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Cherry rips Holland


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#161 newfy

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 02:15 PM

Yeah Martin has 10 points in 40 games this season, compared to 14 in 68 last year, so he's no slouch. Clifford's at about the same offensive pace he was last season for ~15 points.

He was the captain of the sting when I had season tickets and is from near my hometown so I kinda like him more than most would but the kid hits everything that moves, its too bad the wings couldnt offer Miller to the Isles for Martin straight up and just throw him on our fourth line to watch him and Abby raise hell

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#162 Bring Back The Bruise Bros

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 02:27 PM

He was the captain of the sting when I had season tickets and is from near my hometown so I kinda like him more than most would but the kid hits everything that moves, its too bad the wings couldnt offer Miller to the Isles for Martin straight up and just throw him on our fourth line to watch him and Abby raise hell

Well the Isles will be sellers at the deadline, no doubt, not sure who they are willing to get rid of. Tavares, Moulson, Grabner, and Streit may be the only untouchables, right now. On defense, I like Hamonic from the Isles as well.
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#163 redwingfan19

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 02:37 PM

Columbus is a mess right now and will be in fire sale mode. Boll would be a great addition and I would trade anyone from the bottom 6 not named Helm and Abby for him.

What is stopping Kenny from doing this again???

Edited by redwingfan19, 11 January 2012 - 02:38 PM.

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#164 esteef

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 02:41 PM

Columbus is a mess right now and will be in fire sale mode. Boll would be a great addition and I would trade anyone from the bottom 6 not named Helm and Abby for him.

What is stopping Kenny from doing this again???

His "scoring potential".

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#165 Doc Holliday

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 02:43 PM

Columbus is a mess right now and will be in fire sale mode. Boll would be a great addition and I would trade anyone from the bottom 6 not named Helm and Abby for him.

What is stopping Kenny from doing this again???


Columbus might not like what Detroit offers or will want too much.

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#166 redwingfan19

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 02:50 PM

Columbus might not like what Detroit offers or will want too much.

Tada.


Seriously, I doubt Columbus would be asking to much for Boll, one of Eaves, Emmerton, Miller, take your pick. If not then move on.
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#167 WorkingOvertime

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 02:59 PM

Columbus is a mess right now and will be in fire sale mode. Boll would be a great addition and I would trade anyone from the bottom 6 not named Helm and Abby for him.

What is stopping Kenny from doing this again???

Boll is perfect for the Wings. Last night he was involved in two fights and the others player received an instigator both times. Boll can give the Wings power plays and fights.

#168 F.Michael

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 03:38 PM

As already noted, more potential as that is all you have to go on in the draft. It is a crapshoot for the most part and you can go on and on all day, week, month coming up with examples of why was so and so chosen over so and so. I'll give you another, why did the Wings pick Jody Gage and Boris Fistric instead of Mark Messier?

Looking at the players you pointed out though, using a purely stats based analysis (much more goes into the draft obviously), you'll get the following (from year they were drafted). I left out Axelsson as he was playing in Europe, harder to compare from pure stats perspective vs. the other guys that all played in the CHL.

Emmerton - 6'0", 190 lbs, 66 games, 90 pts
Matthias - 6'4", 216lbs, 67 games, 34 pts

Lucic - 6'4", 220lbs, 62 games, 19 pts
Marchand - 5'9", 190lbs, 68 games, 66 pts

Looking at that and knowing the draft is a crapshoot, it should make a lot of sense as to why Emmerton and Matthias were drafted ahead of Lucic and Marchand. Emmerton clearly looked to have the most offensive upside and he had good size. Matthias and Lucic were both had great size, but Matthias appeared to have better offensive upside (they were both drafted very close together. While Marchand appeared to be better offsensively than those to, he was very small. Guys like him often don't even get drafted. If you are that size, you have to be great offensively to get a sniff and it's not like he was lights out in that regard, he was just about 1 ppg.

You've left out the most important stats - pim, and fighting majors :lol:

On a serious note - I understand where it's a crapshoot when ya consider that these are 18 yr olds, and in many cases these kids are drafted based on their point performance, but there's gotta be something else out there that seperates themselves from one another be it their physical play, or locker room attitude?

Seems like the Wings have a plethora of these guys.

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#169 kipwinger

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 03:42 PM

Literally the worst stat the NHL keeps track of lol.

Last year Chad Larose 5'9 and not tough was ahead of Brad Stuart and near the top of the league in hits, same with Darrol Powe.

Kronwall doesnt consistently throw little tiny hits ( what Miller and Eaves do) but he'll unload with a huge one that can change a game or a series. The hit stat is good for comparing guys on the same team but the actual numbers are terrible.


I know, its rare to see a coach come right out and say it like that. That coupled with Howards comments would really have me lose a bit of faith in Holland if he didnt address it a little bit anyways.


I've already shown you video evidence of the types of hits Eaves throws (obviously not every hit is big, but nobody can boast that), however it's inaccurate to say that he never throws big hits. Secondly, isn't throwing a whole bunch of little hits, but doing it all the time, sort of a cornerstone of the "grinding" concept we're all so fond of?

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Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

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#170 cnot19

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 03:48 PM

Would be willing to trade any or two of eaves, miller, emmerton for boll clifford or martin. Their size would make more a difference come playoff time.
Get me a real fourth line Kenny!

#171 cnot19

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 03:56 PM

I've already shown you video evidence of the types of hits Eaves throws (obviously not every hit is big, but nobody can boast that), however it's inaccurate to say that he never throws big hits. Secondly, isn't throwing a whole bunch of little hits, but doing it all the time, sort of a cornerstone of the "grinding" concept we're all so fond of?


I dont particularly disagree with you about Eaves throwing hits though, but I find many of hits have little if any effect. IMO he doesnt have the size or attidtude to throw hits that would wear a team down like a Konopka, Clowe, Martin, or even an attitude like clutterbuck. These guys hit to wear the other team down and hit to cause pain.
Get me a real fourth line Kenny!

#172 kipwinger

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 04:09 PM

I dont particularly disagree with you about Eaves throwing hits though, but I find many of hits have little if any effect. IMO he doesnt have the size or attidtude to throw hits that would wear a team down like a Konopka, Clowe, Martin, or even an attitude like clutterbuck. These guys hit to wear the other team down and hit to cause pain.


I agree, but you're talking about some of the biggest and hardest hitters in the league...I'm not comparing Eaves to Clutterbuck and Clowe, I'm comparing him to Malty, who was an effective fourth line grinder without being the biggest or baddest dude in the league. My whole argument was that our bottom six is no less physical than it was in our hey day. Yes, Clowe and Clutterbuck are big, tough dudes...and yes, San Jose and Minnesota are both more physical teams than Detroit, but it doesn't seem to have brought them any more success than we've had...in fact, less so. This whole debate began with the assertion that Detroit is too soft to be successful in the playoffs, and that when they've had success in the playoffs it was because we were tougher, or grittier, or something...which I think is a baseless argument made by people who just happen to prefer a more physical game, regardless of its efficiency.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#173 PROBIE4PREZ

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 05:56 PM

Dallas Drake and part timer D-Mac were the enforcers on our 2008 squad? Who was in 2009 then? I know we lost, but I'm trying to figure out who the 'tough guy' was that season. Brad May?

Edited by PROBIE4PREZ, 11 January 2012 - 05:56 PM.

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#174 esteef

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 09:17 PM

I love how Tim Thomas gets ALL the credit for the Bruins winning the Cup in these threads. Probably because that's a hell of a lot easier than acknowledging the fact that Boston was chock full of fighting players that could beat up our entire team and they won the Cup. People around here talk like if we had just ONE of those guys we'd be lucky to make the playoffs. Especially with our s***ty roster full of guys like Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom...

I bet if Boston lost it would've been blamed on "not enough skill" in the lineup.

esteef

edited fer dum spellin

Edited by esteef, 11 January 2012 - 11:15 PM.

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#175 Joe S

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 11:06 PM

I didnt see or hear what Cherry said, but the Wings need to play with more grit. When the Wings have the puck near the boards, they get smashed. When the other team has the puck near the boards, the Wings merely try to poke the puck with the stick. Before you all jump in with "what about Kronwall's hit on so and so" let me state that the Wings are capable of playing with more grit, they just dont do it consistently.I prefer the finess that the Wings bring to the game, but a talented physical team will beat an equally talented finess team four games out of seven. Just my opinion, fwiw. Joe S

#176 GMRwings1983

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 11:32 PM

Holland should have responded that he didn't hear what Cherry said, because he had his two Stanley Cup rings plugged into his ears. :P
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#177 Buppy

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 11:43 PM

I love how Tim Thomas gets ALL the credit for the Bruins winning the Cup in these threads. Probably because that's a hell of a lot easier than acknowleging the fact that Boston was chock full of fighting players that could beat up our entire team and they won the Cup. People around here talk like if we had just ONE of those guys we'd be lucky to make the playoffs. Especially with our s***ty roster full of guys like Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom...

I bet if Boston lost it would've been blamed on "not enough skill" in the lineup.

esteef

Yeah, almost like he's considered some sort of Highly Important Participant. As if he was awarded some HIP trophy, or something to that effect...

No one makes valid arguments in these threads. Histrionics and fallacies are what the internet is made of.

No one really believes that having a fighter who can still play a regular shift would hurt the team. For that matter, I doubt anyone honestly believes that a Downey-esque goon would really hurt. But when these threads come up suggesting we "need" someone like that, "not really, but whatever" doesn't seem like a very strong argument. It sounds much more sensational to point out how bad a team full of goons would be, even if no one was suggesting it.

And it goes both ways. No one is actually saying a tough team can't win, or that adding someone like Moen would be bad. Nor is anyone suggesting that we should have a team completely devoid of any physical element. But admitting that fighters/grinder (better than what we already have) aren't that important and/or that we are already a contender without one isn't a particularly convincing argument for going out and getting one. So you have to blow it way out of proportion into some vital need.

Personally, I've already said that the Wings getting more physical could help. I think the top 6 would benefit more, but I wouldn't have any problem adding someone in the bottom 6 either. Kids like Emmy, Mursak, and Gus will get their shot; here or elsewhere. We don't need them now. Miller, Eaves, and Conner I don't particularly care about. The other 10 I think we need (unless we add another top 6 forward). So one spot (or two if they can also play the PK) to add some "toughness". It could help. Wouldn't hurt at least. I don't think a 4th-liner is going to make any big difference, and I don't think it's needed, but whatever.

Now let's see if any from the pro-fighter camp have the balls to be rational and admit that a soft team like us could win a Cup anyway, or even that the '08 team was pretty soft.

And yes, had Boston lost it likely would have been because they didn't have enough skill. Are you suggesting that it would have been because they were too soft?

#178 redwingfan19

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Posted 11 January 2012 - 11:55 PM

^^^^^

I think the team we have now could win a cup, but I don't think they can afford to go down 2-0 in a series again. This team is not currently built to grind out multiple 7 games series. If Jimmy remains solid and they can pounce on teams early and often, they could win it.
You may not like tough hockey, but it's winning hockey.

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#179 Red Wings Addict

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 12:23 AM

Dallas Drake and part timer D-Mac were the enforcers on our 2008 squad? Who was in 2009 then? I know we lost, but I'm trying to figure out who the 'tough guy' was that season. Brad May?


Downey was up and down from GR to DET.

#180 newfy

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Posted 12 January 2012 - 12:49 AM

No one really believes that having a fighter who can still play a regular shift would hurt the team. For that matter, I doubt anyone honestly believes that a Downey-esque goon would really hurt. But when these threads come up suggesting we "need" someone like that, "not really, but whatever" doesn't seem like a very strong argument. It sounds much more sensational to point out how bad a team full of goons would be, even if no one was suggesting it.

And it goes both ways. No one is actually saying a tough team can't win, or that adding someone like Moen would be bad. Nor is anyone suggesting that we should have a team completely devoid of any physical element. But admitting that fighters/grinder (better than what we already have) aren't that important and/or that we are already a contender without one isn't a particularly convincing argument for going out and getting one. So you have to blow it way out of proportion into some vital need.

Personally, I've already said that the Wings getting more physical could help. I think the top 6 would benefit more, but I wouldn't have any problem adding someone in the bottom 6 either. Kids like Emmy, Mursak, and Gus will get their shot; here or elsewhere. We don't need them now. Miller, Eaves, and Conner I don't particularly care about. The other 10 I think we need (unless we add another top 6 forward). So one spot (or two if they can also play the PK) to add some "toughness". It could help. Wouldn't hurt at least. I don't think a 4th-liner is going to make any big difference, and I don't think it's needed, but whatever.

Now let's see if any from the pro-fighter camp have the balls to be rational and admit that a soft team like us could win a Cup anyway, or even that the '08 team was pretty soft.

Ill give it a try since youre trying to act like anyone who likes tough hockey cant use rational.

First of all, there are a few (not a tonne) that think that adding a fighter would really hinder the team. I'm here nor there, not really a fan of bringing in a Colton Orr 3 minute a night player personally, I wont speak for the ones that are. There are also a large amount that are ridiculously attached to the current team for whatever reason and think that a team that has went out second round 2 years in a row now doesnt need any changes. In the playoffs both years Miller and Eaves never ramped it up, they simply arent warriors out there like we've had in the past.

There are also a lot of people who may not think that it would really hurt to add a Tim Jackman/Matt Martin/Prust/Clarkson or whoever but they also say it would have no real impact and thats where I think they are wrong. Some people simply dont see it as a real part of the game with a real impact, I would say anyone who has played at an even somewhat high level would disagree (Babcock for example). Whereas guys like me, argue with people who say Drew Miller has as much impact on a game as these guys, which I simply think isnt true, a lot of people will read a stat sheet and see 5 or 6 more points and say that hes the best option out there.

Detroit has never been the toughest team when they were winning, but they were always the most balanced which this team lacks right now. Back in the late 90s, they never had the most fights but always had the personnel that when the going got tough, they could handle that area of the game pretty easily, even if they werent fighting they were playing a much more physical brand of hockey. Despite what Kipwinger will say, back then Maltby was a pretty physical guy and a premiere pest in the league, Mccarty was always tough, Kocur could handle anyone and the top 6 had Shanny. That team could handle brawls like they had with the Avs and still score goals. They could step up for their team and take on those situations and coming out ahead afterwards.

Even in 2008, a third line of Drake Draper Cleary is pretty physical (Drake was a machine in the playoffs) and rookie Helm with no responsibility except to run around full tilt and smash guys. Having balance is what matters, the wings can score goals now but can they wear down a defense? I sure dont think so, do they have a guy willing to spark the team with a big hit or fight consistently every night because he has a mean streak? Nope. All Detroits cup teams had a couple guys like that, this team is lacking. Those cup winning teams would never let their goalie do the fighting for themselves, unless it was against Roy. This team now had Howard donig it every other night it seemed. When a goalie is putting together a Vezina like season, there is no way he should be getting hit, its called team chemistry. If your goalie jumps a guy, you drop your mitts grab the guy and pound him, even if you were the one that pushed him into the goalie and know the goalie was in the wrong? WHy? Because hes your goalie and you stick up for him

This team doesnt do that, guys like Miller skate around show a glimpse of skill every now and then, same with Eaves but do nothing that great. They "PK", meanwhile our PK isnt that great. I'm sick of seeing a dead team have noone that can spark it when the skill isnt working, I'm sick of seeing Howard fight his own battles and I'm sick of having Commodore being the only one who will go to the aid of a teammate.

Hopefully something like Moen for Miller at the deadline can happen and at least itll be a step in the right direction

RIP BOB PROBERT #24






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