258 replies to this topic

[wingfan13]

Soooo, that isnt an example. Lidstrom was run and injured by someone even though Aaron Downey was dressed.

I guess I should further go into my opinion on the whole matter. It pisses me off more than anything when a player on the other team is taking runs at our players. Doane, Backes or whoever. I DO think and depseratley want someone on the team that will stand up to these guys but I DONT want a guy who plays 2 shifts every 10 or so games. I think Holland and company have this same opinion. They want someone who can contribute and stand up to the guys taking runs at us. That is just a hard player to find.

My issue with Cherry's comment was simply using Aaron Downey as an example. If he would have said McCarty, Shanahan or Kocur I would have agreed. Those guys played every game and could contribute. I think we still would have won the cup without Downey, I don't think we win without the other guys I mentioned.

I do get irritated that we dont have that mean SOB on the team who does more policing out there. I wish we had a Pronger type but a lot less douchey.

That doesn't mean there has to be a correlation.

Exactly...name all of the teams in the league that have no enforcer at all. There can't be many of them. So there is a high probability that the team that wins the Stanley Cup has one.

You just don't get it, do you? Please tell me you're not our next GM.

But to give you one example: If my memory serves me well, I remember a game against the Ducks, where they were beating us up both physically and on the scoreboard. Downey went out and challenged Parros, won the fight, and Detroit seemed to respond. I still think they lost, but they came back and made a game out of it. They looked dead before the fight.

There is nothing I dont get. See my post above but again your example shows no evidence that what Downey did change the game. Also, the best example for you to use to prove some sort of point is the March 26th game when all hell broke loose. I believe that whole mele without a doubt brought the team together. I think that game was huge.

Edited by wingfan13, 08 January 2012 - 04:00 PM.

[Dominator2005]

This!!!!

That hurts someone'S (wingfan13) feeling...

[Detroit # 1 Fan]

Soooo, that isnt an example. Lidstrom was run and injured by someone even though Aaron Downey was dressed.

I guess I should further go into my opinion on the whole matter. It pisses me off more than anything when a player on the other team is taking runs at our players. Doane, Backes or whoever. I DO think and depseratley want someone on the team that will stand up to these guys but I DONT want a guy who plays 2 shifts every 10 or so games. I think Holland and company have this same opinion. They want someone who can contribute and stand up to the guys taking runs at us. That is just a hard player to find.

My issue with Cherry's comment was simply using Aaron Downey as an example. If he would have said McCarty, Shanahan or Kocur I would have agreed. Those guys played every game and could contribute. I think we still would have won the cup without Downey, I don't think we win without the other guys I mentioned.

To the first point, yes he was. But instead of phoning it in and doing nothing like todays team would, Downey went after Lappy and sparked the team to a victory. That is team toughness, a guy sparking the team to keep playing hard and WIN for the guy who was injured through a dirty (ish) hit. Especially when it's our captain.

To your second point, fair enough. I feel the same way, I'd rather have the Lucic type then the Downey type especially for the Wings. If we could have both, well happy days, but I think we both know that won't happen for quite a while.

Thirdly, I think Downey had an impact on the mentality of the 2008 team, but definitely it's a stretch to say he was the reason we won. And definitely McCarty, Shanny and Kocur had more impact during those runs. But Don isn't totally out to lunch (and I'm not saying your saying that because clearly I think we're on the same page here) I think we do need some type of physical presence up front if we wanna make a run again this year.

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros]

I DO think and depseratley want someone on the team that will stand up to these guys but I DONT want a guy who plays 2 shifts every 10 or so games. I think Holland and company have this same opinion. They want someone who can contribute and stand up to the guys taking runs at us. That is just a hard player to find.

Not really....


Zack Smith-21 points in 42 games
Ryan Jones-20 points in 41 games
David Clarkson-19 points in 41 games
Travis Moen-15 points in 39 games
Eric Nystrom-14 points in 35 games
Tanner Glass-12 points in 41 games
Chris Neil-12 points in 33 games
Dan Carcillo-11 points in 28 games
Gregory Campbell-10 points in 35 games
Brandon Prust-9 points in 39 games
Derek Dorsett-9 points in 38 games
Jamal Mayers-9 points in 41 games
Tim Jackman-7 points in 43 games

I like B.J. Crombeen, Matt Beleskey, Jordin Tootoo, and Mike Rupp, as well. All can skate a regular shift and won't be a liability to the team.

Many of these guys will be available this summer.

Edited by Bring Back The Bruise Bros, 08 January 2012 - 04:34 PM.

[newfy]

What has Cherry won exactly?

Jack Adams, which is far and away more than any of us can boast from our keyboards...

Not to mention playing professional hockey and would have made it much further if not for blowing out his shoulder

Not really....


Zack Smith-21 points in 42 games
Ryan Jones-20 points in 41 games
David Clarkson-19 points in 41 games
Travis Moen-15 points in 39 games
Eric Nystrom-14 points in 35 games
Tanner Glass-12 points in 41 games
Chris Neil-12 points in 33 games
Dan Carcillo-11 points in 28 games
Gregory Campbell-10 points in 35 games
Brandon Prust-9 points in 39 games
Derek Dorsett-9 points in 38 games
Tim Jackman-7 points in 43 games

I like B.J. Crombeen, Matt Beleskey, and Mike Rupp, as well. All can skate a regular shift and won't be a liability to the team.

Many of these guys will be available this summer.

This. I hate when people say its hard to find a player that can scrap a bit and stick up for his team while playing the game. Its hard to find a guy that can beat up Steve Mcyntire and score 30 goals to boot yes, but thats different then a guy like Prust, Smith, CLarkson (who is solid in the Holmstrom role) who will fight most guys in the league when they have to while contributing the same amount to the team as an Emmerton, Miller or Eaves really

[vangvace]

Realistically, I believe that if Detroit were to have a 30+ point fighter on the roster there would be pitchforks and torches to get him to stop fighting and live up to their "true" potential.

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros]

Jack Adams, which is far and away more than any of us can boast from our keyboards...

Not to mention playing professional hockey and would have made it much further if not for blowing out his shoulder


This. I hate when people say its hard to find a player that can scrap a bit and stick up for his team while playing the game. Its hard to find a guy that can beat up Steve Mcyntire and score 30 goals to boot yes, but thats different then a guy like Prust, Smith, CLarkson (who is solid in the Holmstrom role) who will fight most guys in the league when they have to while contributing the same amount to the team as an Emmerton, Miller or Eaves really

Get used to seeing lists like that from me, as we get closer to the offseason and people keep claiming nobody is available who fits the bill. I think Cherry is right when it comes to Detroit.

[Buppy]

People are so funny. Toughness is relative, and the Wings have been one of the softest teams in the league for all of our recent Cups. The way some people talk about the Cup years now, you'd think we led the league in majors, as opposed to being last or close like we really were. I'm sure if we win the Cup this year, in a few years we'll see folks reminiscing about the toughness of Bert, E, and Abby.

So we haven't won a Cup without an enforcer. How many times have we (or any other team) actually had a season without one?

How about this. In 98, we beat Washington in the Finals. Washington was last in the league in majors, we were next to last. In 02, we beat Carolina. We were last, Carolina was next to last. In 08 we were last, Pittsburgh was 10th. (I don't have the stats for 97, but I'm pretty sure we were near the bottom.)

There is no correlation at all between toughness or fighting and playoff success. Some tough teams win, some soft teams win.

[uk_redwing]

It's too bad that this is what enforcer debates have been reduced to: ripping the posters who oppose your viewpoints instead of actually entering reasonable discourse. On both sides.

Don't want to get involved with this debate, but f*** me you're one to talk! All you ever seem to do these days is belittle other members who have different opinions to you.

I agree with Cherry, but he's is a rambling idiot and no-one will ever listen to him because he's usually wrong.

[LeftWinger]

Not really....


Zack Smith-21 points in 42 games
Ryan Jones-20 points in 41 games
David Clarkson-19 points in 41 games
Travis Moen-15 points in 39 games
Eric Nystrom-14 points in 35 games
Tanner Glass-12 points in 41 games
Chris Neil-12 points in 33 games
Dan Carcillo-11 points in 28 games
Gregory Campbell-10 points in 35 games
Brandon Prust-9 points in 39 games
Derek Dorsett-9 points in 38 games
Jamal Mayers-9 points in 41 games
Tim Jackman-7 points in 43 games

I like B.J. Crombeen, Matt Beleskey, Jordin Tootoo, and Mike Rupp, as well. All can skate a regular shift and won't be a liability to the team.

Many of these guys will be available this summer.

None of which Holland will even call...

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros]

People are so funny. Toughness is relative, and the Wings have been one of the softest teams in the league for all of our recent Cups. The way some people talk about the Cup years now, you'd think we led the league in majors, as opposed to being last or close like we really were. I'm sure if we win the Cup this year, in a few years we'll see folks reminiscing about the toughness of Bert, E, and Abby.

So we haven't won a Cup without an enforcer. How many times have we (or any other team) actually had a season without one?

How about this. In 98, we beat Washington in the Finals. Washington was last in the league in majors, we were next to last. In 02, we beat Carolina. We were last, Carolina was next to last. In 08 we were last, Pittsburgh was 10th. (I don't have the stats for 97, but I'm pretty sure we were near the bottom.)

There is no correlation at all between toughness or fighting and playoff success. Some tough teams win, some soft teams win.

Sigh....I'll bite.


There isn't anybody saying fights=championships. In 2002, we had guys like McCarty, Maltby, and Draper who were all physical and defensively responsible, while chipping in offensively. Shanahan was gritty and offensively skilled as well. All were physical, as in getting in on the forecheck and wearing down the defense. Finishing all of their checks. These guys won puck battles down low. They all drove the net. At the same time, Yzerman, Fedorov, and the finesse guys played on a consistent basis. There was a healthy balance of finesse and grit.

In 2008, Drake, Maltby, and even Helm and McCarty were the ones winning puck battles down low. Driving to the net. Getting in on the forecheck and wearing down the defense. Blocking shots. These kind of grinders are needed, IMO to get through gruesome playoff series. Again, our finesse guys played consistent. Again, there was a healthy combination of finesse and grit.

I'm not giving credit to Dallas Drake for our championship in 2008, but guys like him help us physically compete with other teams in long playoff series.

Many will say "Oh well we were one game away from the Conference championship series with a really soft team". I didn't realize that was good enough around here. There is room for improvement on this team.

[dat's sick]

People are so funny. Toughness is relative, and the Wings have been one of the softest teams in the league for all of our recent Cups. The way some people talk about the Cup years now, you'd think we led the league in majors, as opposed to being last or close like we really were. I'm sure if we win the Cup this year, in a few years we'll see folks reminiscing about the toughness of Bert, E, and Abby.

So we haven't won a Cup without an enforcer. How many times have we (or any other team) actually had a season without one?

How about this. In 98, we beat Washington in the Finals. Washington was last in the league in majors, we were next to last. In 02, we beat Carolina. We were last, Carolina was next to last. In 08 we were last, Pittsburgh was 10th. (I don't have the stats for 97, but I'm pretty sure we were near the bottom.)

There is no correlation at all between toughness or fighting and playoff success. Some tough teams win, some soft teams win.

Maybe the best post in the thread. Not a hard thing to accomplish, but still.

Another funny thing is how people have used the Wings bad luck with injuries the last few years as proof we need an enforcer. Well, what about this year? Why are we so healthy without an enforcer? Everyone should be taking runs constantly at this soft and defenseless team.

[GMRwings1983]

Guys, we have a player on our team who paralyzed a guy once.

What do want Holland to do, sign a polar bear?

[uk_redwing]

Maybe the best post in the thread. Not a hard thing to accomplish, but still.

Another funny thing is how people have used the Wings bad luck with injuries the last few years as proof we need an enforcer. Well, what about this year? Why are we so healthy without an enforcer? Everyone should be taking runs constantly at this soft and defenseless team.

Apart from "we are so healthy" being a stupid thing to say half way through the season, stopping players taking runs at players is only one plus of having some bangers/fighters. What about creating energy when a team is down? Wearing the other team down on the grind? Allowing players to play and feel protected? Not to mention providing fantastic entertainment and creating tasty rivalries?

Eh? Also the post you quoted as the best post wasn't very good either. Trying to call the 96-97 Avs-Wings brawling team soft is af****** joke if you ask me. They only had McCarty, Pushor, Lapointe, Shanahan and JOEY KOCUR.

What a bunch of cup winning softies.

[Detroit # 1 Fan]

Guys, we have a player on our team who paralyzed a guy once.

What do want Holland to do, sign a polar bear?

For some reason when I saw sign a polar bear I thought of Lilja. God if only he could still menace the ice like he used to pre-concussion

[Kingston]

Don Cherry is overrated.

[WorkingOvertime]

Not really....


Zack Smith-21 points in 42 games
Ryan Jones-20 points in 41 games
David Clarkson-19 points in 41 games
Travis Moen-15 points in 39 games
Eric Nystrom-14 points in 35 games
Tanner Glass-12 points in 41 games
Chris Neil-12 points in 33 games
Dan Carcillo-11 points in 28 games
Gregory Campbell-10 points in 35 games
Brandon Prust-9 points in 39 games
Derek Dorsett-9 points in 38 games
Jamal Mayers-9 points in 41 games
Tim Jackman-7 points in 43 games

I like B.J. Crombeen, Matt Beleskey, Jordin Tootoo, and Mike Rupp, as well. All can skate a regular shift and won't be a liability to the team.

Many of these guys will be available this summer.

Great list. These are the types of players the Wings need. Having a player with the same offense as the current fourth liners that can also fight would be an upgrade. In addition to the reasons mentioned already, these players can have an effect on the toughness of the entire team. Knowing someone will stand up for their teammates can make everyone play with more toughness.

[dat's sick]

Apart from "we are so healthy" being a stupid thing to say half way through the season, stopping players taking runs at players is only one plus of having some bangers/fighters. What about creating energy when a team is down? Wearing the other team down on the grind? Allowing players to play and feel protected? Not to mention providing fantastic entertainment and creating tasty rivalries?

Eh? Also the post you quoted as the best post wasn't very good either. Trying to call the 96-97 Avs-Wings brawling team soft is af****** joke if you ask me. They only had McCarty, Pushor, Lapointe, Shanahan and JOEY KOCUR.

What a bunch of cup winning softies.

You make it sound like we are 4 lines and 3 d-pairs of softness and skill nowadays. We've got grinders that provide energy and wear down the other team. I wouldn't be opposed to, say, move Cleary to find a guy that is more physically punishing and still puts up the occasional points, but overall we've got a pretty good mix of 'soft' (as if a guy like Pavel is soft) and 'tough'.

Imo there's too much nostalgia from some people. It's all about the golden years during the 90s. And yes, I'd love it if we could get prime-Shanahan and McCarty back. Today it's a different league though, you don't see things like the Wings-Avs rivalry anymore and more and more teams are moving away from having "enforcers". Everyone talks about Boston and how tough they are and so on, and they have a good team that plays hard, but people should look more at how they play defense and how amazing Tim Thomas is. Those are the keys to their success. Besides, the softest team in the league, Vancouver, almost beat them in the finals and would have beaten them if not for Thomas.

[IllinoisRedWingsFan]

I actually agree with Don Cherry on this one. You always need an enforcer to stick up for your teammates. Our best years was when we had an enforcer e.g. McCarty etc.

[Hiei]

Wings win. That's all that matters. Sounds like insecurities from him. Wings don't need a tough man to win. FACT.

FALSE.


97-98-02 Grind Line. Players that took the body and won in a collision.

2008: THE DRAKE, Mac's Comeback, and Downey. Players that took the body and won in a collision.


Since then:

09-lost in Finals
10-lost to SJ (admittedly we were injured a lot that year)
11-lost to SJ (can't let them run Howard and take liberties with our guys again like games 1, 3, and 7)



We don't need a goon, nor do we need a bunch of fighters...We need:

1. Player who can go out and throw hits in a shift to separate opposing player from puck.
2. Player who can STAND UP FOR THE GOALIE AND NOT LEAVE HOWARD TO FIGHT HIS OWN FIGHT
3. Player who makes opposing teams pay for taking liberties with our players
4. Player who can chip in some points and skate at a decent speed.

And there are lots of guys out there who fit those points. Unfortunately, We don't have any of those guys on our team right now. Abdelkader is the closest, but he looks like he wants to be a top 6 guy and not a 3rd line energy option.