News From Around the NHL *Mod warning page 75*

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

50 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

 

I have to assume you guys would "do it"..."all day" because of Svech's injury and not because of their respective careers up to this point.  Svech has shown better in his short time (admittedly a small sample size), but Puljujarvi has been given a fair amount of opportunity to crack his squad and make a difference and he basically can't.  He's also a p*ssy, and doesn't like playing in the corners.  Something Svech has no issue with.  Puljujarvi sucks.  He's another Valeri Nichushkin.  He big, skilled, and has a high draft pedigree so people assume he's supposed to be good.  But he can't play with pace, doesn't win physical battles, and basically wants to play KHL hockey all game (float around waiting for his linemates to set him up in the open ice).  No thanks.  I'll stick with the kid who actually works hard and isn't a b*tch. 

We have guys greater than or equal to what Svech could turn out to be (top 6 left handed).  We dont have any guys equal to what Puljujarvi could turn out to be (1st line right handed).  

[kipwinger 8,524]

Just now, Jonas Mahonas said:

We have guys greater than or equal to what Svech could turn out to be (top 6 left handed).  We dont have any guys equal to what Puljujarvi could turn out to be (1st line right handed).  

Seems flimsy.  Puljujarvi sucks.  First, see what you have in Svech.  He might be really valuable as a digger for a guy like AA or Zadina down the road (the way Bert is for Mantha and Larkin).  If so, don't trade him because you need those guys to retrieve the pucks for the skill guys.

But if you're dead set on trading him for a righty, trade him for a GOOD righty.  Again, Puljujarvi sucks. 

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

9 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

Seems flimsy.  Puljujarvi sucks.  First, see what you have in Svech.  He might be really valuable as a digger for a guy like AA or Zadina down the road (the way Bert is for Mantha and Larkin).  If so, don't trade him because you need those guys to retrieve the pucks for the skill guys.

But if you're dead set on trading him for a righty, trade him for a GOOD righty.  Again, Puljujarvi sucks. 

I agree with you on a so far basis.  But hes only 21 and he was a #4 overall pick.  If you are gonna take a flier, this is the kinda guy to take the risk on.  Puck diggers arent at a premium.  Right Handed goal scorers are.  

[kipwinger 8,524]

8 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

I agree with you on a so far basis.  But hes only 21 and he was a #4 overall pick.  If you are gonna take a flier, this is the kinda guy to take the risk on.  Puck diggers arent at a premium.  Right Handed goal scorers are.  

But we aren't really in a position where we need to "take a flier".  If Svech fizzles out, then sure, I'd be down for trading one bum for another in hopes that it might ignite someone's career.  But we don't even know what we have in Svech right now.  And we don't really need a reclaimation project during a rebuild.  I'd also argue that organizationally we've only got a few "diggers": Bert is the proven one, and then MAYBE Svech, Ras, and Grewe.  We've got a fair amount of left handed skill guys: Mantha, AA, Zadina, Berggren, Mastrosimone, Hirose, Kivenmaki.  So if you're going to take a "flier" on a no-good righty, which I don't think we should, I'd probably center it around one of those guys knowing that if it doesn't work out we've got plenty more depth in that area. 

Edited September 4, 2019 by kipwinger

[krsmith17 7,191]

At this point, I consider both Svechnikov and Puljujarvi to be "boom or bust" prospects. I think Svechnikov has a higher floor (3rd line winger) and lower ceiling (2nd line winger), while Puljujarvi has a lower floor (bust) and higher ceiling (1st line winger). I'd personally prefer to take the gamble on the higher ceiling player, even if he could potentially bust.

Puljujarvi does not "suck". He's a very skilled player that has been thrown into a s*** situation, way too early in his career. Maybe the mismanagement in Edmonton has already ruined Puljujarvi. Maybe the ACL injuries and key developmental years lost has already ruined Svechnikov. Who knows... But I'd make that trade one for one without thinking twice. Unfortunately, Holland wouldn't make that trade though, and for good reason. At this point, Puljujarvi is still the better prospect.

[kipwinger 8,524]

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

At this point, I consider both Svechnikov and Puljujarvi to be "boom or bust" prospects. I think Svechnikov has a higher floor (3rd line winger) and lower ceiling (2nd line winger), while Puljujarvi has a lower floor (bust) and higher ceiling (1st line winger). I'd personally prefer to take the gamble on the higher ceiling player, even if he could potentially bust.

Puljujarvi does not "suck". He's a very skilled player that has been thrown into a s*** situation, way too early in his career. Maybe the mismanagement in Edmonton has already ruined Puljujarvi. Maybe the ACL injuries and key developmental years lost has already ruined Svechnikov. Who knows... But I'd make that trade one for one without thinking twice. Unfortunately, Holland wouldn't make that trade though, and for good reason. At this point, Puljujarvi is still the better prospect.

All this talk about floors and ceilings and mismanagement reminds me of your Smith and Jurco talk a few years ago.  Fans always talk about some underperformer's "potential" until it's obvious they blow, and then it's someone else's fault.  Puljujarvi's had ample time in the AHL to round out his game.  Nobody rushed him.  He played 39 AHL games and tore it up, but couldn't manage to do the same in the NHL.  Reminds me of guys like Frk or Jurco or Pulkkinen.  There's no shortage of guys who are lights out in the AHL and then can't manage to make an impact in the NHL. More seasoning isn't going to help them.

Then he was given every opportunity to make an impact at the NHL level.  He's played more than 130 games alongside world class centermen (McDavid, Draisaitl, RNH). He was given PP time from the beginning, and then saw if trail off to nothing this last season when he failed to produce.

Sure Edmonton is a dumpster fire, but tons of teams are and their higher end picks still find a way to make a statement.  Nobody has to make "Ottawa sucks" excuses for Brady Tkachuk because he's actually good.  Same goes for Clayton Keller. Same for Huberdeau. Same for Eichel. Same for any number of other guys relegated to perpetually sh*tty organizations but still find a way to be effective. 

The guy's a bum.  Maybe Svech will turn out to be one too.  But that's far from certain. Because unlike Puljujarvi he hasn't been given every possible opportunity to succeed in the NHL.  His chance to finally break onto the main roster was last year and he blew his knee out. So we don't know what we have in him.  Might want to see what he actually is before moving out for some hack with a bad attitude. 

Edit:  For reference's sake, the Red Wing closest to Puljujarvi in terms of age, games played, and production is Adam Erne. 

Edited September 4, 2019 by kipwinger

[Dabura 12,207]

Again, I have a really hard time seeing Yzerman having any real interest in Puljujarvi. Holland, as Red Wings GM, might've kicked those tires. But Yzerman? Nah.

Yzerman wants hard-working troops with good attitudes -- "young Yzermans," if you will. Say what you want about Svechnikov but I've never caught a whiff of bad vibes coming from him; he's been a good soldier, he's fought through some s*** luck, he deserves the extended Red Wings audition that he's been working towards.

Puljujarvi? He's chosen to take the pout path. Let someone else take on that baggage.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Dabura

[krsmith17 7,191]

23 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

All this talk about floors and ceilings and mismanagement reminds me of your Smith and Jurco talk a few years ago.  Fans always talk about some underperformer's "potential" until it's obvious they blow, and then it's someone else's fault.  Puljujarvi's had ample time in the AHL to round out his game.  Nobody rushed him.  He played 39 AHL games and tore it up, but couldn't manage to do the same in the NHL.  Reminds me of guys like Frk or Jurco or Pulkkinen.  There's no shortage of guys who are lights out in the AHL and then can't manage to make an impact in the NHL. More seasoning isn't going to help them.

Then he was given every opportunity to make an impact at the NHL level.  He's played more than 130 games alongside world class centermen (McDavid, Draisaitl, RNH). He was given PP time from the beginning, and then saw if trail off to nothing this last season when he failed to produce.

Sure Edmonton is a dumpster fire, but tons of teams are and their higher end picks still find a way to make a statement.  Nobody has to make "Ottawa sucks" excuses for Brady Tkachuk because he's actually good.  Same goes for Clayton Keller. Same for Huberdeau. Same for Eichel. Same for any number of other guys relegated to perpetually sh*tty organizations but still find a way to be effective. 

The guy's a bum.  Maybe Svech will turn out to be one too.  But that's far from certain. Because unlike Puljujarvi he hasn't been given every possible opportunity to succeed in the NHL.  His chance to finally break onto the main roster was last year and he blew his knee out. So we don't know what we have in him.  Might want to see what he actually is before moving out for some hack with a bad attitude. 

Edit:  For reference's sake, the Red Wing closest to Puljujarvi in terms of age, games played, and production is Adam Erne. 

LOL I knew you were going to bring up Jurco and / or Smith. I actually had it typed out, but erased it. It's your only argument against me. "Remember that time you were way off on a player's development? Yeah, your opinion doesn't mean s***"...

kipwinger - Puljujarvi is a "hack with a bad attitude".

eliteprospects - Puljujarvi has a "great work ethic and positive attitude".

Puljujarvi has better points per game than Svechnikov at every level, and is a year and a half younger. You're right though, terrible trade...

[kipwinger 8,524]

22 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

LOL I knew you were going to bring up Jurco and / or Smith. I actually had it typed out, but erased it. It's your only argument against me. "Remember that time you were way off on a player's development? Yeah, your opinion doesn't mean s***"...

kipwinger - Puljujarvi is a "hack with a bad attitude".

eliteprospects - Puljujarvi has a "great work ethic and positive attitude".

Puljujarvi has better points per game than Svechnikov at every level, and is a year and a half younger. You're right though, terrible trade...

Svech has played 16 games.  Puljujarvi has played 139.  Again, the Red Wing most comparable to him is Adam Erne.  So...yeah, dumb trade.  Something tells me Svech might score a bit more riding shotgun with Draisaitl and RNH and getting powerplay time.  At the very least I doubt he'd demand a trade, then threaten to play in Finland because the trade isn't happening fast enough.  So yeah, bad attitude. 

Edit:  Also, the point of bringing up Smith/Jurco was not to point out that you got something wrong.  We all get it wrong about prospects sometimes. I thought Frk would be a reliable 3rd line scorer for instance.  He isn't. The point was to illustrate HOW you got it wrong.  You made excuses for the guys past the point that any rational person might, and then when it was finally obvious that they sucked, you blamed everyone else but them.  Same thing you're doing here.  Puljujarvi blows.  You're just the last one to recognize it. 

Edited September 4, 2019 by kipwinger

[krsmith17 7,191]

1 hour ago, kipwinger said:

Svech has played 16 games.  Puljujarvi has played 139.  Again, the Red Wing most comparable to him is Adam Erne.  So...yeah, dumb trade.  Something tells me Svech might score a bit more riding shotgun with Draisaitl and RNH and getting powerplay time.  At the very least I doubt he'd demand a trade, then threaten to play in Finland because the trade isn't happening fast enough.  So yeah, bad attitude. 

Edit:  Also, the point of bringing up Smith/Jurco was not to point out that you got something wrong.  We all get it wrong about prospects sometimes. I thought Frk would be a reliable 3rd line scorer for instance.  He isn't. The point was to illustrate HOW you got it wrong.  You made excuses for the guys past the point that any rational person might, and then when it was finally obvious that they sucked, you blamed everyone else but them.  Same thing you're doing here.  Puljujarvi blows.  You're just the last one to recognize it. 

139 NHL games is a LOT for a 21 year old. He's still very young, and with a change of scenery, he could possibly find his game again. Again, he doesn't suck. Far from it. The skill is there, it's just a matter of a team / coach helping him fulfill that potential.

Something tells me Svechnikov wouldn't have scored as much as Puljujarvi, since he's never been more productive at any point in his career...

Yeah, players are never mismanaged or underutilized... Never happens... 

Let me ask you this... Why do you think Holland is asking for such a huge return for a player that clearly blows, to everyone but me? Do you think he would trade Puljujarvi straight up for Svechnikov?

[kipwinger 8,524]

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

139 NHL games is a LOT for a 21 year old. He's still very young, and with a change of scenery, he could possibly find his game again. Again, he doesn't suck. Far from it. The skill is there, it's just a matter of a team / coach helping him fulfill that potential.

Something tells me Svechnikov wouldn't have scored as much as Puljujarvi, since he's never been more productive at any point in his career...

Yeah, players are never mismanaged or underutilized... Never happens... 

Let me ask you this... Why do you think Holland is asking for such a huge return for a player that clearly blows, to everyone but me? Do you think he would trade Puljujarvi straight up for Svechnikov?

I think Holland ABSOLUTELY would trade Puljujarvi for Svech straight up.  As you've correctly pointed out, one of them has played a lot of games and has played himself off his NHL team, while the other has played almost no NHL games but has looked good in his small sample size before being injured.  Also, Holland drafted Svech so he clearly likes the player a little bit. 

Secondly, Holland would be retarded if he didn't ask for the moon and stars for Puljujarvi. He's asking a lot because he doesn't need to trade him right now.  So if he gets it great and if he doesn't then Puljujarvi plays in Europe.  Puljujarvi playing in Europe would actually help his value, which is at an all time low.  Asking for a lot (knowing he won't get it) allows Holland to A) "oblige" the player's trade request as much as possible, B) Make Edmonton's fans happy, since they don't want a replay of the Yakupov fiasco, C) let Puljujarvi recover from his injury (double hip surgery!!), D) maybe recover some of the value he's lost, and E) make use of Puljujarvi's one remaining asset, his draft pedigree. 

The only thing stupid about the reported asking price is if someone pays it.  We're not talking about a Jonathan Drouin type of player here, who's getting traded after dropping 53 points in a season.  We're talking about a guy coming off a serious injury who scored 9! points last year.  Right now he's worth A) another reclaimation project (which Svechnikov isn't), or B) a 3rd round pick. 

Edited September 4, 2019 by kipwinger

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

6 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I think Holland ABSOLUTELY would trade Puljujarvi for Svech straight up.  As you've correctly pointed out, one of them has played a lot of games and has played himself off his NHL team, while the other has played almost no NHL games but has looked good in his small sample size before being injured.  Also, Holland drafted Svech so he clearly likes the player a little bit. 

Secondly, Holland would be retarded if he didn't ask for the moon and stars for Puljujarvi. He's asking a lot because he doesn't need to trade him right now.  So if he gets it great and if he doesn't then Puljujarvi plays in Europe.  Puljujarvi playing in Europe would actually help his value, which is at an all time low.  Asking for a lot (knowing he won't get it) allows Holland to A) "oblige" the player's trade request as much as possible, B) Make Edmonton's fans happy, since they don't want a replay of the Yakupov fiasco, C) let Puljujarvi recover from his injury (double hip surgery!!), D) maybe recover some of the value he's lost, and E) make use of Puljujarvi's one remaining asset, his draft pedigree. 

The only thing stupid about the potential asking price is if someone pays it.  We're not talking about a Jonathan Drouin type of player here, who's getting traded after dropping 53 points in a season.  We're talking about a guy coming off a serious injury who scored 9! points last year.  Right now he's worth A) another reclaimation project (which Svechnikov isn't), or B) a 3rd round pick. 

This just isnt accurate.

[kipwinger 8,524]

1 minute ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

This just isnt accurate.

This particular rebuttal cuts the deepest.  You win.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

14 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

This particular rebuttal cuts the deepest.  You win.

Dude, KRS is right in this thread, bruh.  Your arguments in court would go like this:

Puljujarvi stinks because ...

Objection, Heresay.

Sustained.

X100.

Better bring some more evidence than just your opinion, because this one isnt strong.

[krsmith17 7,191]

46 minutes ago, kipwinger said:

I think Holland ABSOLUTELY would trade Puljujarvi for Svech straight up.  As you've correctly pointed out, one of them has played a lot of games and has played himself off his NHL team, while the other has played almost no NHL games but has looked good in his small sample size before being injured.  Also, Holland drafted Svech so he clearly likes the player a little bit. 

Secondly, Holland would be retarded if he didn't ask for the moon and stars for Puljujarvi. He's asking a lot because he doesn't need to trade him right now.  So if he gets it great and if he doesn't then Puljujarvi plays in Europe.  Puljujarvi playing in Europe would actually help his value, which is at an all time low.  Asking for a lot (knowing he won't get it) allows Holland to A) "oblige" the player's trade request as much as possible, B) Make Edmonton's fans happy, since they don't want a replay of the Yakupov fiasco, C) let Puljujarvi recover from his injury (double hip surgery!!), D) maybe recover some of the value he's lost, and E) make use of Puljujarvi's one remaining asset, his draft pedigree. 

The only thing stupid about the reported asking price is if someone pays it.  We're not talking about a Jonathan Drouin type of player here, who's getting traded after dropping 53 points in a season.  We're talking about a guy coming off a serious injury who scored 9! points last year.  Right now he's worth A) another reclaimation project (which Svechnikov isn't), or B) a 3rd round pick. 

Puljujarvi is worth a 3rd round pick... Yeah, okay...

[kipwinger 8,524]

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

Puljujarvi is worth a 3rd round pick... Yeah, okay...

A guy who scored 9 points in 46 games last year, and then had two hip surgeries, is worth a 3rd round pick. Yes.  And that's precisely why Ken Holland isn't in a rush to trade him.

[mackel 681]

We'll be on the other side of this problem with "Mr. Net filler" in a couple of years.  That's gonna be fun to watch.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

1 hour ago, mackel said:

We'll be on the other side of this problem with "Mr. Net filler" in a couple of years.  That's gonna be fun to watch.

Ha ha ha.  Who do we whip until then?

[LeftWinger 4,959]

I'd give them Helm for JP. But I'm thinking if we traded Svech it would be (in a package?) for something a little more proven.  If we dealt Helm, we'd be ok with the other bottom 6'ers we have.  MAYBE toss in a Level B prospect (Turgeon or Ehn? Kuffner?) to get JP, but Svech I'd have to pass.  Like Kip says, I'd like to see what a healthy Svech brings to the table.  Although I think he'll start in GR.

[Buppy 1,720]

2 hours ago, kipwinger said:

...The only thing stupid about the reported asking price is if someone pays it.  We're not talking about a Jonathan Drouin type of player here, who's getting traded after dropping 53 points in a season.  We're talking about a guy coming off a serious injury who scored 9! points last year.  Right now he's worth A) another reclaimation project (which Svechnikov isn't), or B) a 3rd round pick. 

I don't disagree with the assessment of Puljujarvi, but how is Svech any better?  Your argument for that seems to rely on the fact that Svech hasn't yet been considered good enough to get extended NHL time and that his injury cost him a full season instead of just half. 

Svech looked good in his first AHL season. Good enough that he should have challenged for a spot with the Wings the next year. Instead he regressed badly, got a late call-up anyway but did next to nothing with it, nor in the AHL after, then missed an entire season with a wrecked knee. Reclamation project is his middle name.

I'd rather not give up even bad picks/prospects for Pulju, but I'd definitely take him over Svech.

[kipwinger 8,524]

30 minutes ago, Buppy said:

I don't disagree with the assessment of Puljujarvi, but how is Svech any better?  Your argument for that seems to rely on the fact that Svech hasn't yet been considered good enough to get extended NHL time and that his injury cost him a full season instead of just half. 

Svech looked good in his first AHL season. Good enough that he should have challenged for a spot with the Wings the next year. Instead he regressed badly, got a late call-up anyway but did next to nothing with it, nor in the AHL after, then missed an entire season with a wrecked knee. Reclamation project is his middle name.

I'd rather not give up even bad picks/prospects for Pulju, but I'd definitely take him over Svech.

I just want to reiterate that I think Svech is still an unknown, not that he's somehow definitely better than Puljujarvi.  As such, I'd rather see what we have in him before we trade him.  Why do I think he's an unknown?

Three years ago he played two games in the NHL and looked lost, but he tore up the AHL.  Then two years ago he had a down year for most of the season in the AHL, but got called up at the end of the season for 14 games.  The first 6 of those games he was a non-factor.  Then he scored 4 points in his last 8 games and earned a little more ice time each game.  Then finally, going into last year he started out the pre-season looking pretty good, scoring 2g and 1a in 5 games, and looked very much like he'd make the team.  Then he blew out his knee and the rest is history.

Again, I realize it's a small sample size including a pre-season.  But there's enough there for me to want to see if what else he's got. Whereas with Puljujarvi I see a guy who's been given ample opportunity and squandered it, with Svech I see a guy who may be a productive player with that same opportunity. 

I could be wrong, but that's my rationale.

2 hours ago, mackel said:

We'll be on the other side of this problem with "Mr. Net filler" in a couple of years.  That's gonna be fun to watch.

You've made your point man.  We all get that you don't think Zadina is going to be all that good.  Maybe not.  But bringing it up at every opportunity isn't contributing in any way to the discussion.

[kipwinger 8,524]

Then there's this, from an article in the Athletic referencing Puljujarvi. 

"We’ve covered this road before, but Puljujarvi’s ideal spot is on the right wing with Connor McDavid as his centre. In three seasons with Edmonton, Puljujarvi has played 407 minutes and 44 seconds at five-on-five with McDavid, scoring 6-8-14 for 2.06 points per 60. That’s a better number than Alex Chiasson had with McDavid (1.48 per 60 in 284 minutes) and better than Zack Kassian (1.96 per 60 in 428 minutes) one year ago.

Despite the results, Puljujarvi’s (almost) 408 minutes at five-on-five with McDavid during his entry deal represent 25 percent of his playing time. Puljujarvi has produced just 17 points in over 1,600 minutes away from McDavid. That’s 0.63 points per 60 at five-on-five away from the captain.

Puljujarvi’s possession numbers with McDavid also shine like a diamond: During his entry years, Puljujarvi with McDavid owns a 55 percent possession rate (Corsi-for) five-on-five via Natural Stat Trick. Without McDavid, his Corsi-for five-on-five as an Oilers player is 47.9 percent."

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

2 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Then there's this, from an article in the Athletic referencing Puljujarvi. 

"We’ve covered this road before, but Puljujarvi’s ideal spot is on the right wing with Connor McDavid as his centre. In three seasons with Edmonton, Puljujarvi has played 407 minutes and 44 seconds at five-on-five with McDavid, scoring 6-8-14 for 2.06 points per 60. That’s a better number than Alex Chiasson had with McDavid (1.48 per 60 in 284 minutes) and better than Zack Kassian (1.96 per 60 in 428 minutes) one year ago.

Despite the results, Puljujarvi’s (almost) 408 minutes at five-on-five with McDavid during his entry deal represent 25 percent of his playing time. Puljujarvi has produced just 17 points in over 1,600 minutes away from McDavid. That’s 0.63 points per 60 at five-on-five away from the captain.

Puljujarvi’s possession numbers with McDavid also shine like a diamond: During his entry years, Puljujarvi with McDavid owns a 55 percent possession rate (Corsi-for) five-on-five via Natural Stat Trick. Without McDavid, his Corsi-for five-on-five as an Oilers player is 47.9 percent."

Im sure Jari Kurri with Gretzky was similar.

[kipwinger 8,524]

7 hours ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Im sure Jari Kurri with Gretzky was similar.

Well we don't have a Wayne Gretzky or a Connor McDavid.  So guys that are heavily dependent on playing with centers like that wouldn't do very well here.

[Jonas Mahonas 1,872]

2 hours ago, kipwinger said:

Well we don't have a Wayne Gretzky or a Connor McDavid.  So guys that are heavily dependent on playing with centers like that wouldn't do very well here.

Larkin and Lafreniere wouldnt be too bad.

 

https://www.draftsite.com/nhl/player/alexis-lafrenière/29976/

 

Lafreniere could play center according to his secondary position in this link.

 

You gotta have all the ingredients to make a cake, kip.  Not just a bunch of flour.