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Anyone not named Larkin, should be in play for Risto if the option is available in my opinion.

Most of Risto flaws can be easily summed up in 3 reasons.

 1.Buffalo

 2.Buffalo

3.He's 24

The guy 24, hits and blocks everything that moves 6'4 220lb and can play huge mins with 4 straight season of 40+ points. Oh and just happens to shot right. He's a power play beast, god knows we need help on the power play.

 

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3 minutes ago, xault said:

Anyone not named Larkin, should be in play for Risto if the option is available in my opinion.

Most of Risto flaws can be easily summed up in 3 reasons.

 1.Buffalo

 2.Buffalo

3.He's 24

The guy 24, hits and blocks everything that moves 6'4 220lb and can play huge mins with 4 straight season of 40+ points. Oh and just happens to shot right. He's a power play beast, god knows we need help on the power play.

 

If Yzerman doesn't pull off Mantha for Risto it will be the biggest Wings gaf since Franzen over Hossa

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23 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

If the Sabres are in an Oilers with Hall or Preds with Subban type situation with Risto, I think we should definitely take advantage. NJD has pulled off two robberies this way already.

I disagree that we don't need a player like Risto. Defense is our biggest need by far IMO. If you don't think we need a young borderline stud level Dman then what do we need? I think that's the point F Michael was trying to make with Trouba... You desperately wanted to add Trouba, but now that a similar Dman is available, suddenly we don't have a need for D anymore...

Borderline stud? Again, that's where we disagree. I would say Trouba > Ristolainen. Also, the majority of the Trouba talk from me was pre-draft. Now that we have Seider and Hronek on the right side, I don't see a major need to add there. I'd still be open to signing Trouba as a free agent next summer (if he is a UFA at that time), but that's giving up no assets. It wouldn't be as big a blow if we didn't get him now anyway.

What do we need more than defense right now? In my opinion, pure goal scorers. We have a lot of promising young players / prospects, but none that play the game Mantha does. Big, strong, power-forward that can snipe from anywhere. He will score 30, the only question for me is will he score 35+ on the regular. I think he could, and he showed what he is capable of in the last 30 games he played.

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5 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

Borderline stud? Again, that's where we disagree. I would say Trouba > Ristolainen. Also, the majority of the Trouba talk from me was pre-draft. Now that we have Seider and Hronek on the right side, I don't see a major need to add there. I'd still be open to signing Trouba as a free agent next summer (if he is a UFA at that time), but that's giving up no assets. It wouldn't be as big a blow if we didn't get him now anyway.

What do we need more than defense right now? In my opinion, pure goal scorers. We have a lot of promising young players / prospects, but none that play the game Mantha does. Big, strong, power-forward that can snipe from anywhere. He will score 30, the only question for me is will he score 35+ on the regular. I think he could, and he showed what he is capable of in the last 30 games he played.

Ok, we got Mantha, Larkin, AA, and Betuzzi who are all proficient at scoring goals. With Zadina, Rasmussen, and Veleno on the way. How many more goal scorers do we need to add?

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5 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Ok, we got Mantha, Larkin, AA, and Betuzzi who are all proficient at scoring goals. With Zadina, Rasmussen, and Veleno on the way. How many more goal scorers do we need to add?

So basically you think any forward is a "goal scorer"... Larkin is not a "goal scorer". Bertuzzi is not a "goal scorer". Rasmussen is not a "goal scorer". Veleno is not a "goal scorer". We have Mantha, Athanasiou and Zadina. That's it. Mantha being the best of the three as of now.

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5 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

So basically you think any forward is a "goal scorer"... Larkin is not a "goal scorer". Bertuzzi is not a "goal scorer". Rasmussen is not a "goal scorer". Veleno is not a "goal scorer". We have Mantha, Athanasiou and Zadina. That's it. Mantha being the best of the three as of now.

Scoring 32 goals doesn't make you a goal scorer?
Rasmussen is literally known for most of his points being goals.
Veleno scored nearly as many goals as Zadina did in juniors this year.
Bertuzzi in his first breakout year had nearly as many goals as Mantha.

Please enlighten me on what your arbitrary criteria for a goal scorer is. I was under the impression it's guys who score goals, but what'd I know eh.

Edited by ChristopherReevesLegs

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11 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Scoring 32 goals doesn't make you a goal scorer?
Rasmussen is literally known for most of his points being goals.
Veleno scored nearly as many goals as Zadina did in juniors this year.
Bertuzzi in his first breakout year had nearly as many goals as Mantha.

Please enlighten me on what your arbitrary criteria for a goal scorer is. I was under the impression it's guys who score goals, but what'd I know eh.

C'mon man, you can't be serious... Your definition of a goal scorer is any player that can score goals? 

I guess all those players are "playmakers" too because they can pass the puck / get assists?... 

My definition of a goal scorer would be a player that primarily score goals. None of those players are on the same level as our three "goal scorers" in my opinion. 

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1 minute ago, krsmith17 said:

C'mon man, you can't be serious... Your definition of a goal scorer is any player that can score goals? 

I guess all those players are "playmakers" too because they can pass the puck / get assists?... 

My definition of a goal scorer would be a player that primarily score goals. None of those players are on the same level as our three "goal scorers" in my opinion. 

Yes my definition of a goal scorer is a player who scores a lot of goals. What's confusing about that to you?

And yes if they get a lot of assists they can be a playmaker too... what bizzaro world did I just enter where you can only be one or the other? Stamkos had more assists than goals this year, is he in your eyes suddenly not a goal scorer anymore??

By your definition Jon Ericsson is a goal scorer based on this past season.

 

29 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

 Larkin is not a "goal scorer". Bertuzzi is not a "goal scorer".

 

9 minutes ago, krsmith17 said:

None of those players are on the same level as our three "goal scorers" in my opinion. 

I am confused. Is Larkin a goal scorer or not? Because in one instance you say he's not and the next he's one of our main 3... or did you mean Bertuzzi?

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16 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Yes my definition of a goal scorer is a player who scores a lot of goals. What's confusing about that to you?

And yes if they get a lot of assists they can be a playmaker too... what bizzaro world did I just enter where you can only be one or the other? Stamkos had more assists than goals this year, is he in your eyes suddenly not a goal scorer anymore??

By your definition Jon Ericsson is a goal scorer based on this past season.

I am confused. Is Larkin a goal scorer or not? Because in one instance you say he's not and the next he's one of our main 3... or did you mean Bertuzzi?

A "goal scorer" is a player that is known for his goal scoring. A "playmaker" is a player that is known for his playmaking. Does Larkin score goals? Yes. Is that what he's known for? No. Same goes for the rest of the guys you mentioned in my opinion.

I'm not even touching the Ericsson comment...

I never once said Larkin was one of our three goal scorers. The three goal scorers that I was referring to are Mantha, to a lesser extent, Athanasiou, and hopefully soon, Zadina.

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AA has been a better goal scorer than Mantha. Mantha is better suited to the PP, but AA kills him at ES. AA has probably the best one-timer on the team, so it's possible he could become a focal point of our PP strategy now, and change that first part. It's possible Mantha will show that his end to the season was more than just a hot streak, but it's more likely that he just is what he is: A decent top-6 secondary scorer. He'll probably have better seasons statistically as the team improves, but probably won't actually get any better in terms of ability.

That said, Risto is not good enough to be worth giving up important assets. While it might be enticing to dismiss his negatives as just being on a bad team, remember that a team is just a collection of individuals. If Buffalo is "bad", it's stands to reason that the guy playing 40% of the game is at least not that good himself. His relative numbers are generally poor as well. You might want to chalk it up to bad coaching, but his coach for two of last three seasons is our current assistant. This article is a bit old, but I don't think much has changed.

Mantha, AA and Bert are going to be 25 this year. We have maybe four seasons of them at their peak, and maybe as many as four more before they decline too much. Larkin is not that much younger. We also want as much time as possible to allow for tweaks to the roster. Remember it was five years ago that TB went to the finals and everyone started saying they were on the cusp. They haven't been back since, and one year didn't even make the playoffs. A lot can go wrong in a season. We need to add as much as possible, as soon as possible, while losing as little as possible.

Yes, it kind of sucks that we don't have good defensemen at their peak now that we have some forwards who are. But we don't have enough of those forwards to make trading one for a defenseman a net improvement. It's just trading one hole for another. If we want a scoring defenseman who isn't good defensively, Gardiner is still out there, or we could aim for Barrie (who's both better defensively and an actual elite scorer) next summer. Otherwise aim for cheap targets while hoping our kids develop quickly.

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I would be all in for a player that would help us right now, but does our team change to the better now when we trade for a player like risto? He is still a work in progress, so basically almost the same as our prospects, and we would loose core players for him. No point in doing that, because there wouldn´t be an roster improvement. Further do we have too many defensemen without trade value signed for this year. Unless you get him for our "spare" 2nd and 3rd picks and/or a prospect, I can´t see any value in doing so.

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6 hours ago, Buppy said:

AA has been a better goal scorer than Mantha. Mantha is better suited to the PP, but AA kills him at ES. AA has probably the best one-timer on the team, so it's possible he could become a focal point of our PP strategy now, and change that first part. It's possible Mantha will show that his end to the season was more than just a hot streak, but it's more likely that he just is what he is: A decent top-6 secondary scorer. He'll probably have better seasons statistically as the team improves, but probably won't actually get any better in terms of ability.

You should also point out though that at 5on5, for the most part Athanasiou is getting matched up against 2nd/3rd line / 2nd/3rd pair competition, while Mantha is getting matched up against 1st line / 1st pair competition.

I don't think there's a huge gap between Mantha and Athanasiou in terms of pure goal scoring ability, though I would give the slight edge to Mantha. Mantha has been a better goal scorer at ever level, including when they played together in Grand Rapids.

I don't think Athanasiou would score quite as much as Mantha playing on the top line. At the same time, I don't think Mantha would score quite as much as Athanasiou playing on the 2nd/3rd line. Athanasiou is simply better at creating opportunities for himself with his speed. AA can and has taken full advantage of lower level competition, which is why I see him an ideal middle 6 winger. Mantha is in every way a top line winger in my opinion.

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3 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

You should also point out though that at 5on5, for the most part Athanasiou is getting matched up against 2nd/3rd line / 2nd/3rd pair competition, while Mantha is getting matched up against 1st line / 1st pair competition.

I don't think there's a huge gap between Mantha and Athanasiou in terms of pure goal scoring ability, though I would give the slight edge to Mantha. Mantha has been a better goal scorer at ever level, including when they played together in Grand Rapids.

I don't think Athanasiou would score quite as much as Mantha playing on the top line. At the same time, I don't think Mantha would score quite as much as Athanasiou playing on the 2nd/3rd line. Athanasiou is simply better at creating opportunities for himself with his speed. AA can and has taken full advantage of lower level competition, which is why I see him an ideal middle 6 winger. Mantha is in every way a top line winger in my opinion.

AA scored more goals than Mantha last year.  

All your jibber jabber doesnt change the scoreboard.

Larkin>AA>Mantha.

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24 minutes ago, Jonas Mahonas said:

AA scored more goals than Mantha last year.  

All your jibber jabber doesnt change the scoreboard.

Larkin>AA>Mantha.

In more games against lesser competition.

If you think that doesn't change anything, cool, but it absolutely does.

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We were the 4th worst team in the league last year.  I hate to say this as I'm usually pro "accumulate talent based on priority of needs"...but we need major help in every area.  Offense, defense, goal-scorers, shut down D, offensive D, puck movers, ....you name it and we pretty much need it.  I'd lean towards best available talent with the best contract terms for the Wings and our 3-5 year roadmap.  We could debate the bigger wants/needs for months, and maybe Stevie and the Wings brass have a better idea of what gaps to fill first, but the reality is that we need a lot on both ends of the ice.  Just my $.02

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12 hours ago, Buppy said:

Yes, it kind of sucks that we don't have good defensemen at their peak now that we have some forwards who are. But we don't have enough of those forwards to make trading one for a defenseman a net improvement. It's just trading one hole for another.

This.

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18 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

A "goal scorer" is a player that is known for his goal scoring. A "playmaker" is a player that is known for his playmaking. Does Larkin score goals? Yes. Is that what he's known for? No. Same goes for the rest of the guys you mentioned in my opinion.

Who decides that? You?

Rasmussen typically scores more goals than he has assists... but he's not a goal scorer?
Stamkos had more assists than goals... is he a playmaker in your book?

Your definitions of who is what are completely arbitrary and made up.

So when you decided this teams need is "more goal scorers" I'm assuming Larkin's 32 goals didn't factor in? What if Larkin scores 50 goals this year? Will those not count against our need, cause that's not what he's "known for"?

 

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4 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

Who decides that? You?

Rasmussen typically scores more goals than he has assists... but he's not a goal scorer?
Stamkos had more assists than goals... is he a playmaker in your book?

Your definitions of who is what are completely arbitrary and made up.

So when you decided this teams need is "more goal scorers" I'm assuming Larkin's 32 goals didn't factor in? What if Larkin scores 50 goals this year? Will those not count against our need, cause that's not what he's "known for"?

Sure, completely arbitrary. Isn't most everything we discuss here just that? Hence being "my definition". If you think any player that scores a goal should be labeled a "goal scorer", by all means... I think a goal scorer is a player that has a lethal shot and can score from anywhere on the ice, in a multitude of different ways. Again, my definition.

Rasmussen very well may become a goal scorer, but as of now, I don't see it. Same with Bertuzzi. Larkin could be labeled a goal scorer.

Stamkos has been one of the better goal scorers in the league for the past decade, so yeah, I'd consider him a "goal scorer" for sure.

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1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

Sure, completely arbitrary. Isn't most everything we discuss here just that? Hence being "my definition".

? No, not everything we discuss here is arbitrary personal whim... And I think if you're going to label players as goal-scorers and say we need more of them you should have some idea of what that is, or a clear definition of what that is. Your definition keeps changing every time I ask you about it.

First it was "a player who primarily scores goals". Next it was "a player who is known for their goal scoring". Now it's "a goal scorer is a player that has a lethal shot and can score from anywhere on the ice, in a multitude of different ways."

1 hour ago, krsmith17 said:

Rasmussen very well may become a goal scorer, but as of now, I don't see it. Same with Bertuzzi. Larkin could be labeled a goal scorer.

So now all of the sudden Rasmussen, Bertuzzi, and Larkin could be goal scorers? But earlier you said they're not? What gives?

 

I'd say this, our team was 21st in the league in goals for, and 27th in the league in goals against. To me that screams you need help on the back end more than the front.... On the front end we only had 4 players break the 20 goal mark, and I would therefore call them our goal scorers. That's Larkin, AA, Bertuzzi, and Mantha. I really don't give a flying f*** what they're "known for" or what they're assist totals look like, these are the 4 players who quite literally score goals way more than our other players do. Larkin also brings playmaking and speed, AA also brings speed, Mantha also brings size, Bertuzzi also brings grit, but I'm not willing to say 32 goal Larkin Isn't a goal-scorer just because he's "known" for something else. If you score 30 goals in this league you're known for your ability to score goals.

Edited by ChristopherReevesLegs

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47 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

? No, not everything we discuss here is arbitrary personal whim... And I think if you're going to label players as goal-scorers and say we need more of them you should have some idea of what that is, or a clear definition of what that is. Your definition keeps changing every time I ask you about it.

First it was "a player who primarily scores goals". Next it was "a player who is known for their goal scoring". Now it's "a goal scorer is a player that has a lethal shot and can score from anywhere on the ice, in a multitude of different ways."

Are those three loose definitions really all that different though? All define what I believe to be a "goal scorer". Better than your definition of any player that scores a goal...

47 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said:

So now all of the sudden Rasmussen, Bertuzzi, and Larkin could be goal scorers? But earlier you said they're not? What gives?

I'd say this, our team was 21st in the league in goals for, and 27th in the league in goals against. To me that screams you need help on the back end more than the front.... On the front end we only had 4 players break the 20 goal mark, and I would therefore call them our goal scorers. That's Larkin, AA, Bertuzzi, and Mantha. I really don't give a flying f*** what they're "known for" or what they're assist totals look like, these are the 4 players who quite literally score goals way more than our other players do. Larkin also brings playmaking and speed, AA also brings speed, Mantha also brings size, Bertuzzi also brings grit, but I'm not willing to say 32 goal Larkin Isn't a goal-scorer just because he's "known" for something else. If you score 30 goals in this league you're known for your ability to score goals.

Yes, I suppose any player could be a goal scorer, but like I said, I highly doubt I would consider either of Rasmussen or Bertuzzi to be goal scorers at any point in their NHL careers. 

Our team was ranked 21st in goals for, with the majority of our best young forwards already on the team. Veleno and Zadina should make a difference in a few years. Veleno, setting guys up (playmaker), and Zadina, scoring goals (goal scorer). Maybe a Berggren or another player surprises, but aside from that, Larkin, Mantha, Bertuzzi and Athanasiou are our core forwards.

Our team was ranked 27th in goals against, with the majority of our best young defensemen yet to see full time duty in the NHL. Hronek and Cholowski played half seasons as rookies. We just drafted Seider who could be a stud. We also have a whole slew of other young defensemen that could surprise. Kronwall, Ericsson and Daley are all past their prime / bad.

I think our defense is much better going forward. You disagree, and that's fine. Regardless though, I think it would be dumb to trade our best goal scorer, plus possibly other assets for a top 4 defenseman.

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8 hours ago, krsmith17 said:

You should also point out though that at 5on5, for the most part Athanasiou is getting matched up against 2nd/3rd line / 2nd/3rd pair competition, while Mantha is getting matched up against 1st line / 1st pair competition.

I don't think there's a huge gap between Mantha and Athanasiou in terms of pure goal scoring ability, though I would give the slight edge to Mantha. Mantha has been a better goal scorer at ever level, including when they played together in Grand Rapids.

I don't think Athanasiou would score quite as much as Mantha playing on the top line. At the same time, I don't think Mantha would score quite as much as Athanasiou playing on the 2nd/3rd line. Athanasiou is simply better at creating opportunities for himself with his speed. AA can and has taken full advantage of lower level competition, which is why I see him an ideal middle 6 winger. Mantha is in every way a top line winger in my opinion.

I like how now you want to say that playing with Helm and Glendening makes it easier to score. :)

When they both played in GR, AA scored 24g in 81gp, Mantha 36g in 122gp. Virtually identical rate. I suppose you'll use the 8 in 10 he scored the year after AA had already graduated to say Mantha was better, but I'm sure you'd also scream bloody murder if that situation was reversed.

In the NHL, overall rates are very similar, though Mantha had been given better opportunities. I would say AA has been better in two of three seasons.

To say AA is not a legit top-6 forward after a 30 goal season is just absurd. 

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2 minutes ago, Buppy said:

I like how now you want to say that playing with Helm and Glendening makes it easier to score. :)

When they both played in GR, AA scored 24g in 81gp, Mantha 36g in 122gp. Virtually identical rate. I suppose you'll use the 8 in 10 he scored the year after AA had already graduated to say Mantha was better, but I'm sure you'd also scream bloody murder if that situation was reversed.

In the NHL, overall rates are very similar, though Mantha had been given better opportunities. I would say AA has been better in two of three seasons.

To say AA is not a legit top-6 forward after a 30 goal season is just absurd. 

I didn't mention his linemates... As I said, Athanasiou can self create, better than anyone on the team and most guys in the entire league. I also never said Athanasiou is not a top six winger... I just like him in a middle six role, for the reason stated above.

"Virtually identical rates". "Overall rates are very similar". Mantha did have the slight edge, no? I guess I was right in saying that I'd give the slight edge to Mantha then... Again, I don't think there's a huge difference in overall goal scoring ability between the two, but I do think Mantha is slightly better.

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