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#181 Buppy

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 03:51 AM

Ill give it a try since youre trying to act like anyone who likes tough hockey cant use rational.

First of all, there are a few (not a tonne) that think that adding a fighter would really hinder the team. I'm here nor there, not really a fan of bringing in a Colton Orr 3 minute a night player personally, I wont speak for the ones that are. There are also a large amount that are ridiculously attached to the current team for whatever reason and think that a team that has went out second round 2 years in a row now doesnt need any changes. In the playoffs both years Miller and Eaves never ramped it up, they simply arent warriors out there like we've had in the past.

There are also a lot of people who may not think that it would really hurt to add a Tim Jackman/Matt Martin/Prust/Clarkson or whoever but they also say it would have no real impact and thats where I think they are wrong. Some people simply dont see it as a real part of the game with a real impact, I would say anyone who has played at an even somewhat high level would disagree (Babcock for example). Whereas guys like me, argue with people who say Drew Miller has as much impact on a game as these guys, which I simply think isnt true, a lot of people will read a stat sheet and see 5 or 6 more points and say that hes the best option out there.

Detroit has never been the toughest team when they were winning, but they were always the most balanced which this team lacks right now. Back in the late 90s, they never had the most fights but always had the personnel that when the going got tough, they could handle that area of the game pretty easily, even if they werent fighting they were playing a much more physical brand of hockey. Despite what Kipwinger will say, back then Maltby was a pretty physical guy and a premiere pest in the league, Mccarty was always tough, Kocur could handle anyone and the top 6 had Shanny. That team could handle brawls like they had with the Avs and still score goals. They could step up for their team and take on those situations and coming out ahead afterwards.

Even in 2008, a third line of Drake Draper Cleary is pretty physical (Drake was a machine in the playoffs) and rookie Helm with no responsibility except to run around full tilt and smash guys. Having balance is what matters, the wings can score goals now but can they wear down a defense? I sure dont think so, do they have a guy willing to spark the team with a big hit or fight consistently every night because he has a mean streak? Nope. All Detroits cup teams had a couple guys like that, this team is lacking. Those cup winning teams would never let their goalie do the fighting for themselves, unless it was against Roy. This team now had Howard donig it every other night it seemed. When a goalie is putting together a Vezina like season, there is no way he should be getting hit, its called team chemistry. If your goalie jumps a guy, you drop your mitts grab the guy and pound him, even if you were the one that pushed him into the goalie and know the goalie was in the wrong? WHy? Because hes your goalie and you stick up for him

This team doesnt do that, guys like Miller skate around show a glimpse of skill every now and then, same with Eaves but do nothing that great. They "PK", meanwhile our PK isnt that great. I'm sick of seeing a dead team have noone that can spark it when the skill isnt working, I'm sick of seeing Howard fight his own battles and I'm sick of having Commodore being the only one who will go to the aid of a teammate.

Hopefully something like Moen for Miller at the deadline can happen and at least itll be a step in the right direction

I notice you didn't actually admit we were soft in 08, nor that we can win now. You got the histrionics covered though.

"Large amount ridiculously attached to the current team"? Name them. I'll bet most just don't see any need to change, but wouldn't object. Most have particular players they like, and others they would like to move. Some might think it would cost too much to trade for someone, and so don't think it would be worth it. Some may not like the same players as you. I'll bet you can't find many at all that would actually be unwilling to change our current roster. "Dead team"? Commodore the "only one who will go to the aid of a teammate"?

Appeal to authority. Several appeals to emotion. Hasty generalization. You got the fallacies covered pretty well too.

Miller and Eaves haven't stepped it up, so they aren't "warriors"? They may not be the grind line of '02, but they're as effective as Draper/Maltby were in 08. Remember, didn't doesn't mean couldn't. Some of us have confidence that Miller and Eaves are capable of filling the same role.

You give a pretty colorful (but exaggerated) description of what we lack, but no evidence that it's actually needed. Just "we've lost two years in a row and we don't want to lose again do we". So when we lost 3 years in a row (twice in the 2nd round to the same team) with our supposedly tough teams, what did we do? We swapped the likes of Lapointe and Verbeek for Hull and Robitaille. Were we too tough? That wouldn't make sense since we also won back to back cups with a similar roster. You think maybe teams can lose in the playoffs for reasons other than toughness? Like when an almost identical 03 team got swept in the 1st round.

Helm had 28 hits in 18 games in 08. Last year he had 28 hits in 11. He scored more last year too.

When Jimmy got hit by Hansen, Lidstrom, Zetterberg, and Hudler all got involved in the ensuing scrum. When Ozzie got bumped by Sykora in 08, it was Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Franzen. No one really fought either time, though Pittsburgh escalated things a little further than Vancouver did.

I'd like to see some stats on how often Howard gets run or bumped, compared to goalies on our past teams and around the league. I haven't noticed anything unusual. The comments from Howard are not actual evidence that he takes more contact than he should or otherwise would.

It may be fun to reminisce about the glory days of the Grind Line or Shanny or the Brawl, but "remebering fondly" is not sufficient evidence to establish a causal relationship between toughness and winning Cups.

I was going to go on, but this is pointless. I'm tired and my rambling is probably already incoherent.

#182 up2here

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 07:43 AM

I dont discredit toughness being a factor in winning Cups but to say that the reason the Red Wings havent won the Cup in the past few years because they dont have a guy in the line-up who plays less than 5 minutes per night is just simply ridiculous.

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#183 Hockey Convert

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 08:05 AM

I notice you didn't actually admit we were soft in 08, nor that we can win now. You got the histrionics covered though...

It may be fun to reminisce about the glory days of the Grind Line or Shanny or the Brawl, but "remebering fondly" is not sufficient evidence to establish a causal relationship between toughness and winning Cups.


I can't speak for Newfy, but it seemed to me that he was suggesting the team in '08 was not as soft as the current team, a sentiment I agree with. The '08 team was probably not the toughest in the league, but as Newfy points out, they had some balance and some bottom-six guys who played much more physically than any players on the team now as a unit. I would not call that team "soft" in relation to the current team, that's the point.

Also, I don't think this team can "win now". Yes, anything is possible; I could win the lottery tomorrow. That doesn't mean I think it will happen. With this roster, I think the probability of the Wings winning a cup is very small. It breaks my heart to say, and every time I watch a game where they just get out-competed, but I don't think the current roster is good enough. Skilled enough, maybe, but you need more than that. The fact that you disagree with that assessment does not make it a "fact" that posters like Newfy are ignoring; it's your opinion that this team can win now.

If they win the cup with the current roster, I will admit my assessment was wrong. Until then, please stop treating it as a given that anyone is "ignoring".

Finally, no one is trying to turn "remembering fondly" into a causal relationship. Some posters are using a correlation to go with their opinion that more toughness is needed; some are also discussing studies that seem to provide some (again, correlational) evidence in support of having toughness or fighting. But please, don't extrapolate from other posters' arguments and use contrived conclusions to support your own argument. A strong opinion that you happen to disagree with is not "histrionics".

#184 F.Michael

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 09:36 AM

Ill give it a try since youre trying to act like anyone who likes tough hockey cant use rational.

First of all, there are a few (not a tonne) that think that adding a fighter would really hinder the team. I'm here nor there, not really a fan of bringing in a Colton Orr 3 minute a night player personally, I wont speak for the ones that are. There are also a large amount that are ridiculously attached to the current team for whatever reason and think that a team that has went out second round 2 years in a row now doesnt need any changes. In the playoffs both years Miller and Eaves never ramped it up, they simply arent warriors out there like we've had in the past.

There are also a lot of people who may not think that it would really hurt to add a Tim Jackman/Matt Martin/Prust/Clarkson or whoever but they also say it would have no real impact and thats where I think they are wrong. Some people simply dont see it as a real part of the game with a real impact, I would say anyone who has played at an even somewhat high level would disagree (Babcock for example). Whereas guys like me, argue with people who say Drew Miller has as much impact on a game as these guys, which I simply think isnt true, a lot of people will read a stat sheet and see 5 or 6 more points and say that hes the best option out there.

Detroit has never been the toughest team when they were winning, but they were always the most balanced which this team lacks right now. Back in the late 90s, they never had the most fights but always had the personnel that when the going got tough, they could handle that area of the game pretty easily, even if they werent fighting they were playing a much more physical brand of hockey. Despite what Kipwinger will say, back then Maltby was a pretty physical guy and a premiere pest in the league, Mccarty was always tough, Kocur could handle anyone and the top 6 had Shanny. That team could handle brawls like they had with the Avs and still score goals. They could step up for their team and take on those situations and coming out ahead afterwards.

Even in 2008, a third line of Drake Draper Cleary is pretty physical (Drake was a machine in the playoffs) and rookie Helm with no responsibility except to run around full tilt and smash guys. Having balance is what matters, the wings can score goals now but can they wear down a defense? I sure dont think so, do they have a guy willing to spark the team with a big hit or fight consistently every night because he has a mean streak? Nope. All Detroits cup teams had a couple guys like that, this team is lacking. Those cup winning teams would never let their goalie do the fighting for themselves, unless it was against Roy. This team now had Howard donig it every other night it seemed. When a goalie is putting together a Vezina like season, there is no way he should be getting hit, its called team chemistry. If your goalie jumps a guy, you drop your mitts grab the guy and pound him, even if you were the one that pushed him into the goalie and know the goalie was in the wrong? WHy? Because hes your goalie and you stick up for him

This team doesnt do that, guys like Miller skate around show a glimpse of skill every now and then, same with Eaves but do nothing that great. They "PK", meanwhile our PK isnt that great. I'm sick of seeing a dead team have noone that can spark it when the skill isnt working, I'm sick of seeing Howard fight his own battles and I'm sick of having Commodore being the only one who will go to the aid of a teammate.

Hopefully something like Moen for Miller at the deadline can happen and at least itll be a step in the right direction

Well said :thumbup:

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#185 Hatethedrake!

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 10:15 AM

Dallas Drake and part timer D-Mac were the enforcers on our 2008 squad? Who was in 2009 then? I know we lost, but I'm trying to figure out who the 'tough guy' was that season. Brad May?


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We need someone like Parise that can penetrate the box.-blueadams

#186 GMRwings1983

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 11:44 AM

The PAIN TRAIN Andreas Lilja. Lilja took on Chuck Norris and no one won. The world just ended.


Well, he did ragdoll Jared Boll that year.
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#187 Hatethedrake!

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 11:51 AM

Well, he did ragdoll Jared Boll that year.


Lilja tried out for the movie 300 but was turned away because it was not realistic. The army had 300 Spartans and Lilja take on armies all by himself.

Edited by Hatethedrake!, 12 January 2012 - 11:52 AM.

Jordan Tootoo will wreck shop.

We need someone like Parise that can penetrate the box.-blueadams

#188 Bring Back The Bruise Bros

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 11:58 AM

The PAIN TRAIN Andreas Lilja. Lilja took on John Erskine and no one won. The world just ended.

Fixed.
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#189 newfy

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 12:17 PM

I notice you didn't actually admit we were soft in 08, nor that we can win now. You got the histrionics covered though.

"Large amount ridiculously attached to the current team"? Name them. I'll bet most just don't see any need to change, but wouldn't object. Most have particular players they like, and others they would like to move. Some might think it would cost too much to trade for someone, and so don't think it would be worth it. Some may not like the same players as you. I'll bet you can't find many at all that would actually be unwilling to change our current roster. "Dead team"? Commodore the "only one who will go to the aid of a teammate"?

Miller and Eaves haven't stepped it up, so they aren't "warriors"? They may not be the grind line of '02, but they're as effective as Draper/Maltby were in 08. Remember, didn't doesn't mean couldn't. Some of us have confidence that Miller and Eaves are capable of filling the same role.

You give a pretty colorful (but exaggerated) description of what we lack, but no evidence that it's actually needed. Just "we've lost two years in a row and we don't want to lose again do we". So when we lost 3 years in a row (twice in the 2nd round to the same team) with our supposedly tough teams, what did we do? We swapped the likes of Lapointe and Verbeek for Hull and Robitaille. Were we too tough? That wouldn't make sense since we also won back to back cups with a similar roster. You think maybe teams can lose in the playoffs for reasons other than toughness? Like when an almost identical 03 team got swept in the 1st round.

Helm had 28 hits in 18 games in 08. Last year he had 28 hits in 11. He scored more last year too.

When Jimmy got hit by Hansen, Lidstrom, Zetterberg, and Hudler all got involved in the ensuing scrum. When Ozzie got bumped by Sykora in 08, it was Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Franzen. No one really fought either time, though Pittsburgh escalated things a little further than Vancouver did.

I'd like to see some stats on how often Howard gets run or bumped, compared to goalies on our past teams and around the league. I haven't noticed anything unusual. The comments from Howard are not actual evidence that he takes more contact than he should or otherwise would.

It may be fun to reminisce about the glory days of the Grind Line or Shanny or the Brawl, but "remebering fondly" is not sufficient evidence to establish a causal relationship between toughness and winning Cups.

This team was definitely the toughest its been post lockout in 2008, not the toughest in the league but had the personnel to handle rough stuff when push came to shove pretty easily. This team is definitely softer than that team was, I dont know how you could think any different..

And what? You disagree that Commodore is the only one who will willingly defend a teammate? Abdelkader and Ericcson are capable but mostly unwilling to stick up for guys, Commodore (probably to hold down a job)will be the first one into scrums and ready to defend a teammate, since hes a 6th dman he doesnt get played much however.

As for Howard getting bumped, do you watch the games? There was a point where he got hit like 3 games in a row and it led him to basically call the team out in the media. If you dont want to take that as evidence as him getting hit a lot then thats fine, but if a goalie is hit enough to complain to the press than I'm pretty sure hes getting bumped more than he is comfortable with. Even if he isnt getting bumped MORE than other goalies in the league, if he is getting bumped more than he is comfortable with the team should listen to him and go after someone for doing it. Just to show the team has their vezina level goalies back.

As for my argument having no evidence, you seem to think they can win with this current lineup with no evidence at all. At least I can say the wings have never won a cup without a lineup tougher then the current lineup now. It may not be causation but I'm willing to bet that it helps quite a bit for a team to have that balance.

Eaves may be as effective as Draper was in 08, but with the way he was playing earlier and the way he and Miller both played the last playoffs, they are definitely no Draper or Maltby in my eyes. They also didnt provide his veteran presence or faceoff ability, even if tthey were as good as he was in the regular season.

As for that last bit, it might be a bit of remembering fondly, but I'm sitting here trying to remember a team with a bottom 6 as soft as the wings (not to mention top 6 really) winning the cup. And now that I think about it, there has NEVER been a team that has won the cup with a bottom 6 this soft. Now there is a first for everything and sure MAYBE this team could pull it off, but to say I'm the one lacking evidence is pretty pathetic considering its never been proven a team built like the wings can win a cup. If you want to think so, go ahead. Ill happily be proven wrong but I just dont see it

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#190 GMRwings1983

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 03:43 PM

Heard that MacIntyre was waived. He's the best fighter in hockey today.

Figure if we get an enforcer, we may as well get the best.
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#191 Bring Back The Bruise Bros

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 06:16 PM

Heard that MacIntyre was waived. He's the best fighter in hockey today.

Figure if we get an enforcer, we may as well get the best.

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#192 LeftWinger

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 06:23 PM

LGW servers explode.

Ya, too bad he won't even get a sniff from Holland.

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#193 Finnish Wing

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 07:29 PM

Ya, too bad he won't even get a sniff from Holland.

Maybe he can go and start a boxing career then.
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#194 GMRwings1983

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 07:34 PM

Maybe he can go and start a boxing career then.


Why can't he start that career at the JLA?
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#195 Buppy

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 02:50 AM

I can't speak for Newfy, but it seemed to me that he was suggesting the team in '08 was not as soft as the current team, a sentiment I agree with. The '08 team was probably not the toughest in the league, but as Newfy points out, they had some balance and some bottom-six guys who played much more physically than any players on the team now as a unit. I would not call that team "soft" in relation to the current team, that's the point.

...If they win the cup with the current roster, I will admit my assessment was wrong. Until then, please stop treating it as a given that anyone is "ignoring".
...

I wasn't saying he was ignoring any established fact, I was making an observation.

It's my opinion that people in these debates tend to argue from emotion rather than reason. When someone starts one of these threads calling the team soft and saying we need to make this or that roster move, I believe the majority of contrary responses are more a rebuttal against the "insult" than an actual disagreement with any proposed change, or even the basic premise that being tougher might help us. I believe for the same basic reason that few people will be willing to call the 08 team soft. Finally, I believe much of the demand for a tougher team comes more from frustration when we lose and the insecurity of some people who don't like being associated with "weakness" than it does an actual belief in the need for toughness.

Forgive me for waxing psycho-analytical. The debate itself is pointless. No one is ever going to change their stance, regardless of what evidence is presented. If the Wings win the Cup with the current roster, you may change your opnion regarding how soft the current team is, but you won't admit that soft teams can win.

This team was definitely the toughest its been post lockout in 2008, not the toughest in the league but had the personnel to handle rough stuff when push came to shove pretty easily. This team is definitely softer than that team was, I dont know how you could think any different..

And what? You disagree that Commodore is the only one who will willingly defend a teammate? Abdelkader and Ericcson are capable but mostly unwilling to stick up for guys, Commodore (probably to hold down a job)will be the first one into scrums and ready to defend a teammate, since hes a 6th dman he doesnt get played much however.

As for Howard getting bumped, do you watch the games? There was a point where he got hit like 3 games in a row and it led him to basically call the team out in the media. If you dont want to take that as evidence as him getting hit a lot then thats fine, but if a goalie is hit enough to complain to the press than I'm pretty sure hes getting bumped more than he is comfortable with. Even if he isnt getting bumped MORE than other goalies in the league, if he is getting bumped more than he is comfortable with the team should listen to him and go after someone for doing it. Just to show the team has their vezina level goalies back.

As for my argument having no evidence, you seem to think they can win with this current lineup with no evidence at all. At least I can say the wings have never won a cup without a lineup tougher then the current lineup now. It may not be causation but I'm willing to bet that it helps quite a bit for a team to have that balance.

Eaves may be as effective as Draper was in 08, but with the way he was playing earlier and the way he and Miller both played the last playoffs, they are definitely no Draper or Maltby in my eyes. They also didnt provide his veteran presence or faceoff ability, even if tthey were as good as he was in the regular season.

As for that last bit, it might be a bit of remembering fondly, but I'm sitting here trying to remember a team with a bottom 6 as soft as the wings (not to mention top 6 really) winning the cup. And now that I think about it, there has NEVER been a team that has won the cup with a bottom 6 this soft. Now there is a first for everything and sure MAYBE this team could pull it off, but to say I'm the one lacking evidence is pretty pathetic considering its never been proven a team built like the wings can win a cup. If you want to think so, go ahead. Ill happily be proven wrong but I just dont see it

So where's the threshhold between soft and tough (or at least 'not soft')? It seems like it's somewhere just below the 08 team. And it still seems an ill-defined concept. The definition seems to be a moving target and now includes veteran presense and faceoff ability. To me it looks like it just means anything in which you can point out something different between the Cup team and this one. Seems a lot more about what a team wins than how a team plays.

I may not have evidence that this team can win a Cup; it's a future event, there can't be actual evidence either way, especially without an actual definition of "soft" that can be quantified.

What I do have is the following stats from the last 13 Cup winners:

Team	        MP	PIM	Hits	Blk	Avg				
Detroit	        25	21	2	23	17.8
Dallas	        21	21	12	8	15.5
New Jersey	9	8	8	19	11
Colorado	14	22	8	17	15.3
Detroit	        30	24	26	23	25.8
New Jersey	19	29	23	13	21
Tampa Bay	24	28	28	17	24.3
Carolina	28	26	25	1	20
Anaheim	        1	1	10	30	10.5
Detroit	        30	29	25	30	28.5
Pittsburgh	23	17	6	4	12.5
Chicago	        21	25	25	17	22
Boston		3       8       21      15      11.8
Averages	19.1	20	16.9	16.7	18.1			

Top20%	        2	1	2	2	0			
Bottom20%	4	6	5	3       2 (Both Wings)
Top Half	4	3	6	5       4				
Bottom Half	9	10	7	8       9				
That's the rank where each team finished the regular season in major penalties, PIMs, hits, and blocked shots, and the average ranks for each. At the bottom is the number of Cups won by teams in the top or bottom 20% of the league, and top and bottom half.

Of course there are "toughness" factors that aren't precisely measured by stats, but considering the high rankings for the Ducks and Bruins and the late 90's teams, it seems to coincide to what is generally regarded as tough. (While this data suggests an inverse corollary, it's likely to be skewed by lesser skilled teams being more physical to compensate.)

This does show that teams that aren't very physical can and have won Cups before. Incidentally, the Wings are currently last in majors, 29th in PIM, 24th in hits, and 22nd in blocks. Actually slightly "tougher", by this metric, than the 08 team, and about the same as the 02 team. We hit more and block shots better than than the 08 team.

So I don't really see how, aside from fighting, we're any softer than the 08 team. But that just puts us back at the ill-defined stage. Since the numbers don't support you, you'll just say it's something you can't measure.

Honestly, the way you talk about being tough sounds more like what most people mean when they talk about character or "heart". If you want to questions this team's heart, I think that's fair. I don't agree, but I think it's a reasonable concern. But if you want to talk actual physicality, the measurable numbers are against you.

Edited by Buppy, 13 January 2012 - 02:55 AM.


#196 Finnish Wing

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 10:16 AM

Why can't he start that career at the JLA?

Good point. I just hope there would be some NHL-ready enforcer from Finland. Because you know how biased I am.

Jonne Virtanen is still young and already the most feared fighter in FEL. He can play the game as well. Maybe we could sign him.

Edited by Finnish Wing, 13 January 2012 - 10:17 AM.

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#197 GMRwings1983

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 12:41 PM

Good point. I just hope there would be some NHL-ready enforcer from Finland. Because you know how biased I am.

Jonne Virtanen is still young and already the most feared fighter in FEL. He can play the game as well. Maybe we could sign him.


Just checked him out.

Looks like the only guy he fights is Sami Helenius. :hehe: I guess there isn't much of a market for fighters in the FEL.
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#198 Finnish Wing

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 02:07 PM

Just checked him out.

Looks like the only guy he fights is Sami Helenius. :hehe: I guess there isn't much of a market for fighters in the FEL.

And that's because of the rules. You'll always get a game misconduct when you fight.

Sami is already retired and in politics now I think. Patrik Lostedt, Ilari Melart and Virtanen are pretty much the only fighters. Melart is still young and has become a more complete hockey player, he could still get an NHL contract some day.

Edited by Finnish Wing, 13 January 2012 - 02:08 PM.

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#199 SouthernWingsFan

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Posted 13 January 2012 - 09:38 PM

The problem with these threads that go all over the place is that the concept can be defined in so many different ways.

Are the Wings tough in the sense of bare knuckles or throwing fists on a consistent basis? No, always in the bottom rung of the league in fighting majors for better/worse. I always like a good scrap but I get up for that no more/less than a penalty shot goal like last night for instance, a great glove save, or other aspects of the sport.

Are the Wings tough in the sense of work ethic? I'd say more yes than no. In the course of an 80+ game season, you are going to be tired some games, you might not be able to bring it all. I'm not saying to not get upset at it and what not, but sometimes you will get outworked. This team hasn't significantly changed too much in terms of personnel the past few years, but I think they can and do outwork the opposition more often than not. I think they have the potential to make a deep run in the playoffs with this roster, much like the last two seasons. If you disagree with me, cool, I get that 2nd round exits don't fly but especially last year after rallying from 3 games down and nearly finishing it off, the team was that close to a deep run, a good bit of that to hard work ethic. If you think things need a good bit a change because of that, I completely understand. I don't think much needs to be changed in terms of the roster, and I hope I am correct. So, after that long winded blurbed, yes I think the Wings are tough in the sense of good work ethic, they just need to bring it more, and we've seen them do so in the past.

Are the Wings tough in standing up for others (i.e. Howard snow showers) or after scrums or whatever? They could be better, but I'm not losing sleep over that. I don't like getting into the whole manly or you are a wuss bit because you don't always take somebody's head off after questionable hits/scrums. They are big boys, they know in the grand scheme of things how to stand up for themselves.

And let me be clear that I am not against any type of player, I just want to see the team win. If that is more with guys that drop the mits more, great. If it is this roster made with some grit and a bit more skill, which I do think they are capable of being successful, great.

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 10:33 AM

I really don't know what Babcock truly believes in regards to enforcers. He's said one thing and then another and so, I suppose, here's the latest:

Babcock: Fighter not a priority

Babcock, who in the past has liked having someone who can "keep the flies off," such as Aaron Downey, Darren McCarty and Brad May, isnít advocating acquiring a one-dimensional player before the Feb. 27 trading deadline.

"Not someone that fights, because to me, thatís a waste of time," Babcock said. "But if we could get another heavy winger or heavy forward or a (defenseman), those would be all good things to help you."

Fighters have become obsolete in the playoffs.

"What are you going to do, fight at stoppages in the playoffs?" Babcock said. "You got to be able to play. Now, if youíre capable of playing and (fighting), then thatís great. But (an enforcer) wouldnít be a priority."

http://www.mlive.com..._than_capa.html







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