63 replies to this topic

[unsaddleddonald]

This upcoming off-season has a lot of high-end talent becoming UFAs, if memory serves. I can very easily see Holland sitting on his hands at the deadline in hopes of picking up someone on July 1st, after another likely playoff exit, and signing a top 3 forward or top 2 defensman to a long-term contract.

Its an interesting option: Sacrifice some pieces of our future for a stronger shot at the Cup now (with Lidstrom, Homer, Stuart all still a part of the organization), with the possible risk of our acquisition leaving in the off-season, or go into the playoffs this year with what we have, keep the prospects, and go for a star player for cheaper in the off season to be a contender for years to come. The issue is whether years to come will include tough to replace pieces like Lids, Stuie, and Homer (regardless of what people's opinions of him are).

I guess for me it would be the kind of deal in place. Say for example we don't make a move: that means we would have had ~$6 million that we didn't use for this season meaning that we would have been in the same situation if we didn't have that space (i.e. we had $6 mil to spend and we just sat on it).

$6 mil is great for a rental player; at the end of the season that $6 mil will be right back in our hands again.

Of course it would depend on what we give up as to whether or not it would be worth it. "Experts" believe that we have one of the deepest farm clubs in the league, so i think that could give us some leeway into dishing out picks and/or prospects.

Edited by unsaddleddonald, 16 January 2012 - 06:14 PM.

[Icesurfer]

Can you imagine if Holland added Corey Perry, Bobby Ryan or Ryan Getzlaf? Brian Murray has stated that they are all available. Of course the Wings would have to put a package together to get one of them. But I will tell you now, if Datsyuk gets injured for a prolonged period the Wings are done. Look at Chicago.... they are without Sharp and it doesn't matter. Datsyuk misses one game and Detroit does not look the same.. even though Howie also missed that game.

Detroit needs a TOP forward if they seriously are to contend for the cup. The only one on the roster that Murray would probably want AND that Detroit would trade is Filppula along with some top prospects. Yeh, I know people see Filppula FINALLY starting to do something ...but it took SIX years. That is the point .... Filppula's stock is high right now.... but I don't expect it to stay up there. Filppula is doing better simply because Detroit is relying on him more and he is getting tons of ice time.

Detroit needs size, speed and toughness.... more than what Filppula can provide. I would take any one of the Ducks top forwards in a minute. Filppula has a tough time going up against the big forwards of Vancouver, San Jose, St. Louis and Chicago.... all possible opponents in the playoffs.

Also, the Wings are not going to be able to resign Stuart because he wants to live in California. So they would probably have to trade him for Beauchemin, Vlassic or Douglas Murray... although I would love the Wings to get Jack Johnson from LA.

Lastly, the Wings need a backup goalie.... everyone seems to think it will be Nabokov.

[Nightfall]

Can you imagine if Holland added Corey Perry, Bobby Ryan or Ryan Getzlaf? Brian Murray has stated that they are all available. Of course the Wings would have to put a package together to get one of them. But I will tell you now, if Datsyuk gets injured for a prolonged period the Wings are done. Look at Chicago.... they are without Sharp and it doesn't matter. Datsyuk misses one game and Detroit does not look the same.. even though Howie also missed that game.

Detroit needs a TOP forward if they seriously are to contend for the cup. The only one on the roster that Murray would probably want AND that Detroit would trade is Filppula along with some top prospects. Yeh, I know people see Filppula FINALLY starting to do something ...but it took SIX years. That is the point .... Filppula's stock is high right now.... but I don't expect it to stay up there. Filppula is doing better simply because Detroit is relying on him more and he is getting tons of ice time.

Detroit needs size, speed and toughness.... more than what Filppula can provide. I would take any one of the Ducks top forwards in a minute. Filppula has a tough time going up against the big forwards of Vancouver, San Jose, St. Louis and Chicago.... all possible opponents in the playoffs.

Also, the Wings are not going to be able to resign Stuart because he wants to live in California. So they would probably have to trade him for Beauchemin, Vlassic or Douglas Murray... although I would love the Wings to get Jack Johnson from LA.

Lastly, the Wings need a backup goalie.... everyone seems to think it will be Nabokov.

Sharp has been out one game for the Hawks. Lets see how they do the next 3-4 weeks. The Wings did without Dats for one game. I think to make a fair comparison, you should see how the Wings would have to do without Dats for an extended period of time. Not just one game and consider them to be horrible without him.

Any team is going to struggle without their top line players. Sharp is their 3rd scorer on the team and it will result in them losing some games.

So many people thinking that teams are going to trade Flip or Hudler for top line talent. I guess I better have what you are having.

Jack Johnson isn't worth trading for. Stuart is far better.

Nabokov isn't worth trading for either. The Isles will demand more than he is worth.

I am glad Holland is calling the shots for this team. He will make the right calls, and I can almost guarantee you that Hudler, Flip, Stuart, and Conklin will be with the team at the end of the playoffs.

[Icesurfer]

Sharp has been out one game for the Hawks. Lets see how they do the next 3-4 weeks. The Wings did without Dats for one game. I think to make a fair comparison, you should see how the Wings would have to do without Dats for an extended period of time. Not just one game and consider them to be horrible without him.

Any team is going to struggle without their top line players. Sharp is their 3rd scorer on the team and it will result in them losing some games.

So many people thinking that teams are going to trade Flip or Hudler for top line talent. I guess I better have what you are having.

Jack Johnson isn't worth trading for. Stuart is far better.

Nabokov isn't worth trading for either. The Isles will demand more than he is worth.

I am glad Holland is calling the shots for this team. He will make the right calls, and I can almost guarantee you that Hudler, Flip, Stuart, and Conklin will be with the team at the end of the playoffs.

Sharp has been out for FOUR games and Chicago has won three of them and almost came back to beat Detroit. Chicago has Hossa, Toews and Kane backing up Sharp. Who does Detroit have backing up Datsyuk?? NO ONE on the Red Wings is nearly as good as Datsyuk on BOTH offense AND defense.

Detroit needs another top forward... period. Detroit is going to have Hudler because no one would even want him.... he can not compete with the big teams like San Jose, St. Louis and Vancouver. Yeh he gets a few points against the smaller non-playoff teams... big deal.

San Jose already OWNS the Wings because of their size.... they play Red Wing hockey with SIZE! Detroit simply will not be able to compete in the playoffs if they have back-to-back series with St. Louis, San Jose or Vancouver.

Conklin is useless.... ANYONE would be better than him. IF Howie gets injured Wings are done. If Datsyuk gets injured at any point in March, April, etc... Wings are done. If Stuart stays with the Wings Detroit will get nothing for him.

There is really no one other than Filppula, who Detroit would be willing to trade, who can get you a player that is actually worth something. And like I wrote earlier to get a top forward two top prospects would have to be included with Filppula. Filppula's stock is high right now... come May it will be worthless.

There are now THREE good teams playing the "Red Wing" system..... San Jose, Chicago and St. Louis and they all have the size advantage. Filppula gets thrown to the ice almost as much as Hudler. The second line of Filppula, Z and Hudler will be a very weak one for the playoffs.

Edited by Icesurfer, 17 January 2012 - 03:16 AM.

[Nightfall]

Sharp has been out for FOUR games and Chicago has won three of them and almost came back to beat Detroit. Chicago has Hossa, Toews and Kane backing up Sharp. Who does Detroit have backing up Datsyuk?? NO ONE on the Red Wings is nearly as good as Datsyuk on BOTH offense AND defense.

Detroit needs another top forward... period. Detroit is going to have Hudler because no one would even want him.... he can not compete with the big teams like San Jose, St. Louis and Vancouver. Yeh he gets a few points against the smaller non-playoff teams... big deal.

San Jose already OWNS the Wings because of their size.... they play Red Wing hockey with SIZE! Detroit simply will not be able to compete in the playoffs if they have back-to-back series with St. Louis, San Jose or Vancouver.

Conklin is useless.... ANYONE would be better than him. IF Howie gets injured Wings are done. If Datsyuk gets injured at any point in March, April, etc... Wings are done. If Stuart stays with the Wings Detroit will get nothing for him.

There is really no one other than Filppula, who Detroit would be willing to trade, who can get you a player that is actually worth something. And like I wrote earlier to get a top forward two top prospects would have to be included with Filppula. Filppula's stock is high right now... come May it will be worthless.

There are now THREE good teams playing the "Red Wing" system..... San Jose, Chicago and St. Louis and they all have the size advantage. Filppula gets thrown to the ice almost as much as Hudler. The second line of Filppula, Z and Hudler will be a very weak one for the playoffs.

You are right. I thought he was only out 1 game and it was 4. Thanks for the correction.

Aside from that, I think you are going overboard on your analysis. Think back to 1996 and 1997 up until the playoffs when Colorado "owned" the Wings. The Shanahan trade really was huge, but we gave up Coffey and Primeau, who were good players. I don't see anything the Wings are willing to give up for a player like that this year.

This year, things will be different than last year. San Jose is a different team. Chicago is a different team. St. Louis is a very different team. Size means very little when you factor in grit and hard work. I see these things from the Wings more this year than last year. If you can't see it by their defensive play alone, then I can't help you.

What people want is for us to give up a s*** player for a exceptional one, and no team is going to make a trade for that. I would hope that Holland would NOT trade our future away. We have cap space, but what we don't have right now are prospects in the system that are exceptional players. I don't see the next Dats and Z in the system. I don't see the next Lids in the system either. I see good players, but no one who is going to light it up. When Z and Dats are gone, what are the Wings going to do if they traded away their future today?

Just something to think about. We have far too many people who believe that trading our future away right now is the way to go. We need to be more careful especially in the salary cap era.

[rick zombo]

You are right. I thought he was only out 1 game and it was 4. Thanks for the correction.

Aside from that, I think you are going overboard on your analysis. Think back to 1996 and 1997 up until the playoffs when Colorado "owned" the Wings. The Shanahan trade really was huge, but we gave up Coffey and Primeau, who were good players. I don't see anything the Wings are willing to give up for a player like that this year.

This year, things will be different than last year. San Jose is a different team. Chicago is a different team. St. Louis is a very different team. Size means very little when you factor in grit and hard work. I see these things from the Wings more this year than last year. If you can't see it by their defensive play alone, then I can't help you.

What people want is for us to give up a s*** player for a exceptional one, and no team is going to make a trade for that. I would hope that Holland would NOT trade our future away. We have cap space, but what we don't have right now are prospects in the system that are exceptional players. I don't see the next Dats and Z in the system. I don't see the next Lids in the system either. I see good players, but no one who is going to light it up. When Z and Dats are gone, what are the Wings going to do if they traded away their future today?

Just something to think about. We have far too many people who believe that trading our future away right now is the way to go. We need to be more careful especially in the salary cap era.

Agreed. But the good news is that Holland can be trusted to do this.

Edited by rick zombo, 17 January 2012 - 09:55 AM.

[Buppy]

...
What people want is for us to give up a s*** player for a exceptional one, and no team is going to make a trade for that. I would hope that Holland would NOT trade our future away. We have cap space, but what we don't have right now are prospects in the system that are exceptional players. I don't see the next Dats and Z in the system. I don't see the next Lids in the system either. I see good players, but no one who is going to light it up. When Z and Dats are gone, what are the Wings going to do if they traded away their future today?

Just something to think about. We have far too many people who believe that trading our future away right now is the way to go. We need to be more careful especially in the salary cap era.

If we were adding a player like Parise or Ryan, they would be our future (Parise would be a risk, but we have the capability of re-signing him). It would be well worth giving up a couple of our top forward prospects for someone like that. We'd likely have to give up Flip or Mule, which may look bad right now, but probably benefits us in the long run.

I don't think anyone is suggesting we trade all our top prospects and all our picks for a rental. Giving up one or two for a player that can help us both now and in the future is not trading away the future.

[achildr1]

You are right. I thought he was only out 1 game and it was 4. Thanks for the correction.

Aside from that, I think you are going overboard on your analysis. Think back to 1996 and 1997 up until the playoffs when Colorado "owned" the Wings. The Shanahan trade really was huge, but we gave up Coffey and Primeau, who were good players. I don't see anything the Wings are willing to give up for a player like that this year.

This year, things will be different than last year. San Jose is a different team. Chicago is a different team. St. Louis is a very different team. Size means very little when you factor in grit and hard work. I see these things from the Wings more this year than last year. If you can't see it by their defensive play alone, then I can't help you.

What people want is for us to give up a s*** player for a exceptional one, and no team is going to make a trade for that. I would hope that Holland would NOT trade our future away. We have cap space, but what we don't have right now are prospects in the system that are exceptional players. I don't see the next Dats and Z in the system. I don't see the next Lids in the system either. I see good players, but no one who is going to light it up. When Z and Dats are gone, what are the Wings going to do if they traded away their future today?

Just something to think about. We have far too many people who believe that trading our future away right now is the way to go. We need to be more careful especially in the salary cap era.

What I see (even though I think higher of our prospects than you) is that even if we don't have the next Datsyuk, we have enough very good prospects to package with a player and a pick for the next elite player we need. I really think the Wings have the prospects to get almost any of the up coming FA if the other teams are willing to deal.
I think we would still have a good farm system after that trade as well. I've never seen our cupboard as full as it is now.

[Nightfall]

I agree achildr1. The cupboard is full now and has good prospects. Is it worth taking some of those prospects and giving them away for something else we can use in the kitchen to make a huge meal today? Even though the meal may not come out right when its done? Cup championship or bust is not the direction to go. We have made the playoffs the last 20 years because of great decisions by this management team, and that includes the 4 Stanley Cups we have won. I stand behind them 100%.

I would like to see us get Parise, but there is part of me that wonders if that is going to be possible. Holland has made the impossible look possible though.

[F.Michael]

I really miss the pre-salary cap era.

10 years ago, we'd be the frontrunners for an Iginla or Perry. Then in the offseason, we could have gotten Weber easily.

Yup

EDIT - As for the salary cap - if/when there's an NHL season the "hard" cap could possibly be gone.

Edited by F.Michael, 17 January 2012 - 11:58 AM.

[hooon]

Sharp has been out for FOUR games and Chicago has won three of them and almost came back to beat Detroit. Chicago has Hossa, Toews and Kane backing up Sharp. Who does Detroit have backing up Datsyuk?? NO ONE on the Red Wings is nearly as good as Datsyuk on BOTH offense AND defense.

Detroit needs another top forward... period. Detroit is going to have Hudler because no one would even want him.... he can not compete with the big teams like San Jose, St. Louis and Vancouver. Yeh he gets a few points against the smaller non-playoff teams... big deal.

San Jose already OWNS the Wings because of their size.... they play Red Wing hockey with SIZE! Detroit simply will not be able to compete in the playoffs if they have back-to-back series with St. Louis, San Jose or Vancouver.

Conklin is useless.... ANYONE would be better than him. IF Howie gets injured Wings are done. If Datsyuk gets injured at any point in March, April, etc... Wings are done. If Stuart stays with the Wings Detroit will get nothing for him.

There is really no one other than Filppula, who Detroit would be willing to trade, who can get you a player that is actually worth something. And like I wrote earlier to get a top forward two top prospects would have to be included with Filppula. Filppula's stock is high right now... come May it will be worthless.

There are now THREE good teams playing the "Red Wing" system..... San Jose, Chicago and St. Louis and they all have the size advantage. Filppula gets thrown to the ice almost as much as Hudler. The second line of Filppula, Z and Hudler will be a very weak one for the playoffs.

Not sure if you missed it, but last season Datsyuk was injured nearly half the year, and the Wings still managed to end up only ONE goal shy of the league lead in goals on the season. Seems like you are basing your entire argument on the awful Islanders game when we were missing Datsyuk, but that was a single game where every single player was playing awful. Datsyuk playing that night would not have made the difference.

As for Sharp, the Hawks have been struggling lately with or without Sharp and are about to head into their toughest stretch of the season. They have like 3 other guys on offense to support him, whereas the Wings already have five players with 10 or more goals and another four players with 9 goals. That's pretty decent support.

A complimentary forward would always be welcome, but its not nearly as gloomy as you seem to make it out to be. The Wings are currently third overall in goals/game (first in the conference, ahead of Chicago).

Seems like you are paying too much attention to the standings and not enough time watching the games.

EDIT: I don't want Pavel to get injured, just saying.

Edited by hooon, 17 January 2012 - 12:34 PM.

[redwingfan19]

Just hope Holland doesn't trade Smith, got loads of forward prospects coming up and not many on D who are anywhere close to being in the NHL.

[chrisdetroit]

Over the last 3 or 4 years, Franzen has been one of if not the top playoff performers in the entire league. Why on earth would we even consider trading him?

Who cares if it takes nights off in the regular season?

Am I missing something?

[achildr1]

I agree achildr1. The cupboard is full now and has good prospects. Is it worth taking some of those prospects and giving them away for something else we can use in the kitchen to make a huge meal today? Even though the meal may not come out right when its done? Cup championship or bust is not the direction to go. We have made the playoffs the last 20 years because of great decisions by this management team, and that includes the 4 Stanley Cups we have won. I stand behind them 100%.

I would like to see us get Parise, but there is part of me that wonders if that is going to be possible. Holland has made the impossible look possible though.

The dilemma is always like this though. And generally when you trade unknowns for known commodities, especially already proven elite ones, you win. Look back at all the recent big name deals. Pronger, Hossa, Kovalchuk, both Gretzky trades, etc. the team that got those players won the deal. Very few go the other way. I would trade Filpulla, one of our best prospects, our 1st + for a guy like Parise or Weber. Those guys are already elite, known, and young commodities and you'd likely lock them up for the rest of their careers which equates to more than 1 or 2 Cup runs. All we spent was potential, which is always a gamble. But the difference is that were gambling with a big chip stack this time and can afford to "lose". Although if you still got a franchise cornerstone out of it, is it still losing?

[Z Winged Dangler]

I'd be surprised and disappointed if we don't at least explore the option of adding something, but not terribly upset if we can't work anything out.

Our good trade assets are pretty much Flip, Nyquist, and picks. Maybe another top forward prospect if we're adding a young star forward. Or Stuart, Kindl, or Smith if we're adding a young star defenseman. Enough to make a good offer, but maybe not enough to match what other buyers are willing to spend.

no way in hell the wings trade nyquist or smith. they're the next 2 stars for the wings. kindl is playing pretty good but is expendable. and flip is having his breakout year. if he'd shoot more he'd be a point per game. i'd rather see tatar go than nyquist. the wings are having a log jam of nearly NHL ready players agian with Jarnkrok, Nyquist, Tatar, Pulkkinen and Andersson all getting close and Ferraro getting back on track in GR looking like he'll be a good 3rd/4th line guy. i think one of the things the wings need to do is quit being passive and keeping guys like homer and cleary on the roster when there's guys that could make more of a splash like nyquist playing on a scoring line or injecting a s*** disturber with energy like mitchell callahan to piss off the other teams stars. the wings need to not waste guys like quincey and fleischmann again and again by bringing in more guys at the deadline. if a bonafide star is available for not a huge hit to the wings core, then yes make a move at the deadline, but don't deal guys like smith or nyquist.

[Nightfall]

The dilemma is always like this though. And generally when you trade unknowns for known commodities, especially already proven elite ones, you win. Look back at all the recent big name deals. Pronger, Hossa, Kovalchuk, both Gretzky trades, etc. the team that got those players won the deal. Very few go the other way. I would trade Filpulla, one of our best prospects, our 1st + for a guy like Parise or Weber. Those guys are already elite, known, and young commodities and you'd likely lock them up for the rest of their careers which equates to more than 1 or 2 Cup runs. All we spent was potential, which is always a gamble. But the difference is that were gambling with a big chip stack this time and can afford to "lose". Although if you still got a franchise cornerstone out of it, is it still losing?

Only if you can sign them to a deal that is reasonable and keeps them producing for you. Otherwise, its just a rental.

Don't get me wrong, I do believe you are correct, but Holland won't trade away for Parise if he is going to be asking for 7.5 million per season. Shanahan was brought in because winning was more important than money to him. He took a hometown discount. Any player that gets brought in here will play for less than market value. The ones that care about money alone won't be brought in here.

[Buppy]

no way in hell the wings trade nyquist or smith. they're the next 2 stars for the wings. kindl is playing pretty good but is expendable. and flip is having his breakout year. if he'd shoot more he'd be a point per game. i'd rather see tatar go than nyquist. the wings are having a log jam of nearly NHL ready players agian with Jarnkrok, Nyquist, Tatar, Pulkkinen and Andersson all getting close and Ferraro getting back on track in GR looking like he'll be a good 3rd/4th line guy. i think one of the things the wings need to do is quit being passive and keeping guys like homer and cleary on the roster when there's guys that could make more of a splash like nyquist playing on a scoring line or injecting a s*** disturber with energy like mitchell callahan to piss off the other teams stars. the wings need to not waste guys like quincey and fleischmann again and again by bringing in more guys at the deadline. if a bonafide star is available for not a huge hit to the wings core, then yes make a move at the deadline, but don't deal guys like smith or nyquist.

To clarify, when I say "Good trade asset" I mean they are assets that other teams would actually be interested in, and so would bring a good return back. I don't mean they are players we should be trying to get rid of.

It would be great if we could trade Homer or Bert or Emmerton, but no one is going to give anything of value for those guys. Tatar isn't doing as well as Nyquist and hasn't played in the NHL this year, so I don't think he'd have as much value. Nor would prospects that are still a couple years away from the NHL.

Nyquist may be our next star, or he may be nothing. Right now, it would be a huge success if he turns into the next Filppula. I'm not saying we should give him away, only that we could potentially get something that helps us more now and doesn't necessarily hurt us in the future.

Fleischmann was traded in a package for the guy who was leading the league in scoring at the time. That was 8 years ago, and he is only recently started to become a noteworthy player. Lang had more immediate impact. Even if we had kept Fleischmann, there's no guarantee we would still have him. We went through a pretty serious cap crunch. We may not have been able to afford him. Nyquist is a similar asset. He's not adding anything right now, and probably wont add much for at least a few years. We can afford to move him if we're getting something good in return.

[Zetterling]

Remember the trade for Stuart at the deadline? I think it was just picks. Great move. If we can get something like that at the deadline they should go for it but the roster is consistently getting better for the playoffs. I can't tell if they have what it takes to make it past the second round yet.

[mjtm77]

Temmu For Hemsky you heard it first right here

Over the last 3 or 4 years, Franzen has been one of if not the top playoff performers in the entire league. Why on earth would we even consider trading him?

Who cares if it takes nights off in the regular season?

Am I missing something?

injured 24/7

[Wing Across The Pond]

What do you guys think about this?

I just saw that Boston is willing to give up a 1st round pick at the deadline. For a while now there has been talk about them being active at the deadline. Same goes for the NYR and Chicago and they currently sit atop the conference standings right now.

So it looks like the best teams in the game right now are not content with where they are at; they are looking to get even better!

GRANTED, we haven't had the type of cash we have now at the deadline in what seems like forever. So based on what we are seeing other teams do, would you guys be disappointed if Kenny doesn't do something somewhat significant at the deadline? This is basically the same team that has lost the last two years and a Chicago with a healthy Sharp is pretty good.

It's also basically the same team that won it 4 years ago. The difference being players who have retired like Maltby, Drapes, McCarty, Drake, Ozzie, Dom, etc. I think we're in a good, if not better, position with Howard in net (although Ozzie and Dom were truly elite players over their careers, but Howard is still young and looking like he could potentially better them), but just need some bottom line people to sure it up like the aforementioned players did. Miller is good, but is not really much more than a PK man, much like Eaves (although he does have slightly more offensive talent). We wont win in the playoffs if our entire bottom 6 forwards are PK men rather than more rounded players. Yeah it's good for a PK situation, but we need someone with a bit more bite during even strength.

For some reason then I thought of Chelios putting his foot on an opposition players stick when he was sitting on the bench. Can't remember who that was though As for who I'd actually like, I don't know. Maybe there's someone in Anaheim that could be brought in cheap, as a rental, just to throw the body around on the bottom line and add a bit of zip.

We've also been unlucky at certain times. Just imagine if we went into last years playoffs with a healthy Modano who had played an entire season, centering one of our bottom two lines. THAT would have been fun to watch but alas, never happened unfortunately.