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12 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

It's not just about points. Ristolainen is a defenseman that doesn't really play much defense. His underlying numbers aren't great. Mantha's underlying numbers are very good.

Ristolainen could be a very good defenseman in a few years, but he's not exactly what this team needs right now. Goal scoring is something this team needs. Hence the reason most Wings fans would be upset by trading the teams best goal scorer.

With Seider and Hronek looking like legit top 4 right-handed defensemen of the future, where does Ristolainen fit in?

I'm not saying it wouldn't be a "fair trade", it's just not a trade I would be looking to make right now.

Now ^that^ trade would be extremely dumb for this team.

A 25 goal winger + future Ouellet + the chance to draft another Ryan Sproul maybe

vs

legit top 4 , 40 pt D-man, 24 years old. 

lol "dumb" I know

you are over valuing our players and our ability to score big in the 2nd round. 

 

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12 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

Propose a trade, KRS

For a player we don't have a real need for? Not much. I think Mantha is good value for Ristolainen, but I personally wouldn't make that trade.

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9 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

It's not just about points. Ristolainen is a defenseman that doesn't really play much defense. His underlying numbers aren't great. Mantha's underlying numbers are very good.

Ristolainen could be a very good defenseman in a few years, but he's not exactly what this team needs right now. Goal scoring is something this team needs. Hence the reason most Wings fans would be upset by trading the teams best goal scorer.

With Seider and Hronek looking like legit top 4 right-handed defensemen of the future, where does Ristolainen fit in?

I'm not saying it wouldn't be a "fair trade", it's just not a trade I would be looking to make right now.

Now ^that^ trade would be extremely dumb for this team.

I was under the impression that we have a concern on D? Wouldn't Risto help in that dept - regardless of his +/-?

I like Mantha - I really do, but where he is today - can we expect him to evolve into this 35 plus goal scorer that's 'untouchable' when it comes to potential trade discussions?

This reminds me of the Trouba threads both here, and over at HF Boards...Mantha apparently brings more to this team than what some outsider could ever hope to - as in we value our own players more so, and downplay the value of others from a rival franchise...As for Trouba - he's doing what many Wing fans think is all ok, but according to many Jets fans - he was a jerk (and I totally agree with them - granted he's going by the rules currently in the CBA here, but lets be honest - Trouba is playing the role of a complete a$$hole)...Just think if we drafted some kid from 'Toronna' who was a life time Leaf fan did the same to us? We'd scream bloody f**king murder...Yeah - that went down this time last year only it happened to the NYI fanbase.

I carried on a little too long here, but I think y'all get my drift.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

A 25 goal winger + future Ouellet + the chance to draft another Ryan Sproul maybe

vs

legit top 4 , 40 pt D-man, 24 years old. 

lol "dumb" I know

you are over valuing our players and our ability to score big in the 2nd round. 

Sure, that's your opinion. I think you're undervaluing Mantha. Also, calling McIsaac a bust before he's ever played a pro game is dumb. The 2nd round pick, I could care less about. 

A legit top 4 defenseman that for whatever reason Buffalo wants to trade... 

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2 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Sure, that's your opinion. I think you're undervaluing Mantha. Also, calling McIsaac a bust before he's ever played a pro game is dumb. The 2nd round pick, I could care less about. 

A legit top 4 defenseman that for whatever reason Buffalo wants to trade... 

But that's where MacIssac was drafted. So you care about our 2nd round pick, but don't care about a 2nd round pick. ANYWHO.......

.......a realistic NHL trade should make any fan a little uncomfortable. Chances are, if you are happy with it, it ain't going to happen. And I'm telling you, it would take Mantha + to aquire that guy,. 

5 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

What about Bertuzzi + Cholowski?

Rather trade Mantha +MacIssac + 2nd

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8 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Sure, that's your opinion. I think you're undervaluing Mantha. Also, calling McIsaac a bust before he's ever played a pro game is dumb. The 2nd round pick, I could care less about. 

A legit top 4 defenseman that for whatever reason Buffalo wants to trade... 

They have a logjam at D

Dahlin - Ristolainen
Scandella - Montour
McCabe - Miller
Hunwick - Bogosian
Pilut - Jokiharju
Nelson - Hickey

Risto is probably the only one that's movable that will bring back a good return that they didn't just acquire
 

Edited by ChristopherReevesLegs

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3 minutes ago, F.Michael said:

I was under the impression that we have a concern on D? Wouldn't Risto help in that dept - regardless of his +/-?

I like Mantha - I really do, but where he is today - can we expect him to evolve into this 35 plus goal scorer that's 'untouchable' when it comes to potential trade discussions?

This reminds me of the Trouba threads both here, and over at HF Boards...Mantha apparently brings more to this team than what some outsider could ever hope to - as in we value our own players more so, and downplay the value of others from a rival franchise...As for Trouba - he's doing what many Wing fans think is all ok, but according to many Jets fans - he was a jerk (and I totally agree with them - granted he's going by the rules currently in the CBA here, but lets be honest - Trouba is playing the role of a complete a$$hole)...Just think if we drafted some kid from 'Toronna' who was a life time Leaf fan did the same to us? We'd scream bloody f**king murder...Yeah - that went down this time last year only it happened to the NYI fanbase.

I carried on a little too long here, but I think y'all get my drift.

I don't get your drift at all... What does Mantha have to do with Trouba? Are you saying that Mantha wants to get traded or bolt to Montreal when he becomes a UFA?

It's not just about his atrocious +/-, it's all of his underlying stats. Again, I don't know a ton about this kid, but from what I've seen and read, he's far from a legit top pair defenseman. Why would Buffalo trade him if he were? Everyone knows how difficult it is to acquire big, steady, minute munching defensemen. There's obviously a reason he's on the trade block, and I'm not trading our best goal scorer for that player.

I don't think Mantha is "untouchable", but I wouldn't trade him for Ristolainen. That's just me though.

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1 minute ago, krsmith17 said:

I don't get your drift at all... What does Mantha have to do with Trouba? Are you saying that Mantha wants to get traded or bolt to Montreal when he becomes a UFA?

It's not just about his atrocious +/-, it's all of his underlying stats. Again, I don't know a ton about this kid, but from what I've seen and read, he's far from a legit top pair defenseman. Why would Buffalo trade him if he were? Everyone knows how difficult it is to acquire big, steady, minute munching defensemen. There's obviously a reason he's on the trade block, and I'm not trading our best goal scorer for that player.

I don't think Mantha is "untouchable", but I wouldn't trade him for Ristolainen. That's just me though.

With Risto it's hard to say. He's still young and only ever been surrounded by awful teammates and D partners. So I give him some benefit of the doubt. Like I don't think he's an A grade guy defensively, but I also don't think -40 is reflective of his skill either.

I think the risk is: He might not be a legit top pairing Dman. But with that said, he'd probably be at least the best 2nd pair Dman in the league.

 

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11 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

What about Bertuzzi + Cholowski?

No. Again, I don't want Ristolainen...

6 minutes ago, The 91 of Ryans said:

But that's where MacIssac was drafted. So you care about our 2nd round pick, but don't care about a 2nd round pick. ANYWHO.......

.......a realistic NHL trade should make any fan a little uncomfortable. Chances are, if you are happy with it, it ain't going to happen. And I'm telling you, it would take Mantha + to aquire that guy,. 

What are you talking about? Hronek was a 2nd round pick too. Does he hold the same value as a 2nd round pick now? McIsaac was regarded as a steal in the 2nd round. I'm not saying I wouldn't trade McIsaac (or a 2nd round pick), but I wouldn't trade that package for Ristolainen.

If I felt Ristolainen was a player we really needed, I'd probably pull the trigger, but that's where we disagree. With the emergence of Hronek over the past year and the addition of Seider last month, I'm not giving up premium assets for another top 4 right-handed defenseman. A few years ago, I would have been all over a similar trade. Now, not so much.

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2 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

I don't get your drift at all... What does Mantha have to do with Trouba? Are you saying that Mantha wants to get traded or bolt to Montreal when he becomes a UFA?

It's not just about his atrocious +/-, it's all of his underlying stats. Again, I don't know a ton about this kid, but from what I've seen and read, he's far from a legit top pair defenseman. Why would Buffalo trade him if he were? Everyone knows how difficult it is to acquire big, steady, minute munching defensemen. There's obviously a reason he's on the trade block, and I'm not trading our best goal scorer for that player.

I don't think Mantha is "untouchable", but I wouldn't trade him for Ristolainen. That's just me though.

I apologize for the confusion...

Wings fans - like many fan bases tend to have a 'peculiar' opinion.

As for Trouba - we all know he probably wants to play in Detroit...From the start of his pro career - he's been difficult to negotiate with...Many here say 'bravo' - others say 'cawksucker'!....I tend to agree with those are aren't exactly happy with how's he's conducted himself over the past handful of years.

Risto - while not anything special - appears to have the makings of a good Dman in this league, but many Wing fans seem more interested in pointing out his faults while neglecting the fact that our very own Mantha isn't exactly lighting up the score sheet.

 

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10 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

They have a logjam at D

Dahlin - Ristolainen
Scandella - Montour
McCabe - Miller
Hunwick - Bogosian

Risto is probably the only one that's movable that will bring back a good return that they didn't just acquire
 

Key word, that they just acquired. They acquired these defensemen for a reason, and if they did so to trade a 24 year old top 4 defenseman, is that a player we should be giving up our best goal scorer for?

8 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

With Risto it's hard to say. He's still young and only ever been surrounded by awful teammates and D partners. So I give him some benefit of the doubt. Like I don't think he's an A grade guy defensively, but I also don't think -40 is reflective of his skill either.

I think the risk is: He might not be a legit top pairing Dman. But with that said, he'd probably be at least the best 2nd pair Dman in the league.

It's funny that you were using Zadina's +/- against him despite being one of the youngest players in the entire league, but you don't think Ristolainen's league worst +/- is reflective on his defensive game...

So hypothetically, who plays their off side between Seider, Hronek and Ristolainen?

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7 minutes ago, F.Michael said:

I apologize for the confusion...

Wings fans - like many fan bases tend to have a 'peculiar' opinion.

As for Trouba - we all know he probably wants to play in Detroit...From the start of his pro career - he's been difficult to negotiate with...Many here say 'bravo' - others say 'cawksucker'!....I tend to agree with those are aren't exactly happy with how's he's conducted himself over the past handful of years.

Risto - while not anything special - appears to have the makings of a good Dman in this league, but many Wing fans seem more interested in pointing out his faults while neglecting the fact that our very own Mantha isn't exactly lighting up the score sheet.

 

You don't trade Mantha on the heels of his dominant performance at the worlds. That would be foolish.

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3 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Key word, that they just acquired. They acquired these defensemen for a reason, and if they did so to trade a 24 year old top 4 defenseman, is that a player we should be giving up our best goal scorer for?

IDK man, Botterhill still seems to be rebuilding and is taking the shotgun approach to his defense.
If he thinks his future top4 is:

Dahlin - Jokiharju
Miller - Montour
+Anyone else who emerges

Then they can afford to trade him, pocket the cash (which they need), and get some decent players/picks to help out in other areas.

Anyway, I think Botterhill is just fishing for a knock your socks off deal. I think Risto will still be Buffalo come October, but that's just a feeling.

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3 minutes ago, SwedeLundin77 said:

You don't trade Mantha on the heels of his dominant performance at the worlds. That would be foolish.

not only the WC also his finish to the season with i think 15 points in the last 8 games

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7 minutes ago, F.Michael said:

Risto - while not anything special - appears to have the makings of a good Dman in this league, but many Wing fans seem more interested in pointing out his faults while neglecting the fact that our very own Mantha isn't exactly lighting up the score sheet.

Mantha scored 8 goals, 7 assists (15 points) in his last 8 games of last season. He then scored 7 goals, 7 assists (14 points) in 9 games at the World Championships. Sure, you can say "that was just another one of his hot streaks", or you can believe that maybe, just maybe, he's starting to put it all together and could be a dominant force through his prime years. I choose to believe the latter. I obviously don't think he's going to be close to a 2 points per game player, but I do think he could be close to a point per game player, and take over games and eventually playoff series', the way Franzen once did. I'd just hope that the cold streaks would be a little fewer and further between...

9 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

IDK man, Botterhill still seems to be rebuilding and is taking the shotgun approach to his defense.
If he thinks his future top4 is:

Dahlin - Jokiharju
Miller - Montour
+Anyone else who emerges

Then they can afford to trade him, pocket the cash (which they need), and get some decent players/picks to help out in other areas.

Anyway, I think Botterhill is just fishing for a knock your socks off deal. I think Risto will still be Buffalo come October, but that's just a feeling.

But my question is why not have Ristolainen part of that top 4 if he's as good as some people seem to believe? 

The bold I agree with.

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Just now, krsmith17 said:

Mantha scored 8 goals, 7 assists (15 points) in his last 8 games of last season. He then scored 7 goals, 7 assists (14 points) in 9 games at the World Championships. Sure, you can say "that was just another one of his hot streaks", or you can believe that maybe, just maybe, he's starting to put it all together and could be a dominant force through his prime years. I choose to believe the latter. I obviously don't think he's going to be close to a 2 points per game player, but I do think he could be close to a point per game player, and take over games and eventually playoff series', the way Franzen once did. I'd just hope that the cold streaks would be a little fewer and further between...

I like your optimism.

I too love the way he played - along with the rest of the team in the last 15 games of the season!

My point of view is that I'm on the fence as to where he goes from here...Will he be that late bloomer that can score 35 plus, or will he forever be a 'mid pack' winger by NHL standards?

 

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9 minutes ago, F.Michael said:

I like your optimism.

I too love the way he played - along with the rest of the team in the last 15 games of the season!

My point of view is that I'm on the fence as to where he goes from here...Will he be that late bloomer that can score 35 plus, or will he forever be a 'mid pack' winger by NHL standards?

So you either have a borderline elite winger that can pot 35+ goals, or a really good top six winger that can pot 25-30 goals. Win-Win in my opinion. Either way, I wouldn't trade him for Ristolainen, and it's not even so much to do with the player as it is to do with the type of player. He just doesn't fill a major need in my opinion.

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30 minutes ago, ely s said:

not only the WC also his finish to the season with i think 15 points in the last 8 games

Perfect. His trade value is at an all time high!

28 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

But my question is why not have Ristolainen part of that top 4 if he's as good as some people seem to believe?

Why did Subban get traded? Taylor Hall? Etc.

They have other needs and other Dmen ready to step up. He's just the odd man out and can fetch a nice return.

They've been trying with the guy for years, Botterhill might just want a fresh start.

Edited by ChristopherReevesLegs

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19 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

So you either have a borderline elite winger that can pot 35+ goals, or a really good top six winger that can pot 25-30 goals. Win-Win in my opinion. Either way, I wouldn't trade him for Ristolainen, and it's not even so much to do with the player as it is to do with the type of player. He just doesn't fill a major need in my opinion.

Which again begs the question...How desperate are we in need for a guy who'd become a top 4 dman on this team if we swung the trade?

Maybe I should ask...Where does Yzerman feel the need is the greatest?

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17 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

This doesn't even really have much to do with Ristolainen for me. There aren't many defensemen in the league I'd trade Mantha for right now. I still think he's only scratched the surface. I could easily see him flirt with 40 goals over the next few seasons (as early as next season). I wouldn't be against acquiring Ristolainen, I just wouldn't even consider trading Mantha right now. I mean sure, if they offer the other Rasmus, I'd do it, but not for this Rasmus...

Fair.

If it's me in the GM chair, I don't have much of an appetite for trading any of our top players at this time. Like, I'd love to trade a Brassard for a Zibanejad, but...do we even have a spare Brassard lying around?

It's probably going to be a couple more years before our tank drafts really begin to bear fruit. At that time, we'll have a better idea of what we have and what we need.

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41 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Perfect. His trade value is at an all time high!

Yes, his trade value is definitely at an all time high. I wonder if there are any young, up and coming teams in the middle of a rebuild that would be interested in a 24 year old 30 goal scorer...

43 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Why did Subban get traded? Taylor Hall? Etc.

They have other needs and other Dmen ready to step up. He's just the odd man out and can fetch a nice return.

They've been trying with the guy for years, Botterhill might just want a fresh start.

Sure. Isn't that why pretty much any hockey trade goes down? Does that make it the right decision though? I asked earlier (wasn't answered...), do you think the Hall trade was a good one? Or was it a dumb trade that happened only because the Oilers felt they had a need on defense and a surplus of wingers?

We don't need Ristolainen and we certainly don't need to trade one of our best young players just entering his prime. 

34 minutes ago, F.Michael said:

Which again begs the question...How desperate are we in need for a guy who'd become a top 4 dman on this team if we swung the trade?

Maybe I should ask...Where does Yzerman feel the need is the greatest?

Yeah, Yzerman would have to answer that question, but in my opinion, I think we need a pure goal scorer like Mantha more than we need another top 4 right-handed defenseman like Ristolainen.

I've asked this question several times now, but if we were to acquire Ristolainen, where does he fit into our future defense core? Who is he pushing out?

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2 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Yes, his trade value is definitely at an all time high. I wonder if there are any young, up and coming teams in the middle of a rebuild that would be interested in a 24 year old 30 goal scorer...

Sure. Isn't that why pretty much any hockey trade goes down? Does that make it the right decision though? I asked earlier (wasn't answered...), do you think the Hall trade was a good one? Or was it a dumb trade that happened only because the Oilers felt they had a need on defense and a surplus of wingers?

We don't need Ristolainen and we certainly don't need to trade one of our best young players just entering his prime. 

If the Sabres are in an Oilers with Hall or Preds with Subban type situation with Risto, I think we should definitely take advantage. NJD has pulled off two robberies this way already.

I disagree that we don't need a player like Risto. Defense is our biggest need by far IMO. If you don't think we need a young borderline stud level Dman then what do we need? I think that's the point F Michael was trying to make with Trouba... You desperately wanted to add Trouba, but now that a similar Dman is available, suddenly we don't have a need for D anymore...

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46 minutes ago, F.Michael said:

Which again begs the question...How desperate are we in need for a guy who'd become a top 4 dman on this team if we swung the trade?

Maybe I should ask...Where does Yzerman feel the need is the greatest?

I reckon Yzerman would say we have needs at every position and that these needs are so numerous that trying to rank them in order of severity is basically pointless. I mean, a 1D would be great and Yzerman should be receptive to any conversations that could perhaps lead to us getting a player who could perhaps become that 1D -- but my impression is scouts and GMs generally aren't all that interested in our players, which would make the "Would you trade Mantha/AA for [insert really good young defenseman]?" conversations kinda moot.

Then again, you never know. Certainly we never hear about 98% of the conversations GMs have with each other. Maybe Chuck Fletcher is willing to sell low on Ivan Provorov after his disappointing 2018-19 season.

Edited by Dabura

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