Howard > Vokoun

[Guest Crymson]

I know there were many people who wished that Holland would have offered the starting job to Vokoun so as to entice him to join the team instead of signing with the Capitals. It seems now that Holland certainly made the right choice. Howard currently has a .930 SV% to Vokoun's .910, a 1.91 GAA to Vokoun's 2.81, and a far higher win percentage.

Yay for Jimmy!

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

It was never a question of having either/or.

Having him as a backup or 1B goaltender would have been huge. And behind a Detroit system that doesn't have its own head up its ass I think he would do very well. In fact, that would probably be the best goaltending duo in the league, perhaps behind Thomas/Rask.

Either way, it is great to see Howard do so well. Really crazy how people argued that this guy would never make it as a consistent NHL backup, let alone a bona fide starter.

[Guest Crymson]

The reason why Vokoun didn't come to Detroit was that he wasn't willing to be a 1B or a backup. He wanted to be the undisputed starter. Holland and Babcock weren't willing to give him this. The Caps were. He signed there, and he was announced as the starter within days.

So it was a matter of having either/or.

[sputman 1,268]

i just checked the current shots against stats for both goalies and, wow:

vokoun - 588

howard - 764

yay howard, indeed.

boo, defense.

[jstwatchin 23]

That's in 22 vs 29 games played. Average shots per game faced is pretty even between the two. Howard has seen the 4th least shots per game out of the the top 30 goalies in SA. Defense has been good, Howard has been great!

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

It was never a question of having either/or.

Having him as a backup or 1B goaltender would have been huge. And behind a Detroit system that doesn't have its own head up its ass I think he would do very well. In fact, that would probably be the best goaltending duo in the league, perhaps behind Thomas/Rask.

Either way, it is great to see Howard do so well. Really crazy how people argued that this guy would never make it as a consistent NHL backup, let alone a bona fide starter.

You're spoiling the fun with your reasonable response. This is basically an "I told you so/Holland is perfect!" thread.

Who knows whether Vokoun needed a guarantee or not, but I can't fault the guy for not wanting to come to a team that already had a very solid #1 guy in Howard. Especially given Detroit's handling of goalies in the past. It could've turned into a s***storm for him.

1A 1B with those two would've been awesome though.

As for Howard, it's great that he has become a solid goalie for the Wings and absolutely capable of winning a Cup with the Wings. He was so stellar in college, I think when he didn't tear it up in the AHL it gave people some pause. Then he had some rebound control issues early in his NHL career. But the guy's a stud now.

[GoWings1905 2,694]

The reason why Vokoun didn't come to Detroit was that he wasn't willing to be a 1B or a backup. He wanted to be the undisputed starter. Holland and Babcock weren't willing to give him this. The Caps were. He signed there, and he was announced as the starter within days.

So it was a matter of having either/or.

Not entirely true. Neuvirth actually started the season opener for the Capitals and Boudreau had implied when Vokoun signed, that he was likely going to pretty much split time between the two goalies. Vokoun started well (as did the team) and Neuvirth missed some time. Even now, Neuvirth is getting most of the starts lately so I wouldn't call Vokoun an undisputed starter by any stretch.

Even if Vokoun doesn't outplay Howard with the Red Wings, he would still be one of the best backup goalies in the league and give Detroit an elite tandem in goal. Instead, Howard is getting overplayed because Conklin has been awful in every start except his first.

[Guest Crymson]

i just checked the current shots against stats for both goalies and, wow:

vokoun - 588

howard - 764

yay howard, indeed.

boo, defense.

Howard has played in eight more games. He's facing roughly three less shots per game than is Vokoun.

Not entirely true. Neuvirth actually started the season opener for the Capitals and Boudreau had implied when Vokoun signed, that he was likely going to pretty much split time between the two goalies. Vokoun started well (as did the team) and Neuvirth missed some time. Even now, Neuvirth is getting most of the starts lately so I wouldn't call Vokoun an undisputed starter by any stretch.

Boudreau announced Vokoun as Washington's starter almost immediately after he was signed. Neuvirth started the season as the backup.

Even if Vokoun doesn't outplay Howard with the Red Wings, he would still be one of the best backup goalies in the league and give Detroit an elite tandem in goal. Instead, Howard is getting overplayed because Conklin has been awful in every start except his first.

There's not a chance Vokoun would have agreed to be a backup goalie. He left Florida and took a massive salary cut so that he could have a better chance of winning a Cup. He'd not have entertained the idea of playing for a team on which he very possibly might end up riding the pine in the playoffs.

Edited December 22, 2011 by Crymson

[sputman 1,268]

That's in 22 vs 29 games played. Average shots per game faced is pretty even between the two. Howard has seen the 4th least shots per game out of the the top 30 goalies in SA. Defense has been good, Howard has been great!

ah, yeah, i should have checked games played. good point.

[GoWings1905 2,694]

Howard has played in eight more games. He's facing roughly three less shots per game than is Vokoun.

Boudreau announced Vokoun as Washington's starter almost immediately after he was signed. Neuvirth started the season as the backup.

There's not a chance Vokoun would have agreed to be a backup goalie. He left Florida and took a massive salary cut so that he could have a better chance of winning a Cup. He'd not have entertained the idea of playing for a team on which he very possibly might end up riding the pine in the playoffs.

If there was no chance of Vokoun agreeing to play a backup role, I guess I don't understand why the Red Wings would have been in his final two of potential destinations. Holland and Babcock have always been high on Howard, so it's not like there was any doubt Howard would get every shot to be the starting goalie. Obviously, you look at Howard and Neuvirth and the decision is relatively easy, but there's still a decent chance Vokoun is on the bench should the Capitals make the playoffs.

Edited December 22, 2011 by GoWings1905

[Guest Crymson]

If there was no chance of Vokoun agreeing to play a backup role, I guess I don't understand why the Red Wings would have been in his final two of potential destinations. Holland and Babcock have always been high on Howard, so it's not like there was any doubt Howard would get every shot to be the starting goalie. Obviously, you look at Howard and Neuvirth and the decision is relatively easy, but there's still a decent chance Vokoun is on the bench should the Capitals make the playoffs.

I think Vokoun felt there was a decent possibility, given Howard's shaky performance last season, of being named the starter for the Wings. It seems likely that he was told this would not be happening, and chose Washington--whose coach was more than willing to give him that job from the start--instead as a result.

As for Vokoun's chances of riding the pine in the playoffs: any goalie is at risk of this. However, the starting gig wouldn't have been his from the start in Detroit, and it was in Washington.

I've never understood the mentality some have here on the Vokoun issue, i.e. "Why didn't Holland sign him? We'd have had a great goaltending tandem!" Vokoun didn't leave Florida and take a 75% cut in pay so that he could play as goalie 1b; he did so in search of a Cup win as a team's #1 goalie.

Edited December 22, 2011 by Crymson

[LeftWinger 4,961]

Well, I don't see Vokoun being the #1 starter in Washington to this date, they are split pretty even, so it's like he is in the 1A 1B system anyway. I know he would not be happy here if he was getting Conklin-type starts, but I got feeling, if Washington does again, what Washington normally does in the playoffs, we could very well be looking at Vokoun in a Wings jersey next season as or 1B goalie. And that would be a welcome sight. (no offense to Conklin)

[Nightfall 871]

You're spoiling the fun with your reasonable response. This is basically an "I told you so/Holland is perfect!" thread.

Who knows whether Vokoun needed a guarantee or not, but I can't fault the guy for not wanting to come to a team that already had a very solid #1 guy in Howard. Especially given Detroit's handling of goalies in the past. It could've turned into a s***storm for him.

1A 1B with those two would've been awesome though.

As for Howard, it's great that he has become a solid goalie for the Wings and absolutely capable of winning a Cup with the Wings. He was so stellar in college, I think when he didn't tear it up in the AHL it gave people some pause. Then he had some rebound control issues early in his NHL career. But the guy's a stud now.

Its very easy to look in hindsight and say that the right decision was made. I remember back in 2007 when the Wings signed Dallas Drake and many wings fans on this very forum were all over Holland asking why they signed him. The quotes I remember were "He's washed up" and "Worthless signing". Very few were positive. After they won the cup on 08, everyone cheered.

I think that Crymson is right here. Holland did make the right move.

I don't see you popping in threads where Holland was wrong and posting the "I told you so/Holland is an idiot" comment. Many threads on this forum point out a hindsight decision. Half the people here are right and half are wrong.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Its very easy to look in hindsight and say that the right decision was made. I remember back in 2007 when the Wings signed Dallas Drake and many wings fans on this very forum were all over Holland asking why they signed him. The quotes I remember were "He's washed up" and "Worthless signing". Very few were positive. After they won the cup on 08, everyone cheered.

I think that Crymson is right here. Holland did make the right move.

I don't see you popping in threads where Holland was wrong and posting the "I told you so/Holland is an idiot" comment. Many threads on this forum point out a hindsight decision. Half the people here are right and half are wrong.

I'm confused if you're arguing for or against me.

The OP stated that many people here wanted Holland to guarantee Vokoun the starting job to bring him here to Detroit, which isn't true at all. Of the handful of people who were interested in Vokoun coming to Detroit, I remember most of them saying he and Jimmy should compete for the starting job. There's a huge difference from wishing for the dream scenario that Jimmy and Vokoun were our two goaltenders, and actually relegating Jimmy to the backup role and guaranteeing the starting job to Vokoun.

So Crymson brings up Jimmy's superior stats as an "I told ya so" for a premise that isn't even true. Was there even one person who actually said they thought Vokoun should be guaranteed the starting job to come to Detroit?

Edited December 23, 2011 by haroldsnepsts

[Nightfall 871]

I'm confused if you're arguing for or against me.

The OP stated that many people here wanted Holland to guarantee Vokoun the starting job to bring him here to Detroit, which isn't true at all. Of the handful of people who were interested in Vokoun coming to Detroit, I remember most of them saying he and Jimmy should compete for the starting job. There's a huge difference from wishing for the dream scenario that Jimmy and Vokoun were our two goaltenders, and actually relegating Jimmy to the backup role and guaranteeing the starting job to Vokoun.

So Crymson brings up Jimmy's superior stats as an "I told ya so" for a premise that isn't even true. Was there even one person who actually said they thought Vokoun should be guaranteed the starting job to come to Detroit?

I am arguing for you.

I think there were some people here who wanted Vokoun to come to Detroit and given the starter job just based on his past performance and Howards average regular season performance last season.

Edited December 23, 2011 by Nightfall

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

I am arguing for you.

I think there were some people here who wanted Vokoun to come to Detroit and given the starter job just based on his past performance and Howards average regular season performance last season.

Well then I agree with you!

Seriously though, my memory is that people wanted him here to compete with Jimmy for the starting job. I don't remember many, if any, saying he should be given it over Howard.