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1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

Cool. There are probably about 10 for me. None of the teams of those defensemen would trade them though, so what's the point? Why trade away your best goal scorer to fill one hole and create another? There also aren't many defensemen in the league I'd trade Larkin for right now. I guess I'm a Larkin "hypeboy" too...

Because defense is more important. And 25 goals a year can be replaced by committee OR by Zadina. 

Also

Larkin has arrived. Mantha's always "getting there". 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Because defense is more important. And 25 goals a year can be replaced by committee OR by Zadina. 

Also

Larkin has arrived. Mantha's always "getting there". 

Defense is more important than goal scoring? Says who? Goals win hockey games. Defense help win hockey games. I'd say defensemen are viewed as more valuable than wingers, but highly skilled power forwards are extremely valuable. It would be beyond dumb to trade Mantha right now.

Mantha scored at a 30 goal pace this past season. He's only entering his prime now, and could easily put up 35 this season if he stays healthy. What Mantha brings can't just be replaced from within the organization. I have high hopes for Zadina, but he's likely not going to surpass Mantha in the next few seasons, and even if he does, it's never a bad thing to have two or more wingers that can pot north of 30 goals.

Larkin has arrived, but I don't believe he's fulfilled his full potential yet. Same goes for Mantha. So both are still "getting there" in my opinion. 

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27 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Defense is more important than goal scoring? Says who? Goals win hockey games. Defense help win hockey games. I'd say defensemen are viewed as more valuable than wingers, but highly skilled power forwards are extremely valuable. It would be beyond dumb to trade Mantha right now.

Mantha scored at a 30 goal pace this past season. He's only entering his prime now, and could easily put up 35 this season if he stays healthy. What Mantha brings can't just be replaced from within the organization. I have high hopes for Zadina, but he's likely not going to surpass Mantha in the next few seasons, and even if he does, it's never a bad thing to have two or more wingers that can pot north of 30 goals.

Larkin has arrived, but I don't believe he's fulfilled his full potential yet. Same goes for Mantha. So both are still "getting there" in my opinion. 

I keep hearing about Mantha breaking 30 (let alone 35) but I have yet to see it. I mean, I hope he does?  He'll be 25 before 19-20 season starts. 

To say it would be "beyond dumb" to trade him right now is just you riding the Tony Train you've built for yourself. Ask yourself this: would YOU trade Mantha for Sergachev? No. Would Tampa? No. That's basically it in a nutshell.  Defensemen are far and away more valuable than scoring wingers. What was that you said? "There's no two ways about it". 

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From what I remember of Ristolainen from living in Buffalo was that he was like a bigger less-talented Erik Karlsson.

Big mobile Dman who can eat top minutes and move the puck around the ice... but prone to frustrating defensive lapses and gaffs, and obviously doesn't possess the flashy level talent of Karlsson.

I'd roll the dice on it for the right price

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43 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

I keep hearing about Mantha breaking 30 (let alone 35) but I have yet to see it. I mean, I hope he does?  He'll be 25 before 19-20 season starts. 

To say it would be "beyond dumb" to trade him right now is just you riding the Tony Train you've built for yourself. Ask yourself this: would YOU trade Mantha for Sergachev? No. Would Tampa? No. That's basically it in a nutshell.  Defensemen are far and away more valuable than scoring wingers. What was that you said? "There's no two ways about it". 

So you don't think a 24 year old (soon to be 25) that scored at a 30 goal pace can hit 30+ goals if healthy for an entire season? Yeah, okay...

Sergachev would probably be one of the defensemen on my 10 player list, so yeah, I might consider trading Mantha for Sergachev. Maybe. But again, it's filling one hole by creating another. I think it's more likely that Cholowski (or McIsaac) could fill the role of Sergachev (lite), than anyone in the organization being able fill the role of Mantha.

Defensemen are perceived as being more valuable than scoring wingers, but I don't necessarily share that mindset. Do you think Adam Larsson is more valuable than Taylor Hall? 

34 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

From what I remember of Ristolainen from living in Buffalo was that he was like a bigger less-talented Erik Karlsson.

Big mobile Dman who can eat top minutes and move the puck around the ice... but prone to frustrating defensive lapses and gaffs, and obviously doesn't possess the flashy level talent of Karlsson.

I'd roll the dice on it for the right price

I'll admit that I don't know a ton on Ristolainen, and I'm not totally against trading for him, depending on the cost. What would you be willing to give up in a trade for him?

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6 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

So you don't think a 24 year old (soon to be 25) that scored at a 30 goal pace can hit 30+ goals if healthy for an entire season? Yeah, okay...

Sergachev would probably be one of the defensemen on my 10 player list, so yeah, I might consider trading Mantha for Sergachev. Maybe. But again, it's filling one hole by creating another. I think it's more likely that Cholowski (or McIsaac) could fill the role of Sergachev (lite), than anyone in the organization being able fill the role of Mantha.

Defensemen are perceived as being more valuable than scoring wingers, but I don't necessarily share that mindset. Do you think Adam Larsson is more valuable than Taylor Hall? 

I'll admit that I don't know a ton on Ristolainen, and I'm not totally against trading for him, depending on the cost. What would you be willing to give up in a trade for him?

Role: goals

2020 - 21 season

Rasmussen - 20

Zadina  - 25

There, I did it. 

 

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6 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Mantha lol

No thanks.

2 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Role: goals

2020 - 21 season

Rasmussen - 20

Zadina  - 25

There, I did it. 

Oh okay, so you're going to have two players in the organization do what one player can do. Well then in that case, Hronek and Cholowski can do what *insert trade target* can do.

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1 minute ago, krsmith17 said:

No thanks.

Oh okay, so you're going to have two players in the organization do what one player can do. Well then in that case, Hronek and Cholowski can do what *insert trade target* can do.

This is make or break season for Mantha this year IMO. I need a 30 x 30, 60+ pt season out of him or I hate him.

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6 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

This is make or break season for Mantha this year IMO. I need a 30 x 30, 60+ pt season out of him or I hate him.

Considering he was close to that pace last season, I'd be shocked if he doesn't reach it this season (assuming he's healthy). I expect 30-35 goals, 60-70 points. IF he is that player through his prime, would you trade him for Ristolainen? I wouldn't.

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13 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

 

Oh okay, so you're going to have two players in the organization do what one player can do. Well then in that case, Hronek and Cholowski can do what *insert trade target* can do.

My math says Zadina alone does it. 

Rasmussen will almost do it as well and can also fill your craving for big men who float. 

I was giving you two options. 

We will never be able to have a real conversation if you refuse to admit your bias. 

12 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

This is make or break season for Mantha this year IMO. I need a 30 x 30, 60+ pt season out of him or I hate him.

I'm afraid it's always going to be "next season" for Big Tony. 

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16 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

This is make or break season for Mantha this year IMO. I need a 30 x 30, 60+ pt season out of him or I hate him.

Is he the new Lazy and Sucks (tm) ?

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4 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

My math says Zadina alone does it. 

Rasmussen will almost do it as well and can also fill your craving for big men who float. 

I was giving you two options. 

We will never be able to have a real conversation if you refuse to admit your bias. 

I'm afraid it's always going to be "next season" for Big Tony. 

We will never be able to have a real conversation if you refuse to take pace into consideration. Mantha will score 30 goals. So no, Zadina alone would not cover the loss of Mantha. You also refuse to answer several questions I asked pertaining to the conversation, so whatever...

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2 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

Yzerman's going to clean house.

It certainly could happen. He seems willing to ax players he doesn't like, and he put a big emphasis on players who work hard at the draft. I get the impression he thinks he inherited a lazy team.

I wonder if he changes coaches before changing players though.

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5 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

It certainly could happen. He seems willing to ax players he doesn't like, and he put a big emphasis on players who work hard at the draft. I get the impression he thinks he inherited a lazy team.

I wonder if he changes coaches before changing players though.

Me too. Very much so.

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since we seem to already know how many goals everyone is going to score this season, (boy I sure remember when Nyquist scored 28 and 27 and he was "going to score 30-35" but followed it up with 17 then 12.) but if we already know, I am going to say AA will score more goals than Mantha.

Mantha will score 35, AA will score 36.

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8 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

Mantha will score 35

In 74 games.

9 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

AA will score 36

In 80 games.

:P

Seriously though, Mantha and Athanasiou are our two best goal scorers right now, and both are more than capable of 30+ a season. I'd be thrilled if either reach 35, but I'd personally give the slight edge to Mantha. We'll see.

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Just now, krsmith17 said:

In 74 games.

In 80 games.

:P

Seriously though, Mantha and Athanasiou are our two best goal scorers right now, and both are more than capable of 30+ a season. I'd be thrilled if either reach 35, but I'd personally give the slight edge to Mantha. We'll see.

and again, unless we are getting a slam dunk #1 D back, I am not trading either of them, especially for a #3/4 guy. Maybe its just me...

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So - let me get this straight...Ristolainen who's a 40 plus pts getter as a Dman for the past 4 seasons isn't anything special - however our tender child known as Mantha who also is a 40 plus pts getter for the past 2 seasons as a winger is all of a sudden vastly superior, and the thought of an even swap is ridiculous?

.Isn't the school of thought that Dmen tend to blossom later - while the  wingers shoot their load early in their career?

I dunno...To me Mantha doesn't exactly strike me as the second coming of a Brendan Shanahan.....

 

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11 minutes ago, F.Michael said:

So - let me get this straight...Ristolainen who's a 40 plus pts getter as a Dman for the past 4 seasons isn't anything special - however our tender child known as Mantha who also is a 40 plus pts getter for the past 2 seasons as a winger is all of a sudden vastly superior, and the thought of an even swap is ridiculous?

.Isn't the school of thought that Dmen tend to blossom later - while the  wingers shoot their load early in their career?

I dunno...To me Mantha doesn't exactly strike me as the second coming of a Brendan Shanahan.....

 

:lol: Yup

And in reality it would probably take Mantha + MacIssac + 2nd to maybe get it done. 

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12 minutes ago, F.Michael said:

So - let me get this straight...Ristolainen who's a 40 plus pts getter as a Dman for the past 4 seasons isn't anything special - however our tender child known as Mantha who also is a 40 plus pts getter for the past 2 seasons as a winger is all of a sudden vastly superior, and the thought of an even swap is ridiculous?

.Isn't the school of thought that Dmen tend to blossom later - while the  wingers shoot their load early in their career?

I dunno...To me Mantha doesn't exactly strike me as the second coming of a Brendan Shanahan.....

It's not just about points. Ristolainen is a defenseman that doesn't really play much defense. His underlying numbers aren't great. Mantha's underlying numbers are very good.

Ristolainen could be a very good defenseman in a few years, but he's not exactly what this team needs right now. Goal scoring is something this team needs. Hence the reason most Wings fans would be upset by trading the teams best goal scorer.

With Seider and Hronek looking like legit top 4 right-handed defensemen of the future, where does Ristolainen fit in?

I'm not saying it wouldn't be a "fair trade", it's just not a trade I would be looking to make right now.

8 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

:lol: Yup

And in reality it would probably take Mantha + MacIssac + 2nd to maybe get it done. 

Now ^that^ trade would be extremely dumb for this team.

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11 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

It's not just about points. Ristolainen is a defenseman that doesn't really play much defense. His underlying numbers aren't great. Mantha's underlying numbers are very good.

Ristolainen could be a very good defenseman in a few years, but he's not exactly what this team needs right now. Goal scoring is something this team needs. Hence the reason most Wings fans would be upset by trading the teams best goal scorer.

With Seider and Hronek looking like legit top 4 right-handed defensemen of the future, where does Ristolainen fit in?

I'm not saying it wouldn't be a "fair trade", it's just not a trade I would be looking to make right now.

Now ^that^ trade would be extremely dumb for this team.

Propose a trade, KRS

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