258 replies to this topic

[Buppy]

Sigh....I'll bite.


There isn't anybody saying fights=championships. In 2002, we had guys like McCarty, Maltby, and Draper who were all physical and defensively responsible, while chipping in offensively. Shanahan was gritty and offensively skilled as well. All were physical, as in getting in on the forecheck and wearing down the defense. Finishing all of their checks. These guys won puck battles down low. They all drove the net. At the same time, Yzerman, Fedorov, and the finesse guys played on a consistent basis. There was a healthy balance of finesse and grit.

In 2008, Drake, Maltby, and even Helm and McCarty were the ones winning puck battles down low. Driving to the net. Getting in on the forecheck and wearing down the defense. Blocking shots. These kind of grinders are needed, IMO to get through gruesome playoff series. Again, our finesse guys played consistent. Again, there was a healthy combination of finesse and grit.

I'm not giving credit to Dallas Drake for our championship in 2008, but guys like him help us physically compete with other teams in long playoff series.

Many will say "Oh well we were one game away from the Conference championship series with a really soft team". I didn't realize that was good enough around here. There is room for improvement on this team.

Well, I think this is exactly about some people trying to correlate fighting to winning. Of course, there isn't one, so the enforcer slappies have to duck behind vagueness like "grit". They insinuate that there's some special, intangible "toughness" that can't be measured or specified in any way, but is possesed by all Cup winners, and lacking everywhere else. Anything contradictory is dismissed as "not what I mean by toughness".

In 08 our forward with the most hits in the playoffs was Datsyuk. In the regular season we were 25th in the league in hits. 13th in hits/game in the playoffs. 1st in playoff hits was New Jersey, then Anaheim, who both lost in the 1st round. In 02, we were 26th in the regular season and again 13th in the playoffs. So far this year we are 24th, ahead of Boston, Chicago, and San Jose. Last year we were 19th, ahead of both Boston and Vancouver. Columbus, Dallas, and Carolina were all in the top 5 in hits last year and missed the playoffs.

Abby is a gritty, physical player. Gets in on the forecheck, finishes his checks. Defensively responsible, wins battles down low, drives the net, etc. He is a lot like Drake, except for the near mythical proportions Drake has taken on since the Cup win. Helm and Cleary are still Helm and Cleary. Miller and Eaves also play hard, battle down low and in the corners, play good defense, etc. Emmerton and Conner aren't very physical, but Hudler was also in our bottom 6 in 8. McCarty played mostly in place of Maltby, then in place of Cleary when he moved up to take Mule's place. Not much of a net gain in physicality, especially considering he only played about 6 minutes a night.

In the 08 regular season we had Draper, Drake, Maltby, Kopecky, Sammuelsson, and Downey. This year we have Helm, Abby, Bert, Miller, Eaves, and Emmerton. In 08, those guys combined for 397 games and 538 hits. This year, our 6 have 246 hits in 188 games. Using last years numbers (but this year for Emmerton), it's also 397 games, and 632 hits.

There is no correlation between toughness and winning. We were soft in 08, were soft now. We can still win. Of course, it would be great if we could be just as good while also being tougher. It would be great if we could be just as good, and everyone was also a better goal scorer. Or just as good and 15% faster.

Sure, there are players that are as good as some of our players who can also fight or are more physical. No one is suggesting that we should avoid those players. I for one am not even saying those players are that hard to find. I would even like someone physical for the top 6 (I think our bottom 6 is fine).

What I have a problem with is the veiled (or sometimes open) insinuation that replacing someone like Miller with a similar player who can fight is what will put us over the top. It's silly.

[Barrie]

I'd like to point out that the Wings 2007-08 enforcer, Aaron Downey, played 0 games in the playoffs. Also in 2001-02 McCarty and Shanahan, who Cherry mentioned in his rant, were past their primes when it came to fighting.

We won two cups with fighters like Kocur, Lapointe, and McCarty (in his prime). The other two were with guys past their fighting primes or none. Cherry was half right. Two of our Cups were won with toughness, the other two (because the game is changing) were won with skill.

Enforcers are usually healthy scratches in the playoffs anyway so they aren't out there taking stupid penalties. Plus the pace of the game in the playoffs is faster and they can't keep up. Quicker guys need to be out there.

[Barrie]

Also, I don't get how people saying we're a soft team. We usually have more hits in games then the opposition. Datsyuk, Kronwall, Abby, Helm, Stuart, Bert, Franzen, etc. all throw their weight around. Just because we don't fight, doesn't make us soft.

I tend to lean more towards being more worn out, because we've played so many playoff games, for our last two 2nd round exits. Our guys have played another season or two more games than other teams.

[mjlegend]

Sounds like something the Jack Adams Trophy winner in 1976 would say.

We need toughness, but not at the expense of needless instigator/retaliation penalties because our PK isn't good enough to make up for it.

[kipwinger]

Well, I think this is exactly about some people trying to correlate fighting to winning. Of course, there isn't one, so the enforcer slappies have to duck behind vagueness like "grit". They insinuate that there's some special, intangible "toughness" that can't be measured or specified in any way, but is possesed by all Cup winners, and lacking everywhere else. Anything contradictory is dismissed as "not what I mean by toughness".

In 08 our forward with the most hits in the playoffs was Datsyuk. In the regular season we were 25th in the league in hits. 13th in hits/game in the playoffs. 1st in playoff hits was New Jersey, then Anaheim, who both lost in the 1st round. In 02, we were 26th in the regular season and again 13th in the playoffs. So far this year we are 24th, ahead of Boston, Chicago, and San Jose. Last year we were 19th, ahead of both Boston and Vancouver. Columbus, Dallas, and Carolina were all in the top 5 in hits last year and missed the playoffs.

Abby is a gritty, physical player. Gets in on the forecheck, finishes his checks. Defensively responsible, wins battles down low, drives the net, etc. He is a lot like Drake, except for the near mythical proportions Drake has taken on since the Cup win. Helm and Cleary are still Helm and Cleary. Miller and Eaves also play hard, battle down low and in the corners, play good defense, etc. Emmerton and Conner aren't very physical, but Hudler was also in our bottom 6 in 8. McCarty played mostly in place of Maltby, then in place of Cleary when he moved up to take Mule's place. Not much of a net gain in physicality, especially considering he only played about 6 minutes a night.

In the 08 regular season we had Draper, Drake, Maltby, Kopecky, Sammuelsson, and Downey. This year we have Helm, Abby, Bert, Miller, Eaves, and Emmerton. In 08, those guys combined for 397 games and 538 hits. This year, our 6 have 246 hits in 188 games. Using last years numbers (but this year for Emmerton), it's also 397 games, and 632 hits.

There is no correlation between toughness and winning. We were soft in 08, were soft now. We can still win. Of course, it would be great if we could be just as good while also being tougher. It would be great if we could be just as good, and everyone was also a better goal scorer. Or just as good and 15% faster.

Sure, there are players that are as good as some of our players who can also fight or are more physical. No one is suggesting that we should avoid those players. I for one am not even saying those players are that hard to find. I would even like someone physical for the top 6 (I think our bottom 6 is fine).

What I have a problem with is the veiled (or sometimes open) insinuation that replacing someone like Miller with a similar player who can fight is what will put us over the top. It's silly.

Wow, this is crazy. It looks like you use actual statistics to show that when you're talking hits or "grit", the team we have now is comparable to those that won the cups. So that must mean that if someone wants to chalk those cups up to "physicality" they must be talking about fighting then huh? Good post. Well said. Me, I think I'd rather have a bigger bodied winger who shoots first and works the center of the ice, if he can hit great, if not, oh well. Tuomo Ruutu much?

Edited by kipwinger, 09 January 2012 - 04:42 AM.

[HOCKEY MATTERS]

No one can deliver a hit like the refs. Can anyone deny that they are having much more of an impact on the outcome of games than any enforcer?

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros]

Well, I think this is exactly about some people trying to correlate fighting to winning. Of course, there isn't one, so the enforcer slappies have to duck behind vagueness like "grit". They insinuate that there's some special, intangible "toughness" that can't be measured or specified in any way, but is possesed by all Cup winners, and lacking everywhere else. Anything contradictory is dismissed as "not what I mean by toughness".

In 08 our forward with the most hits in the playoffs was Datsyuk. In the regular season we were 25th in the league in hits. 13th in hits/game in the playoffs. 1st in playoff hits was New Jersey, then Anaheim, who both lost in the 1st round. In 02, we were 26th in the regular season and again 13th in the playoffs. So far this year we are 24th, ahead of Boston, Chicago, and San Jose. Last year we were 19th, ahead of both Boston and Vancouver. Columbus, Dallas, and Carolina were all in the top 5 in hits last year and missed the playoffs.

Abby is a gritty, physical player. Gets in on the forecheck, finishes his checks. Defensively responsible, wins battles down low, drives the net, etc. He is a lot like Drake, except for the near mythical proportions Drake has taken on since the Cup win. Helm and Cleary are still Helm and Cleary. Miller and Eaves also play hard, battle down low and in the corners, play good defense, etc. Emmerton and Conner aren't very physical, but Hudler was also in our bottom 6 in 8. McCarty played mostly in place of Maltby, then in place of Cleary when he moved up to take Mule's place. Not much of a net gain in physicality, especially considering he only played about 6 minutes a night.

In the 08 regular season we had Draper, Drake, Maltby, Kopecky, Sammuelsson, and Downey. This year we have Helm, Abby, Bert, Miller, Eaves, and Emmerton. In 08, those guys combined for 397 games and 538 hits. This year, our 6 have 246 hits in 188 games. Using last years numbers (but this year for Emmerton), it's also 397 games, and 632 hits.

There is no correlation between toughness and winning. We were soft in 08, were soft now. We can still win. Of course, it would be great if we could be just as good while also being tougher. It would be great if we could be just as good, and everyone was also a better goal scorer. Or just as good and 15% faster.

Sure, there are players that are as good as some of our players who can also fight or are more physical. No one is suggesting that we should avoid those players. I for one am not even saying those players are that hard to find. I would even like someone physical for the top 6 (I think our bottom 6 is fine).

What I have a problem with is the veiled (or sometimes open) insinuation that replacing someone like Miller with a similar player who can fight is what will put us over the top. It's silly.

I'm not saying fighting=chamionships. I'm not saying the Cup is ours if we get a guy like Moen. There are so many other factors that play into a teams success than just grit. Although I will say we've got to be able to physically combat our opponent in a long playoff series. We played decent against Anaheim in 2007, but they just seemed to out-muscle us to loose pucks a lot of the time. We need to be able to physically keep up with those kind of teams. Regardless of what the role players do, the snipers need to play consistently. The defense needs to be able to play consistently. The penalty kill needs to be able to get a few kills if it comes down to that. There needs to be balance. You can't have a team full of goons alone and expect to win a Cup. You can't have a bunch of finesse guys that won't go to the trenches to win a puck battle and expect to win a Cup. You can't have a team that fails to effectively kill penalties and expect to win a Cup. You need a team that has a balance of finesse, grit (winning puck battles down low, separate man from puck, block shots, just play physically as a team), defensive prowess, and a solid goaltender. Your role players have to show up occasionally on the score sheet. Take a look at a few role players for Boston last year in the playoffs:

Chris Kelly-13 points in 25 games
Dan Paille-6 points in 25 games
Gregory Campbell-4 points in 25 games

In addition to the skilled guys putting up offensive numbers:

David Krejci-23 points in 25 games
Patrice Bergeron-20 points in 23 games
Brad Marchand-19 points in 25 games
Nathan Horton-17 points in 21 games

These guys have to show up to win a Championship. Hell, Drake put up 4 points in the '08 postseason. Not a lot, but contributions from the role players are key.

I'd love to be proved wrong. I'd be ecstatic if we won the Cup this year with the roster we have right now. I just don't see it happening, based on the last few early playoff exits with virtually the same roster. And again, the Cup isn't automatically ours if we find a Moen, there needs to be a healthy balance of what I listed above to be a Cup contender.

[Hatethedrake!]

Cherry hates the Wings because they have proven him wrong for about 20 years now. The Wings proved a team can win a Cup with Euro players on the roster. Would I like the Wings to have a few more gritty players? Sure I would. But no one can knock the excellent job Holland has done of building this team and maintaining its position in the upper echelon of the NHL for so many years now. This just in. You can't win the Cup every year. It's a very hard trophy to win and it takes many variables to win it. Talent, match-ups, healthy, luck, etc. Cherry likes to rip the Wings when they are down. I recall in 1997 when he ripped the Wings all year on Coaches Corner and then he jumped on the bandwagon in Game 4 of the Cup Final. He always boasts when he is right but never admits to when he is wrong, which is most of the time. Heck he had Bobby Orr on his Bruins' teams when he coached and he still couldn't win a Cup. His jealousy of Holland is very clear and I actually get a kick out of it.

[rrasco]

But no one can knock the excellent job Holland has done of building this team and maintaining its position in the upper echelon of the NHL for so many years now.

I'm pretty sure that happens daily around here.

On that note, maybe we should start an enforcer debate. Oh yeah...

[newfy]

Cherry hates the Wings because they have proven him wrong for about 20 years now. The Wings proved a team can win a Cup with Euro players on the roster. Would I like the Wings to have a few more gritty players? Sure I would. But no one can knock the excellent job Holland has done of building this team and maintaining its position in the upper echelon of the NHL for so many years now. This just in. You can't win the Cup every year. It's a very hard trophy to win and it takes many variables to win it. Talent, match-ups, healthy, luck, etc. Cherry likes to rip the Wings when they are down. I recall in 1997 when he ripped the Wings all year on Coaches Corner and then he jumped on the bandwagon in Game 4 of the Cup Final. He always boasts when he is right but never admits to when he is wrong, which is most of the time. Heck he had Bobby Orr on his Bruins' teams when he coached and he still couldn't win a Cup. His jealousy of Holland is very clear and I actually get a kick out of it.

Actually I think the wings have proven him right to an extent. Whenever the wings have been their toughest and grittiest is when they win cups. 08 was the toughest team post lockout for the wings, what happened to that 2006 team that was probably the softest, but had an amazing regular season?

[redwingfan19]

What it comes down to right now is the Wings need to get tougher to play against. They can skill their way to wins in the regular season but you can't skill your way to win a 7 game series.



However, I think Holland has started to address this through the draft in recent years.

Edited by redwingfan19, 09 January 2012 - 11:55 AM.

[esteef]

If fighters have zero effect on a team's ability to win a Cup, why do they still exist in the league? Why do players like that try to be extra physical and intimidate if (according to people on this board) it has absolutely no effect on good players (like the Wings roster)? Why are these type of players still signed and iced to this day if they are useless towards winning?

Maybe you guys are on to something and the rest of the hockey world is just too dumb to figure it out.

esteef

[Konnan511]

I just want a good pk'r who will contribute around 20 points and doesn't mind throwing down and plays and excellent two way game.

[F.Michael]

If fighters have zero effect on a team's ability to win a Cup, why do they still exist in the league? Why do players like that try to be extra physical and intimidate if (according to people on this board) it has absolutely no effect on good players (like the Wings roster)? Why are these type of players still signed and iced to this day if they are useless towards winning?

Maybe you guys are on to something and the rest of the hockey world is just too dumb to figure it out.

esteef

[Hatethedrake!]

Toughness does play a role in winning a Cup. There is a difference between TEAM TOUGHNESS and Goon Toughness. For years the Blues have had players on its roster whose sole purpose was to beat you up and nothing more. It usually happened when their team was getting their ass kicked on the scoreboard.

Cherry makes a good point in that you do need some toughness on your team to balance all the skill to win a Cup. The Habs of the 60s had John Ferguson. But also Larry Robinson was one of their best players and he could beat up anyone in the league in a fight. The Oilers had Mark Messier and he was not only one of the best players of his generation but also one of the toughest. They also had Dave Semenko who acted as Wayne Gretzky's bodyguard. This of course was all pre-Instigator Rule Hockey where for the most part, the players policed themselves. Guys like Jordan Toootoo could not exist playing in the 80s. He'd get his ass beat and ran out of the league.

The Wings had guys like Probert and Kocur to keep players away from Stevie Y. Probert could actually play the game though. I think he still has the Wings record for playoff points in a series. It didn't hurt he got to play on the same line as #19. Stll, Probie had value. Not just for his pugilistic prowess but for his ability to play the game.

In 2008 we had Dallas Drake who didn't do much in the regular season but was integral in our Cup run. Holland knew his value come playoff time which is why he was signed and it paid off. To me toughness isn't so much fighting, it's sticking up for your teammates. Being hard to play against. Watch the Bruins play. They are the toughest team in the league. When one of its players are cheapshotted, all their players are all over the guy who ran their teammate. I love that about that team. The 1997 Red Wings were like that. The 98 team as well.

If teams know they can push you around then they will. If they know you will make them pay a price for messing with them then they will be less likely to continue doing it. All teams know if they go after any Bruin, there will be a price to pay. Their players are willing to kill off a penalty if it means sticking up for themselves. The Wings need to be more like that. The Wings do stick up for themselves some of the time. But there are many cases where I'll be watching the game and I'll wish a Red Wings player would step in and DO SOMETHING. ANYTHING. Just (as the movie Slapshot says) let em know yer there.

Edited by Hatethedrake!, 09 January 2012 - 01:46 PM.

[kipwinger]

No one can deliver a hit like the refs. Can anyone deny that they are having much more of an impact on the outcome of games than any enforcer?

I agree to an extent, but not necessarily in the way that you're implying. In an effort to increase the profile of the NHL, to attract more non-traditional fans, and to increase offense, the owners, GM's, and most importantly the board of governors hired Gary Bettman with the expressed desire to increase offense and scoring in the league. Bettman has done exactly what he was hired to do, increase the tempo and skill level of the game. He's done this by changing the rules of the game and how it's called. We don't have two line passing anymore, they moved faceoffs after penalties into the offensive zone, they don't allow clutching and grabbing the way that they used to. The refs aren't doing this for the hell of it, there was a very clear change to the way that the game was going to be played after the NHL hired Bettman. Now we have to live with more penalties, more speed, and everything else that comes with that type of game...including the diminished role of enforcer types, an emphasis on skill over power, concussions, dirty hits, ect. So I agree that the refs are a bigger part of the game now, but only because that was what Bettman did to increase offense, and that was what the league wanted when they hired the guy.

[newfy]

Toughness does play a role in winning a Cup. There is a difference between TEAM TOUGHNESS and Goon Toughness. For years the Blues have had players on its roster whose sole purpose was to beat you up and nothing more. It usually happened when their team was getting their ass kicked on the scoreboard.

Cherry makes a good point in that you do need some toughness on your team to balance all the skill to win a Cup. The Habs of the 60s had John Ferguson. But also Larry Robinson was one of their best players and he could beat up anyone in the league in a fight. The Oilers had Mark Messier and he was not only one of the best players of his generation but also one of the toughest. They also had Dave Semenko who acted as Wayne Gretzky's bodyguard. This of course was all pre-Instigator Rule Hockey where for the most part, the players policed themselves. Guys like Jordan Toootoo could not exist playing in the 80s. He'd get his ass beat and ran out of the league.

The Wings had guys like Probert and Kocur to keep players away from Stevie Y. Probert could actually play the game though. I think he still has the Wings record for playoff points in a series. It didn't hurt he got to play on the same line as #19. Stll, Probie had value. Not just for his pugilistic prowess but for his ability to play the game.

In 2008 we had Dallas Drake who didn't do much in the regular season but was integral in our Cup run. Holland knew his value come playoff time which is why he was signed and it paid off. To me toughness isn't so much fighting, it's sticking up for your teammates. Being hard to play against. Watch the Bruins play. They are the toughest team in the league. When one of its players are cheapshotted, all their players are all over the guy who ran their teammate. I love that about that team. The 1997 Red Wings were like that. The 98 team as well.

If teams know they can push you around then they will. If they know you will make them pay a price for messing with them then they will be less likely to continue doing it. All teams know if they go after any Bruin, there will be a price to pay. Their players are willing to kill off a penalty if it means sticking up for themselves. The Wings need to be more like that. The Wings do stick up for themselves some of the time. But there are many cases where I'll be watching the game and I'll wish a Red Wings player would step in and DO SOMETHING. ANYTHING. Just (as the movie Slapshot says) let em know yer there.

I agree with this post, but thats a big problem with this team this yyear. They dont stick up for their teammates really except for Commodore who hasnt played a whole lot.


Their goalie who is putting up numbers that could lead to a Vezina nomination had to call this team out because he was getting hit so much. They never even get in someones face for a borderline hit it seems, a Dallas Drake would have done that.

Abdelkader and Ericcson are fairly tough players and capable of handling those types of situations, but they seem to avoid it knowing that noone will have their back. The game Commie played with St Louis, all 3 were on the ice Crombeen took a run at Commie, Abdelkader went after him, Commie got right in there gloves off and Ericcson was right in there as well. If the wings could just add one forward that could spark this team like tha and have the Abdelkaders, Berts and Ericcsons who are actually pretty tough in their own right willing to defend eachother because someone has their back, then this tea would look much more respectable from that stand point.

Doesnt even have to be a Colton Orr type but a smaller guy like Dorsett who just has that mentality would help spark those other guys and a bit more team toughness.

[Hatethedrake!]

I agree with this post, but thats a big problem with this team this yyear. They dont stick up for their teammates really except for Commodore who hasnt played a whole lot.


Their goalie who is putting up numbers that could lead to a Vezina nomination had to call this team out because he was getting hit so much. They never even get in someones face for a borderline hit it seems, a Dallas Drake would have done that.

Abdelkader and Ericcson are fairly tough players and capable of handling those types of situations, but they seem to avoid it knowing that noone will have their back. The game Commie played with St Louis, all 3 were on the ice Crombeen took a run at Commie, Abdelkader went after him, Commie got right in there gloves off and Ericcson was right in there as well. If the wings could just add one forward that could spark this team like tha and have the Abdelkaders, Berts and Ericcsons who are actually pretty tough in their own right willing to defend eachother because someone has their back, then this tea would look much more respectable from that stand point.

Doesnt even have to be a Colton Orr type but a smaller guy like Dorsett who just has that mentality would help spark those other guys and a bit more team toughness.

A poster earlier suggested Travis Moen. He'd be perfect for this team in the playoffs. If the Habs are in selling mode at the trade deadline, alot of teams will be after that guy.

[newfy]

A poster earlier suggested Travis Moen. He'd be perfect for this team in the playoffs. If the Habs are in selling mode at the trade deadline, alot of teams will be after that guy.

Travis Moen would be nice.

Gives a bottom 6 of

Moen - Helm - Cleary

Mursak - Abdelkader - Miller

That third line reminds me a lot of the third line in 2008.

I also wouldnt mind seeing Gaustad come in and play the third line center role which would allow Abdelkader to stick on the wing and bump Helm to the fourth line

[Hatethedrake!]

Travis Moen would be nice.

Gives a bottom 6 of

Moen - Helm - Cleary

Mursak - Abdelkader - Miller

That third line reminds me a lot of the third line in 2008.

I also wouldnt mind seeing Gaustad come in and play the third line center role which would allow Abdelkader to stick on the wing and bump Helm to the fourth line

I like Gaustad as well. I think Babs will want Helm for the 3rd line because of his speed. The more ice time Helm can get in the playoffs the better. Some players are just better in the playoffs than in the regular season (see Franzen) and Moen fits this criteria. Also, I would rather have Eaves than Miller provided he is healthy enough. Furthermore, I'm not sure Mursak would be in Babs' line-up. He's never played a playoff game and is an unknown factor right now. We'll see how he plays when he does get into the line-up. I know Babs and Kenny have high expectations for the kid with his speed.

Edited by Hatethedrake!, 09 January 2012 - 03:12 PM.