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Cherry rips Holland


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#241 kipwinger

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 05:01 PM

It's not so much changing the line-up as it is making an addition, or two...Guys like Moen/Gaustad are respectable 3rd/4th line guys who can play a decent defensive game in our own end of the ice while adding a physical presence to our forward lines.

I agree with jroc86 concerning the last few minutes of any game in which the Red Wings may have a significant lead; some teams like the Sharks/Ducks may go ahead, and "send a message" by attempting to rough up some of our guys...Personally I'd rather have someone like Moen/Gaustad out there so in case if something happens.


Again, you want to change the roster in order to fix a problem that "may" happen in the "last few minutes". I don't see what Moen or Gaustad are going to do in the last couple of minutes that Bert or Abby can't. The reason we don't have tough guys on in those cases is not because we don't have them, it's because Babs doesn't put them on the ice at the end of the game. I don't see that philosophy changing just because we bring in a guy like Gaustad or Moen. Don't get me wrong, they're good players, but they don't give us anything we don't already have, and they don't protect us against anything other than the chance that somebody, somewhere, sometime, might take a run out of frustration. And like I said, when was the last time one of our stars missed a game because of that?

Note: Also, fighting rarely happens in the playoffs, either for or against. So presumably, if we're advocating bringing someone over to protect our guys, then we're talking about protecting them during the duration of the regular season. As we haven't lost any key players to dirty hits or muggings so far this season, and in a month or two nobody will be fighting anymore anyway, what's the point? What are we going to do, lose a pick or prospect for Moen or Guastad in order to keep Hank, Pav, or Lidstrom safe and healthy for a next month?

Edited by kipwinger, 22 February 2012 - 05:06 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#242 Grim

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 05:06 PM

What's a "Detroy-it"?


Its not like its a french word or anything :blink:

#243 Carman

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 05:10 PM

Fighting doesn't help protect anyone, if anything it makes the game more dangerous and emotional, players are going to take dirty hits depending on the situation the person being checked is in, not because there is someone on the bench that will try and challenge them to a fight they don't have to accept . Fighting's only use is for entertainment and a way to get momentum back in the game, that's it. And the second one works against your team 50% of the time. I'd personally prefer a team that just wins games rather than .

#244 Grim

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 05:11 PM

Cherry is harmless. I love his rhetoric but lately he's gone too dinosaur with his bruiser talk. He needs to find a new topic otherwise he;ll end up like the original HNIC theme song.

#245 F.Michael

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 06:09 PM

Again, you want to change the roster in order to fix a problem that "may" happen in the "last few minutes". I don't see what Moen or Gaustad are going to do in the last couple of minutes that Bert or Abby can't. The reason we don't have tough guys on in those cases is not because we don't have them, it's because Babs doesn't put them on the ice at the end of the game. I don't see that philosophy changing just because we bring in a guy like Gaustad or Moen. Don't get me wrong, they're good players, but they don't give us anything we don't already have, and they don't protect us against anything other than the chance that somebody, somewhere, sometime, might take a run out of frustration. And like I said, when was the last time one of our stars missed a game because of that?

Note: Also, fighting rarely happens in the playoffs, either for or against. So presumably, if we're advocating bringing someone over to protect our guys, then we're talking about protecting them during the duration of the regular season. As we haven't lost any key players to dirty hits or muggings so far this season, and in a month or two nobody will be fighting anymore anyway, what's the point? What are we going to do, lose a pick or prospect for Moen or Guastad in order to keep Hank, Pav, or Lidstrom safe and healthy for a next month?

Changing the roster :blink:

Well for what it's worth Holland has been rumored looking into both of these guys (meaning trying to acquire 1, but not necessarily both); I'm sure there's a reason for that...Add to the fact that both of these guys can play, have good size, and don't mind the rough stuff from time to time only adds to their value for what could potentially be a long playoff run which btw if ya haven't noticed - we've lost to the Sharks these past few years - ya know - that team that has some good size guys on their roster, and aren't afraid to use that size to their advantage.

It's not so much about "protecting our stars" as it is adding an element to the roster that IMHO has been lacking these past few years...If they can be out there to keep the puck in the oppositions end of the ice by mucking and grinding in the corners, help kill off a penalty, help protect a lead in the last minutes of the game, or be out there if the other team wants to send a message - then great cause that's what we can use guys like Moen/Gaustad for.

Fighting doesn't help protect anyone, if anything it makes the game more dangerous and emotional, players are going to take dirty hits depending on the situation the person being checked is in, not because there is someone on the bench that will try and challenge them to a fight they don't have to accept . Fighting's only use is for entertainment and a way to get momentum back in the game, that's it. And the second one works against your team 50% of the time. I'd personally prefer a team that just wins games rather than .

Hmm - I always thought fighting was a way to "vent" so to speak...Would you rather see a 2-handed stick swinging competition?

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#246 SouthernWingsFan

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 08:37 PM

The rare times I might see Don Cherry on TV, I just view him for entertainment purpose and to see what spiffy suit he has on next.

While what he might typically say about toughness or brass knuckles is accurate, generally speaking, he goes so overboard with it that I don't take him seriously and it's not worth getting panties in a bunch over his same schtick.

#247 kipwinger

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 11:54 PM

Changing the roster :blink:

Well for what it's worth Holland has been rumored looking into both of these guys (meaning trying to acquire 1, but not necessarily both); I'm sure there's a reason for that...Add to the fact that both of these guys can play, have good size, and don't mind the rough stuff from time to time only adds to their value for what could potentially be a long playoff run which btw if ya haven't noticed - we've lost to the Sharks these past few years - ya know - that team that has some good size guys on their roster, and aren't afraid to use that size to their advantage.

It's not so much about "protecting our stars" as it is adding an element to the roster that IMHO has been lacking these past few years...If they can be out there to keep the puck in the oppositions end of the ice by mucking and grinding in the corners, help kill off a penalty, help protect a lead in the last minutes of the game, or be out there if the other team wants to send a message - then great cause that's what we can use guys like Moen/Gaustad for.


Hmm - I always thought fighting was a way to "vent" so to speak...Would you rather see a 2-handed stick swinging competition?


1. Don't see a lot of two handed stick swinging competitions either, whether in the regular season or the playoffs. 2. I hope you're not insinuating that you want Gaustad or Moen to fight against the big guys from San Jose in the playoffs. 3. I don't mind the idea of acquiring a forward because they're good in the defensive zone, or because they use their size and strength to cycle the puck, or finish their checks, or any number of other things. I wasn't arguing against acquiring good and helpful players. I was suggesting that some people attempt to justify roster changes based on something that never happens. If you want to get Gaustad or Moen because they're potentially helpful...fine. If you want to get them because they'll "stop Thornton from mugging our stars", then you're blind or lying...because our stars aren't getting mugged. That's all.

Edited by kipwinger, 23 February 2012 - 11:56 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#248 newfy

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 02:06 AM

1. Don't see a lot of two handed stick swinging competitions either, whether in the regular season or the playoffs. 2. I hope you're not insinuating that you want Gaustad or Moen to fight against the big guys from San Jose in the playoffs. 3. I don't mind the idea of acquiring a forward because they're good in the defensive zone, or because they use their size and strength to cycle the puck, or finish their checks, or any number of other things. I wasn't arguing against acquiring good and helpful players. I was suggesting that some people attempt to justify roster changes based on something that never happens. If you want to get Gaustad or Moen because they're potentially helpful...fine. If you want to get them because they'll "stop Thornton from mugging our stars", then you're blind or lying...because our stars aren't getting mugged. That's all.

No, those guys are helpful and will help protect the stars. Late in a game where you used to see the Ducks goon guys at the buzzer in playoffs, Gaustad or Moen can be trusted out there. Noone has ever said get these guys cause they can fight. Fighting is definitely part of it but its because theyre useless in other areas as well that this team is really lacking.

If people wanted someone to just fight they wouldnt be suggesting these guys, they would be suggesting Colton Orr

RIP BOB PROBERT #24


#249 kipwinger

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 12:45 PM

No, those guys are helpful and will help protect the stars. Late in a game where you used to see the Ducks goon guys at the buzzer in playoffs, Gaustad or Moen can be trusted out there. Noone has ever said get these guys cause they can fight. Fighting is definitely part of it but its because theyre useless in other areas as well that this team is really lacking.

If people wanted someone to just fight they wouldnt be suggesting these guys, they would be suggesting Colton Orr


Dude I agree with everything you said, but if you look back over the posts you'll see my whole line of comments came as a response to someone who thought we should get these guys to stop Joe Thornton, and guys like him, from "mugging" Pavel, Hank, and Lidstrom. I just said that this particular justification is stupid. Not that Moen or Gaustad where bad players. And after watching Franzen blow his coverage last night on the game tying goal in the waning seconds of the third, I'd be thrilled to see almost any player on the ice in the last minute rather than him and big Bert. No knock on Bert, but maybe someone with a little defensive acumen when you're trying to protect a lead. Nevermind, that's beside the point.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#250 F.Michael

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 01:43 PM

No, those guys are helpful and will help protect the stars. Late in a game where you used to see the Ducks goon guys at the buzzer in playoffs, Gaustad or Moen can be trusted out there. Noone has ever said get these guys cause they can fight. Fighting is definitely part of it but its because theyre useless in other areas as well that this team is really lacking.

If people wanted someone to just fight they wouldnt be suggesting these guys, they would be suggesting Colton Orr

This right here.

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#251 F.Michael

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 01:50 PM

Dude I agree with everything you said, but if you look back over the posts you'll see my whole line of comments came as a response to someone who thought we should get these guys to stop Joe Thornton, and guys like him, from "mugging" Pavel, Hank, and Lidstrom. I just said that this particular justification is stupid. Not that Moen or Gaustad where bad players. And after watching Franzen blow his coverage last night on the game tying goal in the waning seconds of the third, I'd be thrilled to see almost any player on the ice in the last minute rather than him and big Bert. No knock on Bert, but maybe someone with a little defensive acumen when you're trying to protect a lead. Nevermind, that's beside the point.

I'm not suggesting (nor have I suggested) getting a guy for a role as team goon with the idea of protecting our stars - I've been suggesting that a team could use a few guys like Moen/Gaustad because they can play, AND drop the mitts when needed, BUT are much more capable of a 4 to 6 min one-dimensional player like Colton Orr...It looks to me you're taking things outta context, and/or trying to create a new argument over something I never suggested.

As newfy pointed out - be it the playoffs, or regular season some opponents will want to send the message if they're getting blown out...Who would you rather have out on the ice to take a faceoff, and line up with 2 minutes, or less on the clock - a combo of Moen/Gaustad/Abby/Miller, or Franzen/Dats/Hudler/Hank/Filppula/etc/etc?

Edited by F.Michael, 24 February 2012 - 01:52 PM.


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#252 kipwinger

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 01:53 PM

I'm not suggesting (nor have I suggested) getting a guy for a role as team goon with the idea of protecting our stars - I've been suggesting that a team could use a few guys like Moen/Gaustad because they can play, AND drop the mitts when needed, BUT are much more capable of a 4 to 6 min one-dimensional player like Colton Orr...It looks to me you're taking things outta context, and/or trying to create a new argument over something I never suggested.

As newfy pointed out - be it the playoffs, or regular season some opponents will want to send the message if they're getting blown out...Who would you rather have out on the ice to take a faceoff, and line up with 2 minutes, or less on the clock - a combo of Moen/Gaustad/Abby/Miller, or Franzen/Dats/Hudler/Hank/Filppula/etc/etc?


Depends on the score. Last night we had Bert, Z, and Franzen out with under a minute and we didn't have to worry about some tough guy sending a message, we had to worry about getting scored on and losing the game. And IMO neither Moen or Gaustad would have helped much in a situation like that, except maybe Gaustad would have won the damn faceoff.

Edited by kipwinger, 24 February 2012 - 01:56 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#253 F.Michael

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 01:55 PM

Depends on the score.

4-0...Wings dominating.

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#254 kipwinger

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 01:58 PM

4-0...Wings dominating.


Sorry I changed that last post on you. Anyway, we've been in that situation a lot over the years and I don't recall anyone sending any messages which were ever something to be worried about, at least not anymore than a team losing 4-0 is bound to do at any other point in the game.

Edited by kipwinger, 24 February 2012 - 01:58 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#255 kipwinger

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 02:03 PM

As a matter of fact, the only injury we've sustained in the last 5 or 6 years that could be attributed to a "message sending" incident was Stuart's broken jaw. And I hardly think Brad Stuart is the kind of guy who needs a big brother on the ice protecting him. "Message sending" rarely happens in today's game, and when it does, no tough guy in the world is going to prevent it. I didn't see the presence of Paul Gaustad preventing Lucic from running over Miller this season, and after the poor showing Gaustad had in his fight with Lucic the next game, I hardly think Lucic has been deterred from sending another message again when he feels like it.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#256 F.Michael

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 02:11 PM

As a matter of fact, the only injury we've sustained in the last 5 or 6 years that could be attributed to a "message sending" incident was Stuart's broken jaw. And I hardly think Brad Stuart is the kind of guy who needs a big brother on the ice protecting him. "Message sending" rarely happens in today's game, and when it does, no tough guy in the world is going to prevent it. I didn't see the presence of Paul Gaustad preventing Lucic from running over Miller this season, and after the poor showing Gaustad had in his fight with Lucic the next game, I hardly think Lucic has been deterred from sending another message again when he feels like it.

If memory serves me right Rafalski got his nose broken when Perry jumped him in a playoff game...Either way I'm not talking about a deterrant as much as I'm talking about in the last few minutes of a game (again be it regular season, or playoffs) where the Wings have a commanding lead, and our opponent wants to get nasty...I'd rather keep our skill guys/non-fighters on the bench to avoid getting injured.

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#257 kipwinger

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 02:15 PM

If memory serves me right Rafalski got his nose broken when Perry jumped him in a playoff game...Either way I'm not talking about a deterrant as much as I'm talking about in the last few minutes of a game (again be it regular season, or playoffs) where the Wings have a commanding lead, and our opponent wants to get nasty...I'd rather keep our skill guys/non-fighters on the bench to avoid getting injured.


I understand that, but I think we've got the guys to do that anyway. I see no reason why our defensively responsible and much tougher third line can't perform that task. Abby, Helm, and Miller were having one of their better games of the season last night and they were kept off the ice in the final minute and look what happened. Gaustad and Moen are good players, and I won't be upset if either of them come here, but not because I think we need someone to handle the rough stuff, we're fine in that department.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#258 F.Michael

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 02:22 PM

I understand that, but I think we've got the guys to do that anyway. I see no reason why our defensively responsible and much tougher third line can't perform that task. Abby, Helm, and Miller were having one of their better games of the season last night and they were kept off the ice in the final minute and look what happened. Gaustad and Moen are good players, and I won't be upset if either of them come here, but not because I think we need someone to handle the rough stuff, we're fine in that department.

Yes - we have a fine 3rd line - however for the upcoming playoffs I'd love to see a rental such as Gaustad, or Moen in the line up to replace inexperienced guys such as Mursak, or Emmerton...That's just my humble opinion.

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#259 kipwinger

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Posted 24 February 2012 - 02:23 PM

No doubt Moen and Gaustad are better than Mursak and Emmerton. It would be impossible to disagree with that.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 






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