think the chances of ever getting him is slim to none.

#30 Scott Stevens

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 04:37 PM

Parise has so far not been as good as he was pre-injury. It's important to bear in mind that serious knee injuries can have long-term ramifications on players` performance. Parise might never return to previous form.



This is a good point. Fischer comes to mind. He never skated quite as well in the brief amount of time he was back after the Hartnell incident. Yzerman and Hatcher are also cases of skating ability not ever returning to what it once was after knee surgery. Yzerman compensated and learned how to play the game differently, but SILK used to be a pretty slick skater before he hurt his knee.



#31 brett

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 05:14 PM

Praise isnt going anywhere.

#32 MacK_Attack

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 05:37 PM

Praise isnt going anywhere.

He may not be traded, but I'd be pretty surprised if he re-signs with the Devils.

#33 akustyk

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 05:40 PM

Praise isnt going anywhere.


Praise be to god...

or allah, buddha or whatever... :)

#34 hooon

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 06:26 PM

Trade for Suter then sign Parise in the off-season then win Cup. :thumbup:
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#35 2probert4

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 06:31 PM

He may not be traded, but I'd be pretty surprised if he re-signs with the Devils.


Devils are bankrupt, not sure what will happen with that franchise.

#36 Konnan511

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 06:41 PM

Assuming the deadline is when Parise would be traded (because Jersey would potentially willing to trade him then as they are not willing to trade him now) you wouldn't be giving up 'the future'. Parise value at the deadline as a pending ufa wouldn't necessarily be as high as it would today as the Devils have a shot at the playoffs. Deadlines can be weird though. Some deadlines teams overpay significantly for players and other times not so much. I think back to the Hossa (to Pitt) and Kovalchuk deals as ones where the prices were reasonable.

But I do agree, if the price was way too high then I'd prefer Holland refrain even though that means a ton of posters on this board will start the 'Holland let another one go' type threads


That's a valid point. But I do think that Jersey isn't nearly the same team as they were then either. Offensively it seems like they have more (on paper) today but not having Zajac in the line up burns (for them)


Crappy-Average players last season were getting at least one first round and/or a high tier prospect. An outlier here or there doesn't change anything. The price for Hossa was medium to high at the time because the players given up were thought of at the time to be can't miss prospects and it looked like two top six forwards were going to be given up in the deal. And Kovi was dealt with his deal because of who the GM was dealing him to. It would cost the farm for a potential rental player when we could just get him as an UFA potentially.
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#37 newfy

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 07:05 PM

With Parises age and ability I cant believe people wouldnt want to go for him at the deadline. This team would be a very, very serious contender if they got him.

Yeah deals like Kovalchuk and Hossa seemed high at the time but thats the point. WHen you trade prospect theres never a sure thing.

Tatar, Kindl and a first rounder would probably be close to what it takes to make that deal.

Theres a chance Tatar becomes a producer, but they still arent that high.

Most of the wings prospects wont come to the NHL until around 23. At that age Parise had 2 30 goal seasons, and on the verge of almost hitting 50. Hes one season removed from 40 goals and 80 points and still has probably 8 HIGHLY productive years left in him.

Not all these prospects are going to pan out, should trade some while they have value for a proven commodity, than just hope that they arent the one that pans out

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#38 Konnan511

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 07:09 PM

With Parises age and ability I cant believe people wouldnt want to go for him at the deadline. This team would be a very, very serious contender if they got him.

Yeah deals like Kovalchuk and Hossa seemed high at the time but thats the point. WHen you trade prospect theres never a sure thing.

Tatar, Kindl and a first rounder would probably be close to what it takes to make that deal.

Theres a chance Tatar becomes a producer, but they still arent that high.

Most of the wings prospects wont come to the NHL until around 23. At that age Parise had 2 30 goal seasons, and on the verge of almost hitting 50. Hes one season removed from 40 goals and 80 points and still has probably 8 HIGHLY productive years left in him.

Not all these prospects are going to pan out, should trade some while they have value for a proven commodity, than just hope that they arent the one that pans out

That's a good start, but it would probably take Mursak as well. If all it took was Kindl, Tatar and a first for him, I'd be on board, but that is probably the deal holland would have to through out there just to not get laughed at.
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#39 achildr1

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 06:33 AM

With Parises age and ability I cant believe people wouldnt want to go for him at the deadline. This team would be a very, very serious contender if they got him.

Yeah deals like Kovalchuk and Hossa seemed high at the time but thats the point. WHen you trade prospect theres never a sure thing.

Tatar, Kindl and a first rounder would probably be close to what it takes to make that deal.

Theres a chance Tatar becomes a producer, but they still arent that high.

Most of the wings prospects wont come to the NHL until around 23. At that age Parise had 2 30 goal seasons, and on the verge of almost hitting 50. Hes one season removed from 40 goals and 80 points and still has probably 8 HIGHLY productive years left in him.

Not all these prospects are going to pan out, should trade some while they have value for a proven commodity, than just hope that they arent the one that pans out


I know this may sound crazy but I think Kindl is the one in that deal Id have a hard time dealing right now. We have a bunch of good, young forwards but outside of Smith and Kindl, the blueline is thin. Kindl has really impressed me this year and could theoretically end up being a #3-#4 guy in this league. Kronwall, Smith, and Kindl provide a pretty decent defensive foundation for the post-Nick era.

#40 mmamolo

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Posted 22 November 2011 - 08:39 AM

Crappy-Average players last season were getting at least one first round and/or a high tier prospect. An outlier here or there doesn't change anything. The price for Hossa was medium to high at the time because the players given up were thought of at the time to be can't miss prospects and it looked like two top six forwards were going to be given up in the deal. And Kovi was dealt with his deal because of who the GM was dealing him to. It would cost the farm for a potential rental player when we could just get him as an UFA potentially.

1. If you think Christensen and Armstrong looked like two top-6 forwards then that's fine, but I didn't think that at the time. I would have maybe thought, at most, one of them could become a top-6.
2. Saying the price for Hossa was cheap because Waddell dealt him specifically to Lou is a cop out. GMs don't just give players to their buddies.
3. If you personally don't want to acknowledge the validity of trade values that go against your point/argument that's fine. You can treat them like a statistical aberation. But market prices for players is dictated by supply/demand, signing potential of the rental, cap space etc. Don't pretend that Waddell dealt with Jersey and no one else what so ever because him and Lou are friends.
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