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Wings are soft as hell.


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#21 GMRwings1983

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 11:08 PM

Meh. Campbell is more of an agitator that people wanted to punch in the face. I'll give you Thornton (I'd love him on the WIngs because he can actually play) I'll give you McQuaid as well because that boy can FIGHTTTT. Other than those three, who exactly makes this team (oh God) hard? Lucic is a spot picking turd, as is Who Hearing Horton,and even Chara to a lesser degree.

Plus the Bruins didn't win the Cup, the Boston Thomas' won the cup.


Boston has the toughest team in the league right now, bar none.

Thornton, Boychuk, Chara, Lucic, McQuaid, Campbell.


These guys can all fight and are all regulars. No team dresses as tough a lineup every night. I hate those players more than anyone, but you can't take that away from them.

Who do this year's Pens have?


If they ever call up MacIntyre, they'll have the best fighter in hockey today.

They do, however dress Engelland, Asham and Kennedy. A legit heavy and a great middleweight in there. You have to dress tough guys if you're playing in that division.

Number of people supporting particular idea is not a good way to evaluate validity of the said idea.

Having said that I am biased since I prefer skill over grit. Two Sharks skating into each other trying to hit Dats is my idea of a good hockey play. Him fighting Perry - I can live without.


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#22 sean

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 12:04 AM

lucic and chara would destroy anyone on this team without breaking a sweat.

lol @ suggesting the bruins aren't a tough team. get real.



in what? UFC?

There seems to be a disconnect these days between what is fun to watch and what makes an effective NHL team/player.
what

#23 newfy

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 12:08 AM

in what? UFC?

There seems to be a disconnect these days between what is fun to watch and what makes an effective NHL team/player.

Well there were both huge in a stanley cup win last year, one scored more goals than anyone on our team and the other is a top 3 defenseman in the NHL.

So yeah they could destroy most of the wings in hockey, than beat them up

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#24 Bring Back The Bruise Bros

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 01:16 AM

There are plenty of players that we can pick up next year that will make us tougher to play against.

Aron Asham
Brandon Prust
Byron Bitz
Daniel Carcillo
Darrel Boyce
Matt Martin
Shawn Thornton
Sean Avery
Ryan Carter
Tim Jackman
Jim Slater
Joey Grabb
Philippe Dupuis
etc...




Defenseman:
Barret Jackman
Alexi Yemelin
Theo Peckham
Mark Fistric
Korbinian Holzer
Mike Kommiserak
Boris Valabik
etc..


There is plenty of players that Holland can go out and replace Bert, Hudler, Miller, Emmerton and Holstrom etc. We need a change of 4th line. Usually 4th lines are big gritty guys that go out and crash and bang. We have a bunch of small soft guys that get manhandled like crazy.

Haven't had a thread like this is a while.

To be honest, our 4th line hasn't looked awful this year. That being said, come playoff time, we're gonna want a few guys that can wear the defense down on the forecheck and win puck battles down low. As far as defense goes, we need guys that will clear the crease, and be able to block shots. I'm sick of having huge pile-ups on top of Howard because of defense just collapses on him. Here is a list of guys I want us to pursue over the summer. Since money likely won't be a problem this offseason, I won't list their current salary.

Forwards:

Dan Carcillo- 26 years old. 7 points in 19 games coming into tonight. He's found his offensive touch with Chicago this year. Finishes his checks, gets underneath the opposition's skin.
Gregory Campbell- 27 years old. 5 points in 22 games this season. Pretty good in the faceoff circle, he's quick, and gritty.
Brandon Prust- 27 years old. 5 points in 21 games this season. This guy is a total gamer. Complete team guy. One of my favorite non-Wings. He can play a regular shift, hits everything in sight, and can score here and there.
Arron Asham- 33 years old. 6 points in 24 games this year. Solid fighter and good forechecker. He's got playoff experience, but I'd personally like to see us grab a younger guy.
Tim Jackman- 30 years old. 4 points in 22 games. One of the better 4th liners in the NHL. Solid hitter.
George Parros- 31 years old. 1 point in 11 games this season. Been injured for a while, but he's got playoff experience and he's one of the more experienced scrappers in the league. I'd be surprised if he left Anaheim, though.
Travis Moen- 29 years old. 10 points in 24 games. Solid grinder with veteran experience. He's got a nose for the net and is one of Montreal's more consistent offensive players.
Sean Avery- 31 years old. 2 points in 10 games since getting re-called. Sure, he's a controversial character, but when he plays his game and keeps his mouth shut, he's awful effective. Wouldn't mind seeing Avery's return to Detroit.
Brad Winchester- 30 years old. 4 points in 21 games. big, physical presence who can score on occasion. Wouldn't mind seeing him here to bolster the bottom 6.
Tanner Glass- 28 years old. Has had a surprisingly good offensive start to the season. 10 points in 24 games on a line not known for its offensive prowess. This guy is the real deal, folks. Great team guy.
Shawn Thornton- 34 years old. 3 points in 22 games. One of the best defensively responsible 4th liners in the game, and he's a good scrapper. Veteran with past playoff success.
Zenon Konopka- 30 years old. 4 points in 18 games. Faceoff specialist. Another team guy who can skate pretty well.
Matt Martin- 22 years old. RFA after this year. 4 points in 22 games. One of the best hitters in the league. Not afraid to drop the gloves.
Jared Boll- 25 years old. RFA after this year. 1 point in 9 games. Can play on the penalty kill and blocks shots. Sticks up for his teammates. Ferocious on the forecheck.
Kyle Chipchura- 25 years old. RFA after this year. 3 points in 13 games this season. Decent on the faceoffs from what I know. Would be a good 13th forward.
Derek Dorsett- 24 years old. RFA after this year. 5 points in 23 games this season. One of my favorite non-Wings. He's got all the tools to be a legit power forward in this league. Pretty quick skater and a hard hitter. Scrappy combatant indeed, and he's not afraid of anyone. I've discussed this guy with a few different posters here, and he reminds me of McCarty. Kenny, if you're listening, make a trade for this guy.


Defensemen:

Tim Gleason- 28 years old. 6'0", 217. Michigan native. He's got some playoff experience, and he can put up a few points. In addition, he can throw his body around and block shots.
Jim Vandermeer- 31 years old. 6'1", 210. Classic stay-at-home defenseman. Blocks shots. Pretty good scrapper, and kills penalties.
Sheldon Brookbank- 31 years old. 6'1", 200. Fiesty guy who will definitely make sure nobody gets in the same zip code as Howard.
Clayton Stoner- 26 years old. 6'3", 225. Clears the crease and drops the gloves.
Shane O'Brien- 28 years old. 6'3", 230. Big, scrappy defenseman who has grown into a vocal leader on a relatively young Colorado team. Clears the crease, blocks shots, he's the real deal when it comes to stay at home defenseman.
Ryan Wilson- 24 years old. 6'1", 207. RFA after this year. Another one who falls into my "Real deal" category. One of the hardest hitting defenders in the league. Additionally, he's put up 12 points this year.
Theo Peckham- 6'2", 235. RFA after this year. 24 years old. Hard hitting guy who will keep the opposition honest.
Mark Fistric- 6'2", 233. RFA after this year. 25 years old. One of the hardest hitting defensemen in the league, along with Ryan Wilson. One of my favorite defensemen.

Barret Jackman is kind of a ******, and he's getting old, but I wouldn't be upset if we picked him up for cheap.

Sorry for the obscenely long list. Bored tonight.
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#25 pockets

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 05:13 AM

Sure the wings could use more bangers, it would be nice. BUT I wonder how many of the ppl who support bringing in a player like Avery or Carcillo complain about Bert taking dumb penalties. In the end the wings may and more then likely will need a real banger type but unless its someone who fits with the team (which I dont think includes Avery or Carcillo) or our PK suddenly becomes top 5 worthy they shouldnt just take anyone for the sake of adding toughness, grit, banging or whatever lingo you use to describe a player of that type

Edited by pockets, 30 November 2011 - 05:14 AM.


#26 kylee

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 10:01 AM

I'm happy with the bottom six we have. Sure I'd absolutely love to have a Guy who placed like aaron downey and went to hit everyone that was near him, but if our guys play like they do in the playoffs when Darsyuk and Zetterberg and Helm and Clearly are really throwing their checks....that's even better than just one Guy who is a real crash and Banger. Would I love to have a Dallas Drake 2.0 of course, but we have a strong 3rd and 4th lines

#27 Doc Holliday

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 10:27 AM

I think LGW is the only forum in hockey that will whine about the team being soft after a 4 game win streak.

Sure, snarl would be nice to have, but going on a rant while the team is playing great hockey?

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#28 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 11:40 AM

I think LGW is the only forum in hockey that will whine about the team being soft after a 4 game win streak.

Sure, snarl would be nice to have, but going on a rant while the team is playing great hockey?

I don't agree with the OP's assertion that the Wings are soft as hell, but I really don't understand this point, which has become a frequently stated opinion as of late. Are we only allowed to talk about potential changes to the team after they lose? I'm not saying that to be a smartass, I just really don't follow the thinking. When things are going well, how many times can we post "woohoo!" and "Go Wings!"

In another thread, Crymson attacks another member because after a loss that person allegedly makes several posts criticizing the team, but after a win is nowhere to be found. So it's this no-win situation where if you only post after a loss you're a whining fan who does nothing but complain when the team loses, yet if you talk about changes to the team during a win streak, then you're still a spoiled fan because you can't enjoy the team winning.

This isn't directed so much at you, but mainly I'm tired of the thinking here that we should do nothing but say positive things about the team (except of course for Hudler and Ericsson who are apparently exempt from that rule) as if that's the only way to support them and be a true fan. I do support the team. I also want to discuss hockey in a hockey forum. Sometimes that means talking about larger issues with the team, or even just wild ass speculation. The season is long, even if they're on a win streak, that doesn't mean there aren't things to talk about that will have implications down the road this season and in the playoffs. As I've said before, a lot of the criticism here is done with an eye towards the postseason and getting past San Jose, so it's not even about the current win streak.

For those who don't like threads criticizing the team and think they are ill timed, it's very simple to avoid and not post in the thread. It'd be great to have more posts here that actually talk about the Wings and hockey in general, instead of all the ones that only judge how other people post here, including this one.



*getting off my soapbox*

#29 mjlegend

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 11:52 AM

If they do get a guy like that for the playoff stretch, you'd have to think Emmerton would be the odd man out roster-wise. However, it seems to be running against Holland's line of thinking to pick up a player of that ilk so much that he can't possibly be thinking of getting one.

I'm hoping they call up Callahan for a few games this year because that just might end up providing the kind of spark you need some nights.

#30 Frozen-Man

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 01:00 PM

Well there were both huge in a stanley cup win last year, one scored more goals than anyone on our team and the other is a top 3 defenseman in the NHL.

So yeah they could destroy most of the wings in hockey, than beat them up


I don't disagree that Lucic was beneficial to the Bruins in the Playoffs last year but it is a extremely misleading to say that Lucic "scored more goals that anyone on our team" in the Playoffs last year. While technically true Lucic scored 5 goals in 25 games which is .20 goals/game. Z on the other hand scored 3 goals in 7 games which is .43 goals/game. At that pace Z would have scored 10.75 goals in 25 games and more than doubling Lucic's goals. In fact Z, Dats, Eaves, Homer, Helm, and Mule all had better goals/game than Lucic. Additionally, Bert, Cleary, and Flip were all right behind Lucic at .18 goals/game. When you play well over twice as many games as the players that you are comparing it not that relent how many goals were scored but rather how many goals were scored relative to the number of games that each player played. In fact, Lucic was tied with 3 other players for 5th-8th on his team in goals/game. It took Lucic 447 minutes and 32 seconds to score 5 goals throughout the playoffs whereas Z got 3 goals in 153 minutes and 56 seconds. Lucic also scored more goals that Bobby Ryan or Patrick Sharp, more than double Ryan Getzlaf, 5 times more than Dustin Brown, Patrick Kane, or Johnathan Towes. Like I said I don't disagree that Lucic is beneficial to his team but I find your comparison of his goals scored to the Red Wings goals scored to have no real relation.

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#31 Hairy Lime

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 01:15 PM

I think LGW is the only forum in hockey that will whine about the team being soft after a 4 game win streak.

Sure, snarl would be nice to have, but going on a rant while the team is playing great hockey?


That's because some fans have foresight. Regular season wins only get you into the playoffs. If you have a team that A. get's banged around twice as much as other teams in the regular season, that doesn't bode well come playoff time; and B. If you have a team that can't dish it out as good as it gets in the playoffs, advantage opponent. The last Detroit team that had any real grit was, well, the championship team. Any coincidence? Sure, Downey only played around 40 regular season games or so, but he was an effective deterrent in those games. And sure, the only key piece from the championship team that is not here now is Dallas Drake, but Dallas Drake should of won the Conn Smythe for what he gave Detroit in those playoffs. If Abdelkader wasn't such a complete and utter puss, he could maybe fill that role, but he is. And if Bertuzzi would stop playing no-touch hockey, he could also be a more effective player, but he won't. All that being said, outside of the Bruins game I don't think Detroit's lack of physicality has been as glaring as it has in past seasons. But that will change come playoff time.

This team would benefit greatly from looking into acquiring a Dallas Drake-like player by the deadline. Chris Neil, maybe? David Clarkson?




#32 Din758

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 01:28 PM

would love to see boris valabik here. lots of potential, huge, and can scrap. plus he'll be able to give me free tickets to every game lol.

linky

^ hes a wings fan too. look at that 02 cup gear! his in the back with the white shirt

Edited by Din758, 30 November 2011 - 01:49 PM.

Crosby is a crybaby *****

#33 Zetts

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 01:46 PM

I dislike how it always seems the Wings have to be criticized for something around here. But despite the OP's obnoxious tone, there is a reasonable point. A fourth line of Miller-Emmerton-Holmstrom makes me gag. I don't think that the answer has to be players known for toughness, but some sort of theme/identity for the line would be nice. For example, a line like Mursak - Helm - Abdelkader would be great despite not having huge, bruising checkers or a legitimate fighter (ignoring the fact that one of Helm or Abdelkader will be playing a bigger role than fourth-line duty).

Edited by Zetts, 30 November 2011 - 01:51 PM.


#34 newfy

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 01:53 PM

I don't disagree that Lucic was beneficial to the Bruins in the Playoffs last year but it is a extremely misleading to say that Lucic "scored more goals that anyone on our team" in the Playoffs last year. While technically true Lucic scored 5 goals in 25 games which is .20 goals/game. Z on the other hand scored 3 goals in 7 games which is .43 goals/game. At that pace Z would have scored 10.75 goals in 25 games and more than doubling Lucic's goals. In fact Z, Dats, Eaves, Homer, Helm, and Mule all had better goals/game than Lucic. Additionally, Bert, Cleary, and Flip were all right behind Lucic at .18 goals/game. When you play well over twice as many games as the players that you are comparing it not that relent how many goals were scored but rather how many goals were scored relative to the number of games that each player played. In fact, Lucic was tied with 3 other players for 5th-8th on his team in goals/game. It took Lucic 447 minutes and 32 seconds to score 5 goals throughout the playoffs whereas Z got 3 goals in 153 minutes and 56 seconds. Lucic also scored more goals that Bobby Ryan or Patrick Sharp, more than double Ryan Getzlaf, 5 times more than Dustin Brown, Patrick Kane, or Johnathan Towes. Like I said I don't disagree that Lucic is beneficial to his team but I find your comparison of his goals scored to the Red Wings goals scored to have no real relation.

I was just talking regular season, didnt even look into playoffs, obviously he would have mroe goals in the playoffs because his team won the cup

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#35 Doc Holliday

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 02:09 PM

I don't agree with the OP's assertion that the Wings are soft as hell, but I really don't understand this point, which has become a frequently stated opinion as of late. Are we only allowed to talk about potential changes to the team after they lose? I'm not saying that to be a smartass, I just really don't follow the thinking. When things are going well, how many times can we post "woohoo!" and "Go Wings!"

In another thread, Crymson attacks another member because after a loss that person allegedly makes several posts criticizing the team, but after a win is nowhere to be found. So it's this no-win situation where if you only post after a loss you're a whining fan who does nothing but complain when the team loses, yet if you talk about changes to the team during a win streak, then you're still a spoiled fan because you can't enjoy the team winning.

This isn't directed so much at you, but mainly I'm tired of the thinking here that we should do nothing but say positive things about the team (except of course for Hudler and Ericsson who are apparently exempt from that rule) as if that's the only way to support them and be a true fan. I do support the team. I also want to discuss hockey in a hockey forum. Sometimes that means talking about larger issues with the team, or even just wild ass speculation. The season is long, even if they're on a win streak, that doesn't mean there aren't things to talk about that will have implications down the road this season and in the playoffs. As I've said before, a lot of the criticism here is done with an eye towards the postseason and getting past San Jose, so it's not even about the current win streak.

For those who don't like threads criticizing the team and think they are ill timed, it's very simple to avoid and not post in the thread. It'd be great to have more posts here that actually talk about the Wings and hockey in general, instead of all the ones that only judge how other people post here, including this one.



*getting off my soapbox*


The key word is "rant".

We can absolutely talk about how to make the team better(this team needs to get better to contend for a championship), but it just seems like someone getting worked up based on a preference of style and not really on a big weakness the team has. It also doesn't help when some posters get so worked up about physicality they state that Dallas freaking Drake deserved the Conn Smythe for the 2008 playoffs.

On subject: I do think the Wings are going to need to get meaner and bigger now that the disparity in talent between now and 2008 is getting bigger each year. We may not need to become a team that is feared physically, but we do need to become one that can contend physically in the coming years.

Edited by Doc Holliday, 30 November 2011 - 02:12 PM.

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#36 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 02:39 PM

The key word is "rant".

We can absolutely talk about how to make the team better(this team needs to get better to contend for a championship), but it just seems like someone getting worked up based on a preference of style and not really on a big weakness the team has. It also doesn't help when some posters get so worked up about physicality they state that Dallas freaking Drake deserved the Conn Smythe for the 2008 playoffs.

On subject: I do think the Wings are going to need to get meaner and bigger now that the disparity in talent between now and 2008 is getting bigger each year. We may not need to become a team that is feared physically, but we do need to become one that can contend physically in the coming years.

Absolutely agree. Right now they're in this middle ground where they're not quite skilled as they were to outmaneuver physical teams regularly, but they're also not quite physical enough to hold their own.

The thread title is a wee bit melodramatic, but I think there's a valid discussion to be had about making better use of the Wings 4th line.

#37 Frozen-Man

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 03:01 PM

I was just talking regular season, didnt even look into playoffs, obviously he would have mroe goals in the playoffs because his team won the cup


My mistake I apologize, I thought the first part of your post, "Well there were both huge in a stanley cup win last year" was in reference to Lucic in the playoffs. You are correct he scored more goals than any Wing during the regular season.

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#38 Frozen-Man

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 03:07 PM

Absolutely agree. Right now they're in this middle ground where they're not quite skilled as they were to outmaneuver physical teams regularly, but they're also not quite physical enough to hold their own.

The thread title is a wee bit melodramatic, but I think there's a valid discussion to be had about making better use of the Wings 4th line.


I think the Wings are in kind of a hard spot right now with the 4th line though. Holmstrom is mostly effective on the PP and there is uncertainty how to best utilize or utilize him at all during non PP time. I think he kind of throws a kink in the lineup because where exactly do you put him.

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#39 Red Wings Addict

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 03:41 PM

I blame Hudler.

#40 F.Michael

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 03:49 PM

I don't totally disagree, but boy those big tough Bruins sure put the Wings in their place last week.

I would rather have Ericsson for 15 years than Mike Komisarek, also.

Yeah - regular season means so much...

Had we faced them last spring - we would've had a repeat of 1995...Some here tend to forget how throughout the playoffs the game tends to favor teams that can not only score goals, but can physically dominate you as well.

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