Cherry rips Holland

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029]

Hes a young guy who is going to be a third liner in this league, one of the most physical players in the game and a solid fighter. He would be the perfect type for the wings to offer up a pick or something for.

It also hurts seeing Ferraro drafted over a guy like Kyle Clifford who would also be a perfect fit for what the wings need.

Yeah Martin has 10 points in 40 games this season, compared to 14 in 68 last year, so he's no slouch. Clifford's at about the same offensive pace he was last season for ~15 points.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Bring Back The Bruise Bros

[newfy 695]

Yeah Martin has 10 points in 40 games this season, compared to 14 in 68 last year, so he's no slouch. Clifford's at about the same offensive pace he was last season for ~15 points.

He was the captain of the sting when I had season tickets and is from near my hometown so I kinda like him more than most would but the kid hits everything that moves, its too bad the wings couldnt offer Miller to the Isles for Martin straight up and just throw him on our fourth line to watch him and Abby raise hell

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros 1,029]

He was the captain of the sting when I had season tickets and is from near my hometown so I kinda like him more than most would but the kid hits everything that moves, its too bad the wings couldnt offer Miller to the Isles for Martin straight up and just throw him on our fourth line to watch him and Abby raise hell

Well the Isles will be sellers at the deadline, no doubt, not sure who they are willing to get rid of. Tavares, Moulson, Grabner, and Streit may be the only untouchables, right now. On defense, I like Hamonic from the Isles as well.

[redwingfan19 293]

Columbus is a mess right now and will be in fire sale mode. Boll would be a great addition and I would trade anyone from the bottom 6 not named Helm and Abby for him.

What is stopping Kenny from doing this again???

Edited January 11, 2012 by redwingfan19

[esteef 2,679]

Columbus is a mess right now and will be in fire sale mode. Boll would be a great addition and I would trade anyone from the bottom 6 not named Helm and Abby for him.

What is stopping Kenny from doing this again???

His "scoring potential".

esteef

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

Columbus is a mess right now and will be in fire sale mode. Boll would be a great addition and I would trade anyone from the bottom 6 not named Helm and Abby for him.

What is stopping Kenny from doing this again???

Columbus might not like what Detroit offers or will want too much.

Tada.

[redwingfan19 293]

Columbus might not like what Detroit offers or will want too much.

Tada.

Seriously, I doubt Columbus would be asking to much for Boll, one of Eaves, Emmerton, Miller, take your pick. If not then move on.

[WorkingOvertime 536]

Columbus is a mess right now and will be in fire sale mode. Boll would be a great addition and I would trade anyone from the bottom 6 not named Helm and Abby for him.

What is stopping Kenny from doing this again???

Boll is perfect for the Wings. Last night he was involved in two fights and the others player received an instigator both times. Boll can give the Wings power plays and fights.

[kipwinger 8,492]

Literally the worst stat the NHL keeps track of lol.

Last year Chad Larose 5'9 and not tough was ahead of Brad Stuart and near the top of the league in hits, same with Darrol Powe.

Kronwall doesnt consistently throw little tiny hits ( what Miller and Eaves do) but he'll unload with a huge one that can change a game or a series. The hit stat is good for comparing guys on the same team but the actual numbers are terrible.

I know, its rare to see a coach come right out and say it like that. That coupled with Howards comments would really have me lose a bit of faith in Holland if he didnt address it a little bit anyways.

I've already shown you video evidence of the types of hits Eaves throws (obviously not every hit is big, but nobody can boast that), however it's inaccurate to say that he never throws big hits. Secondly, isn't throwing a whole bunch of little hits, but doing it all the time, sort of a cornerstone of the "grinding" concept we're all so fond of?

[cnot19 191]

Would be willing to trade any or two of eaves, miller, emmerton for boll clifford or martin. Their size would make more a difference come playoff time.

[cnot19 191]

I've already shown you video evidence of the types of hits Eaves throws (obviously not every hit is big, but nobody can boast that), however it's inaccurate to say that he never throws big hits. Secondly, isn't throwing a whole bunch of little hits, but doing it all the time, sort of a cornerstone of the "grinding" concept we're all so fond of?

I dont particularly disagree with you about Eaves throwing hits though, but I find many of hits have little if any effect. IMO he doesnt have the size or attidtude to throw hits that would wear a team down like a Konopka, Clowe, Martin, or even an attitude like clutterbuck. These guys hit to wear the other team down and hit to cause pain.

[kipwinger 8,492]

I dont particularly disagree with you about Eaves throwing hits though, but I find many of hits have little if any effect. IMO he doesnt have the size or attidtude to throw hits that would wear a team down like a Konopka, Clowe, Martin, or even an attitude like clutterbuck. These guys hit to wear the other team down and hit to cause pain.

I agree, but you're talking about some of the biggest and hardest hitters in the league...I'm not comparing Eaves to Clutterbuck and Clowe, I'm comparing him to Malty, who was an effective fourth line grinder without being the biggest or baddest dude in the league. My whole argument was that our bottom six is no less physical than it was in our hey day. Yes, Clowe and Clutterbuck are big, tough dudes...and yes, San Jose and Minnesota are both more physical teams than Detroit, but it doesn't seem to have brought them any more success than we've had...in fact, less so. This whole debate began with the assertion that Detroit is too soft to be successful in the playoffs, and that when they've had success in the playoffs it was because we were tougher, or grittier, or something...which I think is a baseless argument made by people who just happen to prefer a more physical game, regardless of its efficiency.

[PROBIE4PREZ 58]

Dallas Drake and part timer D-Mac were the enforcers on our 2008 squad? Who was in 2009 then? I know we lost, but I'm trying to figure out who the 'tough guy' was that season. Brad May?

Edited January 11, 2012 by PROBIE4PREZ

[esteef 2,679]

I love how Tim Thomas gets ALL the credit for the Bruins winning the Cup in these threads. Probably because that's a hell of a lot easier than acknowledging the fact that Boston was chock full of fighting players that could beat up our entire team and they won the Cup. People around here talk like if we had just ONE of those guys we'd be lucky to make the playoffs. Especially with our s***ty roster full of guys like Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom...

I bet if Boston lost it would've been blamed on "not enough skill" in the lineup.

esteef

edited fer dum spellin

Edited January 12, 2012 by esteef

[Joe S 11]

I didnt see or hear what Cherry said, but the Wings need to play with more grit. When the Wings have the puck near the boards, they get smashed. When the other team has the puck near the boards, the Wings merely try to poke the puck with the stick. Before you all jump in with "what about Kronwall's hit on so and so" let me state that the Wings are capable of playing with more grit, they just dont do it consistently.I prefer the finess that the Wings bring to the game, but a talented physical team will beat an equally talented finess team four games out of seven. Just my opinion, fwiw. Joe S

[GMRwings1983 8,793]

Holland should have responded that he didn't hear what Cherry said, because he had his two Stanley Cup rings plugged into his ears.

[Buppy 1,720]

I love how Tim Thomas gets ALL the credit for the Bruins winning the Cup in these threads. Probably because that's a hell of a lot easier than acknowleging the fact that Boston was chock full of fighting players that could beat up our entire team and they won the Cup. People around here talk like if we had just ONE of those guys we'd be lucky to make the playoffs. Especially with our s***ty roster full of guys like Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom...

I bet if Boston lost it would've been blamed on "not enough skill" in the lineup.

esteef

Yeah, almost like he's considered some sort of Highly Important Participant. As if he was awarded some HIP trophy, or something to that effect...

No one makes valid arguments in these threads. Histrionics and fallacies are what the internet is made of.

No one really believes that having a fighter who can still play a regular shift would hurt the team. For that matter, I doubt anyone honestly believes that a Downey-esque goon would really hurt. But when these threads come up suggesting we "need" someone like that, "not really, but whatever" doesn't seem like a very strong argument. It sounds much more sensational to point out how bad a team full of goons would be, even if no one was suggesting it.

And it goes both ways. No one is actually saying a tough team can't win, or that adding someone like Moen would be bad. Nor is anyone suggesting that we should have a team completely devoid of any physical element. But admitting that fighters/grinder (better than what we already have) aren't that important and/or that we are already a contender without one isn't a particularly convincing argument for going out and getting one. So you have to blow it way out of proportion into some vital need.

Personally, I've already said that the Wings getting more physical could help. I think the top 6 would benefit more, but I wouldn't have any problem adding someone in the bottom 6 either. Kids like Emmy, Mursak, and Gus will get their shot; here or elsewhere. We don't need them now. Miller, Eaves, and Conner I don't particularly care about. The other 10 I think we need (unless we add another top 6 forward). So one spot (or two if they can also play the PK) to add some "toughness". It could help. Wouldn't hurt at least. I don't think a 4th-liner is going to make any big difference, and I don't think it's needed, but whatever.

Now let's see if any from the pro-fighter camp have the balls to be rational and admit that a soft team like us could win a Cup anyway, or even that the '08 team was pretty soft.

And yes, had Boston lost it likely would have been because they didn't have enough skill. Are you suggesting that it would have been because they were too soft?

[redwingfan19 293]

^^^^^

I think the team we have now could win a cup, but I don't think they can afford to go down 2-0 in a series again. This team is not currently built to grind out multiple 7 games series. If Jimmy remains solid and they can pounce on teams early and often, they could win it.

[Red Wings Addict 787]

Dallas Drake and part timer D-Mac were the enforcers on our 2008 squad? Who was in 2009 then? I know we lost, but I'm trying to figure out who the 'tough guy' was that season. Brad May?

Downey was up and down from GR to DET.

[newfy 695]

No one really believes that having a fighter who can still play a regular shift would hurt the team. For that matter, I doubt anyone honestly believes that a Downey-esque goon would really hurt. But when these threads come up suggesting we "need" someone like that, "not really, but whatever" doesn't seem like a very strong argument. It sounds much more sensational to point out how bad a team full of goons would be, even if no one was suggesting it.

And it goes both ways. No one is actually saying a tough team can't win, or that adding someone like Moen would be bad. Nor is anyone suggesting that we should have a team completely devoid of any physical element. But admitting that fighters/grinder (better than what we already have) aren't that important and/or that we are already a contender without one isn't a particularly convincing argument for going out and getting one. So you have to blow it way out of proportion into some vital need.

Personally, I've already said that the Wings getting more physical could help. I think the top 6 would benefit more, but I wouldn't have any problem adding someone in the bottom 6 either. Kids like Emmy, Mursak, and Gus will get their shot; here or elsewhere. We don't need them now. Miller, Eaves, and Conner I don't particularly care about. The other 10 I think we need (unless we add another top 6 forward). So one spot (or two if they can also play the PK) to add some "toughness". It could help. Wouldn't hurt at least. I don't think a 4th-liner is going to make any big difference, and I don't think it's needed, but whatever.

Now let's see if any from the pro-fighter camp have the balls to be rational and admit that a soft team like us could win a Cup anyway, or even that the '08 team was pretty soft.

Ill give it a try since youre trying to act like anyone who likes tough hockey cant use rational.

First of all, there are a few (not a tonne) that think that adding a fighter would really hinder the team. I'm here nor there, not really a fan of bringing in a Colton Orr 3 minute a night player personally, I wont speak for the ones that are. There are also a large amount that are ridiculously attached to the current team for whatever reason and think that a team that has went out second round 2 years in a row now doesnt need any changes. In the playoffs both years Miller and Eaves never ramped it up, they simply arent warriors out there like we've had in the past.

There are also a lot of people who may not think that it would really hurt to add a Tim Jackman/Matt Martin/Prust/Clarkson or whoever but they also say it would have no real impact and thats where I think they are wrong. Some people simply dont see it as a real part of the game with a real impact, I would say anyone who has played at an even somewhat high level would disagree (Babcock for example). Whereas guys like me, argue with people who say Drew Miller has as much impact on a game as these guys, which I simply think isnt true, a lot of people will read a stat sheet and see 5 or 6 more points and say that hes the best option out there.

Detroit has never been the toughest team when they were winning, but they were always the most balanced which this team lacks right now. Back in the late 90s, they never had the most fights but always had the personnel that when the going got tough, they could handle that area of the game pretty easily, even if they werent fighting they were playing a much more physical brand of hockey. Despite what Kipwinger will say, back then Maltby was a pretty physical guy and a premiere pest in the league, Mccarty was always tough, Kocur could handle anyone and the top 6 had Shanny. That team could handle brawls like they had with the Avs and still score goals. They could step up for their team and take on those situations and coming out ahead afterwards.

Even in 2008, a third line of Drake Draper Cleary is pretty physical (Drake was a machine in the playoffs) and rookie Helm with no responsibility except to run around full tilt and smash guys. Having balance is what matters, the wings can score goals now but can they wear down a defense? I sure dont think so, do they have a guy willing to spark the team with a big hit or fight consistently every night because he has a mean streak? Nope. All Detroits cup teams had a couple guys like that, this team is lacking. Those cup winning teams would never let their goalie do the fighting for themselves, unless it was against Roy. This team now had Howard donig it every other night it seemed. When a goalie is putting together a Vezina like season, there is no way he should be getting hit, its called team chemistry. If your goalie jumps a guy, you drop your mitts grab the guy and pound him, even if you were the one that pushed him into the goalie and know the goalie was in the wrong? WHy? Because hes your goalie and you stick up for him

This team doesnt do that, guys like Miller skate around show a glimpse of skill every now and then, same with Eaves but do nothing that great. They "PK", meanwhile our PK isnt that great. I'm sick of seeing a dead team have noone that can spark it when the skill isnt working, I'm sick of seeing Howard fight his own battles and I'm sick of having Commodore being the only one who will go to the aid of a teammate.

Hopefully something like Moen for Miller at the deadline can happen and at least itll be a step in the right direction

[Buppy 1,720]

Ill give it a try since youre trying to act like anyone who likes tough hockey cant use rational.

First of all, there are a few (not a tonne) that think that adding a fighter would really hinder the team. I'm here nor there, not really a fan of bringing in a Colton Orr 3 minute a night player personally, I wont speak for the ones that are. There are also a large amount that are ridiculously attached to the current team for whatever reason and think that a team that has went out second round 2 years in a row now doesnt need any changes. In the playoffs both years Miller and Eaves never ramped it up, they simply arent warriors out there like we've had in the past.

There are also a lot of people who may not think that it would really hurt to add a Tim Jackman/Matt Martin/Prust/Clarkson or whoever but they also say it would have no real impact and thats where I think they are wrong. Some people simply dont see it as a real part of the game with a real impact, I would say anyone who has played at an even somewhat high level would disagree (Babcock for example). Whereas guys like me, argue with people who say Drew Miller has as much impact on a game as these guys, which I simply think isnt true, a lot of people will read a stat sheet and see 5 or 6 more points and say that hes the best option out there.

Detroit has never been the toughest team when they were winning, but they were always the most balanced which this team lacks right now. Back in the late 90s, they never had the most fights but always had the personnel that when the going got tough, they could handle that area of the game pretty easily, even if they werent fighting they were playing a much more physical brand of hockey. Despite what Kipwinger will say, back then Maltby was a pretty physical guy and a premiere pest in the league, Mccarty was always tough, Kocur could handle anyone and the top 6 had Shanny. That team could handle brawls like they had with the Avs and still score goals. They could step up for their team and take on those situations and coming out ahead afterwards.

Even in 2008, a third line of Drake Draper Cleary is pretty physical (Drake was a machine in the playoffs) and rookie Helm with no responsibility except to run around full tilt and smash guys. Having balance is what matters, the wings can score goals now but can they wear down a defense? I sure dont think so, do they have a guy willing to spark the team with a big hit or fight consistently every night because he has a mean streak? Nope. All Detroits cup teams had a couple guys like that, this team is lacking. Those cup winning teams would never let their goalie do the fighting for themselves, unless it was against Roy. This team now had Howard donig it every other night it seemed. When a goalie is putting together a Vezina like season, there is no way he should be getting hit, its called team chemistry. If your goalie jumps a guy, you drop your mitts grab the guy and pound him, even if you were the one that pushed him into the goalie and know the goalie was in the wrong? WHy? Because hes your goalie and you stick up for him

This team doesnt do that, guys like Miller skate around show a glimpse of skill every now and then, same with Eaves but do nothing that great. They "PK", meanwhile our PK isnt that great. I'm sick of seeing a dead team have noone that can spark it when the skill isnt working, I'm sick of seeing Howard fight his own battles and I'm sick of having Commodore being the only one who will go to the aid of a teammate.

Hopefully something like Moen for Miller at the deadline can happen and at least itll be a step in the right direction

I notice you didn't actually admit we were soft in 08, nor that we can win now. You got the histrionics covered though.

"Large amount ridiculously attached to the current team"? Name them. I'll bet most just don't see any need to change, but wouldn't object. Most have particular players they like, and others they would like to move. Some might think it would cost too much to trade for someone, and so don't think it would be worth it. Some may not like the same players as you. I'll bet you can't find many at all that would actually be unwilling to change our current roster. "Dead team"? Commodore the "only one who will go to the aid of a teammate"?

Appeal to authority. Several appeals to emotion. Hasty generalization. You got the fallacies covered pretty well too.

Miller and Eaves haven't stepped it up, so they aren't "warriors"? They may not be the grind line of '02, but they're as effective as Draper/Maltby were in 08. Remember, didn't doesn't mean couldn't. Some of us have confidence that Miller and Eaves are capable of filling the same role.

You give a pretty colorful (but exaggerated) description of what we lack, but no evidence that it's actually needed. Just "we've lost two years in a row and we don't want to lose again do we". So when we lost 3 years in a row (twice in the 2nd round to the same team) with our supposedly tough teams, what did we do? We swapped the likes of Lapointe and Verbeek for Hull and Robitaille. Were we too tough? That wouldn't make sense since we also won back to back cups with a similar roster. You think maybe teams can lose in the playoffs for reasons other than toughness? Like when an almost identical 03 team got swept in the 1st round.

Helm had 28 hits in 18 games in 08. Last year he had 28 hits in 11. He scored more last year too.

When Jimmy got hit by Hansen, Lidstrom, Zetterberg, and Hudler all got involved in the ensuing scrum. When Ozzie got bumped by Sykora in 08, it was Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Franzen. No one really fought either time, though Pittsburgh escalated things a little further than Vancouver did.

I'd like to see some stats on how often Howard gets run or bumped, compared to goalies on our past teams and around the league. I haven't noticed anything unusual. The comments from Howard are not actual evidence that he takes more contact than he should or otherwise would.

It may be fun to reminisce about the glory days of the Grind Line or Shanny or the Brawl, but "remebering fondly" is not sufficient evidence to establish a causal relationship between toughness and winning Cups.

I was going to go on, but this is pointless. I'm tired and my rambling is probably already incoherent.

[up2here 41]

I dont discredit toughness being a factor in winning Cups but to say that the reason the Red Wings havent won the Cup in the past few years because they dont have a guy in the line-up who plays less than 5 minutes per night is just simply ridiculous.

Don is a great Canadian but his time has come and gone.

[Hockey Convert 55]

I notice you didn't actually admit we were soft in 08, nor that we can win now. You got the histrionics covered though...

It may be fun to reminisce about the glory days of the Grind Line or Shanny or the Brawl, but "remebering fondly" is not sufficient evidence to establish a causal relationship between toughness and winning Cups.

I can't speak for Newfy, but it seemed to me that he was suggesting the team in '08 was not as soft as the current team, a sentiment I agree with. The '08 team was probably not the toughest in the league, but as Newfy points out, they had some balance and some bottom-six guys who played much more physically than any players on the team now as a unit. I would not call that team "soft" in relation to the current team, that's the point.

Also, I don't think this team can "win now". Yes, anything is possible; I could win the lottery tomorrow. That doesn't mean I think it will happen. With this roster, I think the probability of the Wings winning a cup is very small. It breaks my heart to say, and every time I watch a game where they just get out-competed, but I don't think the current roster is good enough. Skilled enough, maybe, but you need more than that. The fact that you disagree with that assessment does not make it a "fact" that posters like Newfy are ignoring; it's your opinion that this team can win now.

If they win the cup with the current roster, I will admit my assessment was wrong. Until then, please stop treating it as a given that anyone is "ignoring".

Finally, no one is trying to turn "remembering fondly" into a causal relationship. Some posters are using a correlation to go with their opinion that more toughness is needed; some are also discussing studies that seem to provide some (again, correlational) evidence in support of having toughness or fighting. But please, don't extrapolate from other posters' arguments and use contrived conclusions to support your own argument. A strong opinion that you happen to disagree with is not "histrionics".

[Guest Hatethedrake!]

Dallas Drake and part timer D-Mac were the enforcers on our 2008 squad? Who was in 2009 then? I know we lost, but I'm trying to figure out who the 'tough guy' was that season. Brad May?

The PAIN TRAIN Andreas Lilja. Lilja took on Chuck Norris and no one won. The world just ended.

[GMRwings1983 8,793]

The PAIN TRAIN Andreas Lilja. Lilja took on Chuck Norris and no one won. The world just ended.

Well, he did ragdoll Jared Boll that year.