34 replies to this topic

[redwingfan19]

Abby needs to play on the third line at wing with helm at center

cleary/helm/abby

not sure if babcock has tried this out yet but this is what the 3rd line should be. Get rid of the useless miller and emmerton and get some bangers for the 4th line and rotate eaves and mursak.

[Detroit # 1 Fan]

Get him back on the wing. Then trade Miller+4th to Buffalo for Gaustad, and then Emmerton+3rd for Moen.

Moen-Helm-Cleary
Abdelkader-Gaustad-Homer/Eaves/Mursak

[HelmFan]

Let us compare Helm and Abby- I am assuming you believe that Helm is 'good enough' for the NHL while Abby is not. To put the statistics is perspective, Helm has played two less games, but he has a 2min/game TOI advantage. Helm has played ~45 min more than Abby this season. Thus, Helm's statistics (in total) should be similar or better (if you assume Helm is the better player), as it would take Abby three more games to equal Helm's total TOI.

Face off percentage: Abby has a .2 advantage. IMO this is a draw.
Hits: Abby has 24 more hits than Helm. Advantage Abby.
Blocked Shots: Abby has 5 more. Advantage Abby.
Giveaways: Helm has 4 more. Advantage Abby.
Takeaways: Helm has 8 more. Advantage Helm.
Goals: Both have five. Draw.
Assists: Helm has one more. IMO draw.
PIM: Abby has more (minors and total). Draw IMO as Abby has off-setting minors often.
+/-: Helm has a +2 advantage; however, they have equal goals for when on the ice. Draw/edge Helm.
Fights: Abby has two, Helm hasn't come close. Advantage Abby.

You credit Abby's success to Cleary, but you do not credit Cleary with the success of Helm or Miller. Simply, Abby has done at least as well as Helm (on paper) despite spending more time on a line with Emmerton and Homer. Abby is not the problem, the makeup of the fourth line is the problem IMO.

I'm sorry but saying Abdelkader is better than Helm is completely asinine. This make me think you 1) don't watch many games and judge players by what you see on the game sheet or 2) Abdlekader's moher.

I won't waste my time trying to prove why one player is better than another with someone who is so blatantly ignorant.

I can guarantee you that no one in the hockey world agrees with you on that one. You might find some posters who might agree that Abby > Miller. You should start with that.

And I can guarantee that nobody in league goes into a game worried about being roughed-up, hit, or fought by Abdelakder. I would bet most players haven't even heard of him. Don't worry about him getting traded, he's not worth a 3rd round pick.

[newfy]

GMR are you serious? We should trade ABdelkader and get a real tough 4th liner?

Or maybe this team could just get another tough 4th liner so Abdelkader actually has someone to back him up here and there. If the guy had back up he would be great, he used to stir s*** up with May all the time. I remember the one game in Minny Clutterbuck and Burns both dropped the gloves at separate occasions with Abdelkader.

Hes definitely a tough physical forward, you just had your hopes up for the next coming of Mccarty which Abdelkader isnt. He is a great complimentary tough guy and plays even tougher when he has some back up on his line. This team as a whole is completely soft, once they get someone else in there with Abby that will go into a scrum and back him up youll see him playing tough again.

Its no coicidence that when he was with GR on one of the toughest teams in the league he was killer out there. Also gotta move him from center

[WorkingOvertime]

I'm sorry but saying Abdelkader is better than Helm is completely asinine. This make me think you 1) don't watch many games and judge players by what you see on the game sheet or 2) Abdlekader's moher.

I won't waste my time trying to prove why one player is better than another with someone who is so blatantly ignorant.

I can guarantee you that no one in the hockey world agrees with you on that one. You might find some posters who might agree that Abby > Miller. You should start with that.

And I can guarantee that nobody in league goes into a game worried about being roughed-up, hit, or fought by Abdelakder. I would bet most players haven't even heard of him. Don't worry about him getting traded, he's not worth a 3rd round pick.

Where in my post did I say Abby is better than Helm? I simply presented the statistics, and the statistics are not in favor of Helm.

I have missed less than 5 Wings' games over the past two seasons- I watch the games. I have also played hockey, and I know (first-hand) that speed makes players stand out and they can be perceived as better than they are in reality. Helm is a good player, and I am glad he is on the Wings. Abby is a good player, and I am glad he is on the Wings.

I have presented facts that show (especially if you adjust the numbers for total TOI) Abby is at least as good statistically as Helm. You can argue intangibles if you like, but those are difficult to quantify.

Why is my argument ignorant? I used facts from NHL.com and presented them without making a judgement on the better overall player. Please explain how this is ignorant.

[GMRwings1983]

GMR are you serious? We should trade ABdelkader and get a real tough 4th liner?

Or maybe this team could just get another tough 4th liner so Abdelkader actually has someone to back him up here and there. If the guy had back up he would be great, he used to stir s*** up with May all the time. I remember the one game in Minny Clutterbuck and Burns both dropped the gloves at separate occasions with Abdelkader.

Hes definitely a tough physical forward, you just had your hopes up for the next coming of Mccarty which Abdelkader isnt. He is a great complimentary tough guy and plays even tougher when he has some back up on his line. This team as a whole is completely soft, once they get someone else in there with Abby that will go into a scrum and back him up youll see him playing tough again.

Its no coicidence that when he was with GR on one of the toughest teams in the league he was killer out there. Also gotta move him from center

Everyone is tougher when they have backup. I'm just saying I'm disappointed with his play and think he's easily replaceable. Of course you can say the same about our other 4th liners.

The OP started a thread complaining about his lack of icetime, and I don't think it's a big enough deal.

[WorkingOvertime]

Everyone is tougher when they have backup. I'm just saying I'm disappointed with his play and think he's easily replaceable. Of course you can say the same about our other 4th liners.

The OP started a thread complaining about his lack of icetime, and I don't think it's a big enough deal.

Unfortunately, I don't think any of the current forwards would be as 'tough' with backup as Abby is without backup. It's sad, but it is likely true.

[Buppy]

That is a surprising stat to me for sure. I see Z and Flip on the ice I think "NO CONTEST" for opposing forwards, but if it's not working it's not working. I would love to see Abby on the 2nd line (as well as Eaves but he's had his own woes to deal with at the moment) he would be a thorn in the rose bush so to speak. Abby also responds well when being pushed recently (his mins dropped while playing well??) so at very least trying it out on the road is worth a shot for sure.

It's not as bad as the poster made it seem. Flip is -5 on the road. Hank is -7, and Huds is -9. And I'm pretty sure they were all minus on the road before the line was put together, so maybe even better. And I think the problem is more a lack of scoring than a lack of defense. Defending the other team's top line likely has a lot to do with the fewer offensive chances, but I don't think Abby would help the line at all. Too big a downgrade from Hudler on offense. Cleary would maybe work though.

[pucktividi]

Any chance he reads the forum,cause he has 5 hits already tonight

[newfy]

Any chance he reads the forum,cause he has 5 hits already tonight

Yup he definitely upped the physicality when the game called for it thats for sure, so did Helm. They both need to bring that more consistently

[St. Michael (the Red Wing)]

Good game tonight by Abs. If Abs ever finds a scoring touch "consistently". Lookf****** out.

Abs for the most part this year has been decent to good. He's definitely cut back on taking penalities. And although he's not fighting a lot, that's fine with me Abby really isn't a fighter imo. Like he's not going to take on the heavy weights in the league and shouldn't. I don't really care if he drops the gloves or not as long as he is forechecking hard and plays his ass off during a PK.

He's a solid player 2 way player still with a lot of room for improvement. Glad he's on our team.

Edited by St. Michael (the Red Wing), 23 January 2012 - 10:15 PM.

[SouthernWingsFan]

Abdelkader's been fine. Not great not terrible. As for the boneheaded penalties he took some last playoffs, thankfully those are the types that are extremely easy to avoid, just need to screw your head on tighter and not goof up. He hasn't done that at all this season so...

[clutchngrab]

Both Helm and Abs have been somewhat disappointing this year. I was hoping for a bigger career jump for at least one of the two. I agree that Abbie should not be a center but a fore-checking wing in order to be most effective.

[Motown4013]

Let us compare Helm and Abby- I am assuming you believe that Helm is 'good enough' for the NHL while Abby is not. To put the statistics is perspective, Helm has played two less games, but he has a 2min/game TOI advantage. Helm has played ~45 min more than Abby this season. Thus, Helm's statistics (in total) should be similar or better (if you assume Helm is the better player), as it would take Abby three more games to equal Helm's total TOI.

Face off percentage: Abby has a .2 advantage. IMO this is a draw.
Hits: Abby has 24 more hits than Helm. Advantage Abby.
Blocked Shots: Abby has 5 more. Advantage Abby.
Giveaways: Helm has 4 more. Advantage Abby.
Takeaways: Helm has 8 more. Advantage Helm.
Goals: Both have five. Draw.
Assists: Helm has one more. IMO draw.
PIM: Abby has more (minors and total). Draw IMO as Abby has off-setting minors often.
+/-: Helm has a +2 advantage; however, they have equal goals for when on the ice. Draw/edge Helm.
Fights: Abby has two, Helm hasn't come close. Advantage Abby.

You credit Abby's success to Cleary, but you do not credit Cleary with the success of Helm or Miller. Simply, Abby has done at least as well as Helm (on paper) despite spending more time on a line with Emmerton and Homer. Abby is not the problem, the makeup of the fourth line is the problem IMO.

LOL...How is this a draw? Abby has 26 PIM...6th on the Team. Helm has 4 PIM.....19th on the Team. I know you are trying to stick up for Abby here but this is not a draw ( IMO) since this has been an issue for Abdelkader in his career ( taking silly and untimely penalties) Just sayin'

[WorkingOvertime]

LOL...How is this a draw? Abby has 26 PIM...6th on the Team. Helm has 4 PIM.....19th on the Team. I know you are trying to stick up for Abby here but this is not a draw ( IMO) since this has been an issue for Abdelkader in his career ( taking silly and untimely penalties) Just sayin'

Ten of Abby's penalty minutes are from fighting. Many others are from coincidental minors. These penalties are a positive IMO because they result from standing up for himself and teammates. It's fine if you disagree about that, but I don't think penalties that don't put the team sport handed can be a positive.

Abby has a reputation for bad penalties, bit they have not been a problem this season thus far.