258 replies to this topic

[kipwinger]

Helm now is not what he was in 2008 when it came to physicality. that was his only responsibility on that 4th line was to run around hitting everything.

But youre seriously going to sit here and say that Miller, Eaves and especially Conner of all people are the types of guys that can finish their checks and wear another team down in the playoffs then you dont watch hockey. Its not just about rubbing a guy into the boards, its about putting them into the fourth row so next time they dont want the puck. See Dallas Drake on Robidas 2008.

I think Abdelkader can be that guy when he plays the wing (which he isnt), and Helm and Cleary both amp it up in the playoffs and are solid physically, but none of those guys are physical game changers and Miller/Eaves/Conner are hardly physical at all.

Some people who comment on things and say that "Oh we're gritty and tough because Miller, Eaves and now Conner because they dump and chase and will shoulder a guy" have been watching to much hockey in Europe I would have to say

Miller and Eaves block shots, kill penalties, finish checks, and play solid defense. I'm sorry that they don't destroy dudes with every check. You know who else didn't? Draper and Maltby, and everyone around here (rightly) worships them like gods for their gritty play.

Additionally, if our entire bottom six consisted of Darren McCarty type guys, we wouldf****** suck.

Edited by kipwinger, 10 January 2012 - 11:17 AM.

[F.Michael]

Miller and Eaves block shots, kill penalties, finish checks, and play solid defense. I'm sorry that they don't destroy dudes with every check. You know who else didn't? Draper and Maltby, and everyone around here (rightly) worships them like gods for their gritty play.

Additionally, if our entire bottom six consisted of Darren McCarty type guys, we wouldf****** suck.

One could argue the same could be said if our bottom 6 were Drew Miller types.

[kipwinger]

Why is it that every time I hear someone going gaga over all this hard hitting, "putting guys into the fourth row" business, I always imagining them slamming a beer, crushing it on their foreheads, and then high-fiving their bros. over how awesome it is? Then I get sucked back into reality and thank god that I'm a fan of a team who is among the least penalized in the league every year and is therefore constantly at an advantage because they don't skate around taking runs at guys, retaliating, getting into fights, or instigating.

One could argue the same could be said if our bottom 6 were Drew Miller types.

touche, but all I've ever said (from the beginning) is that our bottom six is fine, and is plenty physical and/or gritty enough. Making it more so would be pointless, potentially disadvantageous, and costly. We don't get beat because our bottom six is too soft, we get beat because our top six is not as deep as the top six of other elite hockey teams.

Edited by kipwinger, 10 January 2012 - 11:25 AM.

[newfy]

Miller and Eaves block shots, kill penalties, finish checks, and play solid defense. I'm sorry that they don't destroy dudes with every check. You know who else didn't? Draper and Maltby, and everyone around here (rightly) worships them like gods for their gritty play.

Additionally, if our entire bottom six consisted of Darren McCarty type guys, we wouldf****** suck.

Well for starters, Maltby and Draper would get a pass from me for not being physical because they were by far the bes tPKers in the league, and Draper probably the best shut down forward. He actually made an Olympic team for that reason.

But Draper and especially Maltby were MUCH more physical than Miller or Eaves and its not close really. Maltby in his prime was a wrecking ball out there. The fact that you even compared Eaves and Miller to these 2 shows how out of touch with hockey you really are.

When has Miller came close to this


Or even this when Maltby was completely washed up

[Din758]

Or even this when Maltby was completely washed up

Fairly sure this would be a suspension today

[F.Michael]

Why is it that every time I hear someone going gaga over all this hard hitting, "putting guys into the fourth row" business, I always imagining them slamming a beer, crushing it on their foreheads, and then high-fiving their bros. over how awesome it is? Then I get sucked back into reality and thank god that I'm a fan of a team who is among the least penalized in the league every year and is therefore constantly at an advantage because they don't skate around taking runs at guys, retaliating, getting into fights, or instigating.



touche, but all I've ever said (from the beginning) is that our bottom six is fine, and is plenty physical and/or gritty enough. Making it more so would be pointless, potentially disadvantageous, and costly. We don't get beat because our bottom six is too soft, we get beat because our top six is not as deep as the top six of other elite hockey teams.

Honsstly I think we could see an improvement on both the top 6 group, and bottom 6 group of forwards.

Our top 6 could use a more consistent goal scorer, and the bottom 6 could use a "few" more ornery types that during the course of a 7 game series they wear down the opposing dmen, and wreak havoc around the net.

[Heaten]

Video up

http://www.youtube.c...bEOGTn5k&sns=em

Who is that guy? He's an idiot. Is he seriously on TV or does he just do an amateur YOUTUBE channel that talks BS hockey? Awful

Edited by Heaten, 10 January 2012 - 02:59 PM.

[blgillett]

Don Cherry is the biggest moron in hockey enough said

Anyone see that?

100% agree with Don on this one.

[kipwinger]

Well for starters, Maltby and Draper would get a pass from me for not being physical because they were by far the bes tPKers in the league, and Draper probably the best shut down forward. He actually made an Olympic team for that reason.

But Draper and especially Maltby were MUCH more physical than Miller or Eaves and its not close really. Maltby in his prime was a wrecking ball out there. The fact that you even compared Eaves and Miller to these 2 shows how out of touch with hockey you really are.

When has Miller came close to this
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=JvdrsxKrSSo

Or even this when Maltby was completely washed up
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=xAvCZolIYBg

So you found two youtube clips and now Maltby is a "wrecking ball"? And I'm out of touch? Pretty sure Maltby was an annoying, in your face, pestering type defensive forward...that...or a "total wrecking ball" dude! Look, I'm as big of a homer as anybody here, but to suggest that Maltby and Drapes were much (or any) more physical than Miller and Eaves is kind of a stretch. I find it humorous that in the quest to justify the myth that finesse teams can't cups, Maltby is turned into a "wrecking ball", Miller and Eaves become soft little ******* who don't finish checks, block shots, or kill penalties worth a damn, and guys like Downey, May, and Drake become contributing He-men. But just for fun's sake...

here's Eaves destroying a guy...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnuPWBiAyqM
here's Eaves destroying a guy and then fighting 15 seconds later...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wW1QRqBLLc
here's Eaves blocking a shot and crawling off the ice to avoid a stoppage in play...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQGT1fVgd_I
here's Eaves destroying another guy...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otKFZjSHCg8
here's Eaves fighting another guy...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=um7KGKmFf8Q
here's Eaves destroying another guy...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgQ_CcEfYg8
here's Eaves destroying another guy...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otuHLZHATdM

Holy s*** dude, by your rationale Eaves should be considered, at the very least, a "wrecking ball" and at most the greatest physical presence the league has ever know. Should I spend five seconds on youtube finding Miller lighting people up too, or can you inwardly recognize that a) Miller and Eaves are as physical as Maltby and Draper, b) none of the four of them were "wrecking balls" and didn't really need to be to play an effective game?

I guess the big difference is that after the Maltby hits in your videos there was a scrum (no fights) and then the Wings returned to the bench, while after the Eaves hits in my videos there were scrums (no fights) and the Wings returned to the bench. Man is this year's team soft.

Edited by kipwinger, 10 January 2012 - 04:31 PM.

[kipwinger]

Honsstly I think we could see an improvement on both the top 6 group, and bottom 6 group of forwards.

Our top 6 could use a more consistent goal scorer, and the bottom 6 could use a "few" more ornery types that during the course of a 7 game series they wear down the opposing dmen, and wreak havoc around the net.

Can you give me a couple of names, just so I know what type of "ornery" player you're looking for here? Jordin Tootoo? Dan Carcillo?

[Wings_Toledo]

Get rid of the instigator and I bet you'd see more guys on the current roster drop the mitts. The Wings are just coached not to take unnecessary penalties and I think people calling for Holland to get a "tough guy" for the 4th line tend to forget this at times. The only real need I see for this team is a consistent goal-scoring winger for the top six, but I'd rather Holland wait until the offseason than give up too much to get one extra piece.

Oh, and Don Cherry still thinks it's the 70s for some reason. He has no real grip on hockey in the modern era.

[kipwinger]

Get rid of the instigator and I bet you'd see more guys on the current roster drop the mitts. The Wings are just coached not to take unnecessary penalties and I think people calling for Holland to get a "tough guy" for the 4th line tend to forget this at times. The only real need I see for this team is a consistent goal-scoring winger for the top six, but I'd rather Holland wait until the offseason than give up too much to get one extra piece.

Oh, and Don Cherry still thinks it's the 70s for some reason. He has no real grip on hockey in the modern era.

Agreed on all points.

[F.Michael]

Get rid of the instigator and I bet you'd see more guys on the current roster drop the mitts. The Wings are just coached not to take unnecessary penalties and I think people calling for Holland to get a "tough guy" for the 4th line tend to forget this at times. The only real need I see for this team is a consistent goal-scoring winger for the top six, but I'd rather Holland wait until the offseason than give up too much to get one extra piece.

Oh, and Don Cherry still thinks it's the 70s for some reason. He has no real grip on hockey in the modern era.

I respectfully disagree.

[Electrophile]

Get rid of the instigator and I bet you'd see more guys on the current roster drop the mitts. The Wings are just coached not to take unnecessary penalties and I think people calling for Holland to get a "tough guy" for the 4th line tend to forget this at times. The only real need I see for this team is a consistent goal-scoring winger for the top six, but I'd rather Holland wait until the offseason than give up too much to get one extra piece.

Oh, and Don Cherry still thinks it's the 70s for some reason. He has no real grip on hockey in the modern era.

This, that, and what he said.

[uk_redwing]

So you found two youtube clips and now Maltby is a "wrecking ball"? And I'm out of touch? Pretty sure Maltby was an annoying, in your face, pestering type defensive forward...that...or a "total wrecking ball" dude! Look, I'm as big of a homer as anybody here, but to suggest that Maltby and Drapes were much (or any) more physical than Miller and Eaves is kind of a stretch. I find it humorous that in the quest to justify the myth that finesse teams can't cups, Maltby is turned into a "wrecking ball", Miller and Eaves become soft little ******* who don't finish checks, block shots, or kill penalties worth a damn, and guys like Downey, May, and Drake become contributing He-men. But just for fun's sake...

here's Eaves destroying a guy...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnuPWBiAyqM
here's Eaves destroying a guy and then fighting 15 seconds later...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wW1QRqBLLc
here's Eaves blocking a shot and crawling off the ice to avoid a stoppage in play...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQGT1fVgd_I
here's Eaves destroying another guy...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otKFZjSHCg8
here's Eaves fighting another guy...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=um7KGKmFf8Q
here's Eaves destroying another guy...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgQ_CcEfYg8
here's Eaves destroying another guy...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otuHLZHATdM

Holy s*** dude, by your rationale Eaves should be considered, at the very least, a "wrecking ball" and at most the greatest physical presence the league has ever know. Should I spend five seconds on youtube finding Miller lighting people up too, or can you inwardly recognize that a) Miller and Eaves are as physical as Maltby and Draper, b) none of the four of them were "wrecking balls" and didn't really need to be to play an effective game?

I guess the big difference is that after the Maltby hits in your videos there was a scrum (no fights) and then the Wings returned to the bench, while after the Eaves hits in my videos there were scrums (no fights) and the Wings returned to the bench. Man is this year's team soft.

Do you not realise the difference in the amount of video clips online from the last few years (Eaves) and over a decade ago (prime Maltby)?

Especially with your posting attitude. Amount of clips on Youtube, given the different era's, is not a viable argument.

[newfy]

Do you not realise the difference in the amount of video clips online from the last few years (Eaves) and over a decade ago (prime Maltby)?

Especially with your posting attitude. Amount of clips on Youtube, given the different era's, is not a viable argument.

No kidding haha. I have a feeling Kipwinger wasnt watching hockey back in the 90s to see a prime Maltby. He was a top notch agitator and definitely a big hitter.

Notice how he found 0 clips f Miller though?

[Mark THS]

Tonight is a legitimate reason why its nice to have a guy willing to get physical. Zero spark. Zero energy. Nobody making any effort or attempt to energize the team and shift the status quo of a lethargic game.

[Detroit # 1 Fan]

Saw this gem on twitter today from Khan:

Babcock: “I wish we were the biggest, toughest, ugliest team in organized hockey. That's not how we're built, so you coach what you got.''

[kipwinger]

Do you not realise the difference in the amount of video clips online from the last few years (Eaves) and over a decade ago (prime Maltby)?

Especially with your posting attitude. Amount of clips on Youtube, given the different era's, is not a viable argument.

Ok, let me make this painfully obvious to you...my original comments, oh so long ago, were that our bottom six was already gritty and tough enough. Additionally, I pointed out that even back in the hey day of the late 90's and early 2000's, there were guys on the bottom six who aren't known for being tough guys...e.g. Draper, Maltby. They were definitely gritty...but so are Eaves and Miller and many of the guys on our team now. You claimed that Maltby was a "wrecking ball" back then, scoffed at the idea that our guys now have any kind of toughness, and used two pathetic videos to prove your point. In response, I showed that if hitting guys hard, blocking shots, and fighting videos are what you consider tough...then Eaves (at least) still fits the bill. And I was only ever saying that he was (at least) as tough a Maltby. There were other guys then, and now, tougher than both of them. So now we're at a bit of a quandry because I've shown you that if Maltby is a big tough guy for hitting hard, then Eaves is too...for the same reason...with video evidence. We both agreed that neither Draper nor Miller play a really hard nosed physical game on ice, but considering they both killed penalties, block shots, etc. I think in the toughness category...it's sort of a wash. Now if you want to suggest that a team with the remaining bottom six of Lapointe, McCarty, Deveroux, or Kocur. from the hey day is a better bottom six, I'd disagree, but understand that it's your preference. But if you want to say that a bottom six with those guys, plus draper and maltby, is far and away more physical...and therefore more likely to win championships then you're absurd.

[kipwinger]

No kidding haha. I have a feeling Kipwinger wasnt watching hockey back in the 90s to see a prime Maltby. He was a top notch agitator and definitely a big hitter.

Notice how he found 0 clips f Miller though?

How nice, you're playing second banana to a guy who claims Kirk Maltby is a "wrecking ball". I said Eaves and Miller where as tough as Draper and Maltby...he disagreed and said Drapes and Maltby were tougher and provided two videos of Maltby hitting hard to prove it. I responded by showing that Eaves hits, as well as fights (something Maltby rarely did), just as much as Maltby ever did. Obviously Miller hits and fights less than Eaves or Maltby, guess who else does...DRAPER...which was my original point in the first place. I'll say it again 'DRAPER AND MALTBY ARE NOT MORE PHYSICAL THAN EAVES AND MILLER!" If I can show, with video, that Eaves hits big and fights as much as Maltby, and neither Draper or Miller do either of those things...then the point is made. So that's how the debate went with the other guy, that's what we were talking about...where did you come in again? That's right, you came in right at the end...without reading much of the thread, obviously...in order to make some sort of snarky comment about how I must not have watched as much hockey as you clearly must have because if I had I'd have noticed that Maltby was a "big hitter", which is too stupid to be anything but laughable. Konstantinov was a big hitter, Kronwall is a big hitter, Stuart is a big hitter, Scott Stevens is a big hitter...Maltby...um...a big...oh that's right, Maltby was a fourth line grinder who finished his checks. It's amazing that in an attempt to make a wrong headed point, you and the other guy have made Maltby into a "wrecking ball" and a "big hitter". Something nobody...ever...aside from the two of you clowns, has ever considered him-before, during, or since the beginning of his career.