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Jimmy Howard - Vezina winner?


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#21 Hockeytown0001

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 05:21 PM

Agreed. Ever since Montreal fans mastered the art of phone-networked votebombing the AS game's lost whatever credibility it had left.



This. I'm not a fan of overworking goalies. 65 games I can live with but anything over 70 games is retarded.


I've always thought it should be 60 for the starter, 22 for the backup. But yes, anything over 65 or even 70 is far too much. Just look at Kiprusoff and Brodeur.

Edited by Hockeytown0001, 27 November 2011 - 05:22 PM.

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#22 SouthernWingsFan

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 09:23 PM

Not while Pekka Rinne plays in the league.

How'd Rinne do last game?

#23 Hockeytown0001

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Posted 27 November 2011 - 09:26 PM

How'd Rinne do last game?

:thumbup:

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#24 Finnish Wing

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 12:08 PM

How'd Rinne do last game?

How'd Howard do that and that game? We are talking about being the best goaltender in the league, the whole year taken into account. Don't think single game matters much. :)
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#25 rrasco

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 12:19 PM

He's had a great season for us, but you can argue he's not even been in the top five for best goalies this season. I love Howie and his play this seaosn and hope he keeps it up. Rookie year Jimmy is much better than Sophomore year Jimmy :)


Start arguing...

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#26 SouthernWingsFan

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 12:53 PM

How'd Howard do that and that game? We are talking about being the best goaltender in the league, the whole year taken into account. Don't think single game matters much. :)

Entirely subjective on him being the best goalie in the league. That is your opinion, not a fact, so don't treat it as such. While I'm not dismissing that Rinne is one of the better goalies in the league, your bias for Finnish players is clearly showing here.

And Howard beat him and outplayed him this last game since you asked the question.

Edited by SouthernWingsFan, 28 November 2011 - 12:56 PM.


#27 cprice12

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 03:00 PM

Start arguing...

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Right now...I'd vote for Elliot. Right now he's the strongest candidate.

Is that a homer vote? Nope...not really.

Numbers don't lie. He has the best numbers in the NHL right now...leading in GAA, Save%, shutouts and only 3 wins behind Howard in 7 less games played.

#28 Din758

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 03:17 PM

Right now...I'd vote for Elliot. Right now he's the strongest candidate.

Is that a homer vote? Nope...not really.

Numbers don't lie. He has the best numbers in the NHL right now...leading in GAA, Save%, shutouts and only 3 wins behind Howard in 7 less games played.


you make good points and i agree. the wings also have a much better team in front of howard than elliott does. what happened to halak? injury got him out or is he just being outplayed this bad?
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#29 rrasco

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 03:32 PM

Right now...I'd vote for Elliot. Right now he's the strongest candidate.

Is that a homer vote? Nope...not really.

Numbers don't lie. He has the best numbers in the NHL right now...leading in GAA, Save%, shutouts and only 3 wins behind Howard in 7 less games played.


It's no coincidence Elliot is on my fantasy team....right next to Anderson as my 2nd starter. And people said I was crazy when I drafted them....before the season started.

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#30 Din758

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 03:40 PM

It's no coincidence Elliot is on my fantasy team....right next to Anderson as my 2nd starter. And people said I was crazy when I drafted them....before the season started.


I wouldve agreed that you are high
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#31 rrasco

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 04:13 PM

I wouldve agreed that you are high


And you would have been right :hehe:

Goalies don't have much weight in my league, so I opt to draft forwards while everyone is drafting 'high-end' goalies. Just turns out my picks were solid.

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MONEY ON THE BOARD: $10/Kronwalling (1), $1/goal by: Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco, Sheahan, disney.com (1), Andersson, Dekeyser, Pulkinnen, Ouellet, or Sproul.  2X MULTIPLIER: disney.com.  CONSOLATION PRIZE: $5/goal by: Datsyuk (3), $3/goal by: Z (1). MOTB TOTAL: $30


#32 Finnish Wing

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 05:42 PM

Entirely subjective on him being the best goalie in the league. That is your opinion, not a fact, so don't treat it as such. While I'm not dismissing that Rinne is one of the better goalies in the league, your bias for Finnish players is clearly showing here.

And Howard beat him and outplayed him this last game since you asked the question.

I didn't say Pekka Rinne or anyone else IS the best goaltender in the league.

What I did say, was that Jimmy Howard won't win the Vezina while Pekka Rinne plays in the league. Call it an opinion or whatever you want. I call it a fact and am willing to put money on it. It won't be a real fact until we seen what happens.

I'm not accusing you of having bias for Howard so please don't accuse me either. I don't care if Pekka Rinne is Ukranian if he has that size + technique edge which he does.
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#33 cprice12

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 05:54 PM

you make good points and i agree. the wings also have a much better team in front of howard than elliott does. what happened to halak? injury got him out or is he just being outplayed this bad?


I'm not going to concede that the Wings "have a much better team".
We did win the only matchup so far this year, and we're only 1 pt. behind Detroit in the standings.
Both teams have also grabbed 16 pts. over their last 10 games.
Hitchcock may have been the missing piece to the puzzle in St. Louis. This team was supposed to have been really good last year, but fell short. Hopefully this pace (or something close to it) continues.

Halak just got off to a really bad start this year.
He has played much better over his last 6 games.
Elliot has been lights out all year. And had he played the bulk of the games to start the year (not sure why he would though as he came into the season as the backup, even though Halak looked really bad in preseason as well and Elliot was very good), the Blues would probably be in 1st overall...not even close. Halak cost us three or four games to start the season that we should have easily won...he was pretty bad.

#34 rrasco

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 05:58 PM

I didn't say Pekka Rinne or anyone else IS the best goaltender in the league.

What I did say, was that Jimmy Howard won't win the Vezina while Pekka Rinne plays in the league. Call it an opinion or whatever you want. I call it a fact and am willing to put money on it. It won't be a real fact until we seen what happens.

I'm not accusing you of having bias for Howard so please don't accuse me either. I don't care if Pekka Rinne is Ukranian if he has that size + technique edge which he does.


You're right, you didn't say Rinne is better than Jimmy, you implied it. However, you may as well have said it. And it can't be a fact until it happens. What you can call it is a prediction.

imĚply (verb) : to involve or indicate by inference, association, or necessary consequence rather than by direct statement

http://www.merriam-w...ictionary/imply


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MONEY ON THE BOARD: $10/Kronwalling (1), $1/goal by: Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco, Sheahan, disney.com (1), Andersson, Dekeyser, Pulkinnen, Ouellet, or Sproul.  2X MULTIPLIER: disney.com.  CONSOLATION PRIZE: $5/goal by: Datsyuk (3), $3/goal by: Z (1). MOTB TOTAL: $30


#35 Finnish Wing

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 09:12 PM

You're right, you didn't say Rinne is better than Jimmy, you implied it. However, you may as well have said it. And it can't be a fact until it happens. What you can call it is a prediction.

Exactly. I'm not arguing against this.
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#36 toby91_ca

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 09:20 PM

Right now...I'd vote for Elliot. Right now he's the strongest candidate.

Is that a homer vote? Nope...not really.

Numbers don't lie. He has the best numbers in the NHL right now...leading in GAA, Save%, shutouts and only 3 wins behind Howard in 7 less games played.

My problem....I'm not willing to talk about Vezina worthiness with a guy who's only played 12 games so far. Not really into discussing it for guys that played 20 games either.

#37 Hockeytown0001

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 10:24 PM

Right now...I'd vote for Elliot. Right now he's the strongest candidate.

Is that a homer vote? Nope...not really.

Numbers don't lie. He has the best numbers in the NHL right now...leading in GAA, Save%, shutouts and only 3 wins behind Howard in 7 less games played.


Elliot is having a very strong season. However, I'd hold off throwing him in there until he becomes the bonafide number one goalie in St. Louis, as Halak is still getting regular starts.

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#38 SouthernWingsFan

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 07:46 AM

I didn't say Pekka Rinne or anyone else IS the best goaltender in the league.

What I did say, was that Jimmy Howard won't win the Vezina while Pekka Rinne plays in the league. Call it an opinion or whatever you want. I call it a fact and am willing to put money on it. It won't be a real fact until we seen what happens.

I'm not accusing you of having bias for Howard so please don't accuse me either. I don't care if Pekka Rinne is Ukranian if he has that size + technique edge which he does.

Fair enough.

I apologize if I misunderstood you referring to "the best goalie in the league" more in general, vs. Pekka Rinne specifically, which it looks like I did.

Not apologizing for saying you are biased towards Finnish players in general though (not that that's always a bad thing necessarily), you've shown that plenty in the past. When you mention Rinne and best goalie in the league in that reference even though I probably misunderstood, looks like bias is going to show a bit.

Edited by SouthernWingsFan, 29 November 2011 - 07:48 AM.


#39 cprice12

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 02:49 PM

Elliot is having a very strong season. However, I'd hold off throwing him in there until he becomes the bonafide number one goalie in St. Louis, as Halak is still getting regular starts.


If Elliot and Halak both continue to play well, both will continue to get regular starts...which is what is going on now.
Elliot played last game and Halak is playing tonight against the Caps.

#40 rick zombo

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 03:12 PM

If Elliot and Halak both continue to play well, both will continue to get regular starts...which is what is going on now.
Elliot played last game and Halak is playing tonight against the Caps.


Right. If they both get regular starts, this means, to me, that they are spliting games - more or less. That leaves Elliot with only 41 starts. Venzinas go to clear-cut #1 goalies, work horses.

Elliot, right now, is 29th in the league in starts. I'm not saying he hasn't played amazingly well or that he won't continue with these numbers. But for starters, he has to establish himself as the clear number one and get substantially more than 41 starts.

Of the last five vezina winners, Thomas had the fewest starts with 54. Brodeur had the most with 78.

To say Elliot is the "strongest candidate" right now is pretty bold and thoroughly unsupported by statistics - the only thing that can remove bias.
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