83 replies to this topic

[Danielsm]

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=386420


http://m.detnews.com...01300303&f=1209

Very interesting stat from bottom article:

FEWEST

Red Wings -- 7 fights, 1st in West

Coyotes -- 11 fights, T-10th in West

Canadiens -- 11 fights, 11th in East

Hurricanes -- 13 fights, T-13th in East

Lightning -- 14 fights, 12th in East

Islanders -- 14 fights, T-13th in East

MOST

Rangers -- 38 fights, 1st in East

Bruins -- 36 fights, 2nd in East

Senators -- 34 fights, T-5th in East

Flyers -- 32 fights, 4th in East

Blue Jackets -- 32 fights, 15th in West

[chrisdetroit]

I'd like to see us get younger as a team this summer. I think Bertuzzi and Holmstrom will hang them up over the summer. Obviously Lidstrom's status is still unknown. I'll miss Homer, but at this point, he is no longer effective at even strength, although he is still a powerplay specialist. Assuming Stuart heads west to be with his family, I'd like to see us get a younger guy to take his spot (Tim Gleason). I don't mind Cleary, but his game is kind of on the slide, as well. I think he will be here for at least another year, though.

I hate to disappoint you but Bertuzzi and Homer will most likely be back next year. The Wings love both of them and they love playing for the Wings. Both have been as effective as the Wings expected and neither has significant injuries. Homer is a little banged up but he is the kind of guy that will play through it.

[chrisdetroit]

Very interesting stat from bottom article:

FEWEST

Red Wings -- 7 fights, 1st in West

Coyotes -- 11 fights, T-10th in West

Canadiens -- 11 fights, 11th in East

Hurricanes -- 13 fights, T-13th in East

Lightning -- 14 fights, 12th in East

Islanders -- 14 fights, T-13th in East

MOST

Rangers -- 38 fights, 1st in East

Bruins -- 36 fights, 2nd in East

Senators -- 34 fights, T-5th in East

Flyers -- 32 fights, 4th in East

Blue Jackets -- 32 fights, 15th in West

From the same article.

According to HockeyFights.com, which tracks these things:

In the 1996-97 regular season, leading to the Wings' first Cup in 42 years, the Wings fought 55 times and were 23rd out of 26 teams in the NHL. The Bruins and Islanders led with 90 fights. The Red Wings fought seven times in the playoffs, more than any other team.

In the 1997-98 regular season, the Wings fought 33 times and were 25th out of the 26 teams. The Canucks led with 105 fights. The Red Wings did not fight in the playoffs.

In the 2001-02 regular season, with a roster laden with future members of the Hockey Hall of Fame and other stars, they fought 21 times, the least of any of the 30 teams. The Panthers led the league with 117. Again, the Wings did not fight in the playoffs.

In 2007-08, the Red Wings again fought 21 times, the least of any of the 30 teams. The Flames led the NHL with 70. The Wings fought once in the playoffs

So we won those 4 cups even though we didn't fight. Wow. The LGW fight slappies are not going to like that....

Edited by chrisdetroit, 30 January 2012 - 12:37 PM.

[esteef]

In the 1996-97 regular season, leading to the Wings' first Cup in 42 years, the Wings fought 55 times and were 23rd out of 26 teams in the NHL. The Bruins and Islanders led with 90 fights. The Red Wings fought seven times in the playoffs, more than any other team....

So we won those 4 cups even though we didn't fight. Wow. The LGW fight slappies are not going to like that....

esteef

[redwingfan19]

From the same article.

According to HockeyFights.com, which tracks these things:

In the 1996-97 regular season, leading to the Wings' first Cup in 42 years, the Wings fought 55 times and were 23rd out of 26 teams in the NHL. The Bruins and Islanders led with 90 fights. The Red Wings fought seven times in the playoffs, more than any other team.

In the 1997-98 regular season, the Wings fought 33 times and were 25th out of the 26 teams. The Canucks led with 105 fights. The Red Wings did not fight in the playoffs.

In the 2001-02 regular season, with a roster laden with future members of the Hockey Hall of Fame and other stars, they fought 21 times, the least of any of the 30 teams. The Panthers led the league with 117. Again, the Wings did not fight in the playoffs.

In 2007-08, the Red Wings again fought 21 times, the least of any of the 30 teams. The Flames led the NHL with 70. The Wings fought once in the playoffs

So we won those 4 cups even though we didn't fight. Wow. The LGW fight slappies are not going to like that....

Still had enforcers though.

[newfy]

From the same article.

According to HockeyFights.com, which tracks these things:

In the 1996-97 regular season, leading to the Wings' first Cup in 42 years, the Wings fought 55 times and were 23rd out of 26 teams in the NHL. The Bruins and Islanders led with 90 fights. The Red Wings fought seven times in the playoffs, more than any other team.

In the 1997-98 regular season, the Wings fought 33 times and were 25th out of the 26 teams. The Canucks led with 105 fights. The Red Wings did not fight in the playoffs.

In the 2001-02 regular season, with a roster laden with future members of the Hockey Hall of Fame and other stars, they fought 21 times, the least of any of the 30 teams. The Panthers led the league with 117. Again, the Wings did not fight in the playoffs.

In 2007-08, the Red Wings again fought 21 times, the least of any of the 30 teams. The Flames led the NHL with 70. The Wings fought once in the playoffs

So we won those 4 cups even though we didn't fight. Wow. The LGW fight slappies are not going to like that....

Its not the number that matters, its the fact that they had a plethora of guys who could step up and deal with it when they had to. When the going got tough against teams like the Avs, the wings had guys like Mccarty, Shanny, Kocur, Vladdy, Pushor, and Rouse who could all open up a can of whoop ass when they had to.

If you cant see the difference between that roster and the one now then you are delusional

[LeftWinger]

To me, it would be great to have Moen and Morrow the deadline, then get Suter and Parise over the summer.


Sure it causes a log jam at forward, but I too believe Homer and Bert will retire. Bert may go UFA, but I think Homer is done. He is 39. God Bless him, but he, like Draper and Osgood last year and Maltby the year before needs to hang em up and make room for the "NEW" Red Wings era...

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros]

From the same article.

According to HockeyFights.com, which tracks these things:

In the 1996-97 regular season, leading to the Wings' first Cup in 42 years, the Wings fought 55 times and were 23rd out of 26 teams in the NHL. The Bruins and Islanders led with 90 fights. The Red Wings fought seven times in the playoffs, more than any other team.

In the 1997-98 regular season, the Wings fought 33 times and were 25th out of the 26 teams. The Canucks led with 105 fights. The Red Wings did not fight in the playoffs.

In the 2001-02 regular season, with a roster laden with future members of the Hockey Hall of Fame and other stars, they fought 21 times, the least of any of the 30 teams. The Panthers led the league with 117. Again, the Wings did not fight in the playoffs.

In 2007-08, the Red Wings again fought 21 times, the least of any of the 30 teams. The Flames led the NHL with 70. The Wings fought once in the playoffs

So we won those 4 cups even though we didn't fight. Wow. The LGW fight slappies are not going to like that....

Its not about the amount of fights. Not sure how many times we need to go over this.

In 1996-97, we had a pretty physical team. McCarty, Shanahan, Kocur, Maltby, and Draper were all willing to go to the dirty areas to battle for a puck, and each finished all of their checks. When things got rough, Kocur, McCarty, and Shanahan could take care of business. It was much the same in 1998.

In 2001-02, McCarty, Shanahan, Draper, and Maltby still provided the physical edge for us. Yzerman, Fedorov, Hull, etc blew teams out of the rink with their puck skills. Hasek played insane.

In 2007-08, the physical edge was provided by Helm, Drake, Maltby, and even McCarty. Osgood played great. Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Filppula, etc provided the puck skills. That team, like the other 3 Championship teams, could physically combat other teams, and win puck battles down low. When things got chippy, they were able to "weather the storm". Gritty bottom 6 guys are just as important of a component to playoff success than the finesse guys are.

If people really think our current team can win it all, they aren't paying close attention. This team can't play at a competitive level on the road. I doubt they will be able to pull many road playoff games out of their hat. If we fight 100 times next year, that definitely doesn't guarantee us a Cup. It's not necessarily about fighting. I respect posters like Konnan, who can at least acknowledge that this team needs a change or two, much more than the posters who blindly believe any team that Ken Holland puts together is destined to hoist the Cup. And for those who plan to reply "Well, well, Abby is physical". Gimme a break. He's not physically consistent at all and took a ton of dumbass penalties last postseason, meanwhile not doing a damn thing offensively.

The "LOL BEING PHYSICAL DOESNT MATTER UR JUST A FIGHT SLAPPY" argument has been crushed many times by multiple people here, but those who can't deal with it continue it because they can't swallow their pride and admit they were wrong.

A balance of finesse, grit, good goaltending, effective special teams, and veteran leadership is the key to Hoist the Cup.

[haroldsnepsts]

From the same article.

According to HockeyFights.com, which tracks these things:

In the 1996-97 regular season, leading to the Wings' first Cup in 42 years, the Wings fought 55 times and were 23rd out of 26 teams in the NHL. The Bruins and Islanders led with 90 fights. The Red Wings fought seven times in the playoffs, more than any other team.

In the 1997-98 regular season, the Wings fought 33 times and were 25th out of the 26 teams. The Canucks led with 105 fights. The Red Wings did not fight in the playoffs.

In the 2001-02 regular season, with a roster laden with future members of the Hockey Hall of Fame and other stars, they fought 21 times, the least of any of the 30 teams. The Panthers led the league with 117. Again, the Wings did not fight in the playoffs.

In 2007-08, the Red Wings again fought 21 times, the least of any of the 30 teams. The Flames led the NHL with 70. The Wings fought once in the playoffs

So we won those 4 cups even though we didn't fight. Wow. The LGW fight slappies are not going to like that....

Do you see the contradiction in the bolded statements?

I think the "fight slappies" would be pretty happy with a Wings lineup that dropped the gloves 30 to 50 times a season.


At the time, people didn't consider the Wings Cup winning teams in 97 and 98 to be that tough relative to the rest of the league because they didn't fight as much as other teams. But they would beat the snot out of any Wings lineup in the last decade. More importantly, they were a talented lineup that had good size and a lot of players who weren't afraid to mix it up.

It's not just about the times you actually drop the gloves, it's about being a big physical team that's hard to play against, and a can dish out punishment as well as take it.

The Wings don't have very much of that in their current lineup.

[Frozen-Man]

How come it seems like almost every thread descends into a fighter/non-figher/toughness/soft/grit debate. I understand that the guys mentioned in Dreger's article would add some grit but still. . .

[chrisdetroit]

esteef

Well of course they fought more times in the playoffs. They played more games Duh!

You can't compare teams that played fewer games with teams that played more games and get a valid statistical comparison. That's like comparing the number or murders in New York with the number in Ishpeming.

How come it seems like almost every thread descends into a fighter/non-figher/toughness/soft/grit debate. I understand that the guys mentioned in Dreger's article would add some grit but still. . .

Because there are a lot of LGW members that yearn for the old days when there was more fighting in hockey. That game is gone and many people on here don't want to accept that.

[chrisdetroit]

Do you see the contradiction in the bolded statements?

I think the "fight slappies" would be pretty happy with a Wings lineup that dropped the gloves 30 to 50 times a season.


At the time, people didn't consider the Wings Cup winning teams in 97 and 98 to be that tough relative to the rest of the league because they didn't fight as much as other teams. But they would beat the snot out of any Wings lineup in the last decade. More importantly, they were a talented lineup that had good size and a lot of players who weren't afraid to mix it up.

It's not just about the times you actually drop the gloves, it's about being a big physical team that's hard to play against, and a can dish out punishment as well as take it.



The Wings don't have very much of that in their current lineup.

Sure they fought but relative to the rest of the league, very little and still won Cups.

They are currently first overall in points in the entire league.

I want to see them win more than see them fight or play "tough". They looked pretty tough in those 3 straight wins against a much bigger and tougher St. Louis team who they outscored by a combined margin of 9-3.

Edited by chrisdetroit, 30 January 2012 - 05:59 PM.

[Majsheppard]

Last time I checked... we have too many forwards with plenty of depth... we don't have top end depth... so why would Moen help our team? Because he is a tough guy? I could care less about that, sorry but Miller can play better defense than Moen, Mursak has better upside, and Eaves can bring more offense. I just look at the roster and I don't think adding depth forwards is necessary unless we move a bunch of forwards in the trades. With the way the Wings are playing I don't like that idea. I didn't even bring up the fact Nyquvist could play too if needed.

I definitely do not want to give up our prospects for these guys.

Morrow or Rutuu for a depth forward, one of our north american forward prospects, and a draft pick.

The only way I am fine with a bunch of moves is if we get rid of some of our "trash" and UFA's. Like if Stuart Ericsson Hudler and maybe Bert or Cleary are the guys being moved for big upgrades. I just don't see that happening so why screw around?

I think Rutuu is the best long term bet, but we have long term prospects... none that fill that role though...
Morrow fits better short term and could be more cap friendly in the future.

I would just like to know what Holland considers moveable.

[haroldsnepsts]

Sure they fought but relative to the rest of the league, very little and still won Cups.

They are currently first overall in points in the entire league.

I want to see them win more than see them fight or play "tough". They looked pretty tough in those 3 straight wins against a much bigger and tougher St. Louis team who they outscored by a combined margin of 9-3.

So your proof of their toughness is 3 regular season games against the Blues?

I realize they're first overall in the entire league at the moment. I don't think anyone is saying this teams sucks right now and needs changes to do well in the regular season. It's about going deep in the playoffs.

And I'm not talking about getting a guy who plays 4 minutes a night for a half a season and skates off the bench to a staged fight to the penalty box. This isn't about getting a goon, no matter how much you try to make it sound that way.

[haroldsnepsts]

Well of course they fought more times in the playoffs. They played more games Duh!

You can't compare teams that played fewer games with teams that played more games and get a valid statistical comparison. That's like comparing the number or murders in New York with the number in Ishpeming.




Because there are a lot of LGW members that yearn for the old days when there was more fighting in hockey. That game is gone and many people on here don't want to accept that.

If you read back through the thread, it wasn't the pro-fighting crowd who made it about that.

And that game is gone?? If the Wings were a physical team that dropped the gloves a lot, everyone here would be fight slappies. Because they dont', many take the position that it's obsolete or stupid.

The reigning Stanley Cup champion Boston Bruins had 71 fights last season. It's not like fighting has gone the way of the dinosaur. It just has in Detroit.

[esteef]

Well of course they fought more times in the playoffs. They played more games Duh!

You can't compare teams that played fewer games with teams that played more games and get a valid statistical comparison. That's like comparing the number or murders in New York with the number in Ishpeming.

I'm not comparing anything, just pointing out how you contradicted yourself in your own post. I'm sure you knew that though right?

esteef

[newfy]

Last time I checked... we have too many forwards with plenty of depth... we don't have top end depth... so why would Moen help our team? Because he is a tough guy? I could care less about that, sorry but Miller can play better defense than Moen, Mursak has better upside, and Eaves can bring more offense. I just look at the roster and I don't think adding depth forwards is necessary unless we move a bunch of forwards in the trades. With the way the Wings are playing I don't like that idea. I didn't even bring up the fact Nyquvist could play too if needed.

I definitely do not want to give up our prospects for these guys.

I completely disagree. Moen is one of the better bottom 6ers in the league actually. Defensively, he was a critical part of the best checking line assembled since the grind line and is a great PKer. Saying Miller is better defensively only shows you haven't watched Moen play or youre a homer because Miller is on the wings.

As for Eaves bringing more offense, yeah maybe about 5 more points a season. Moen already has 9 goals this year in 46 games. Eaves has only ever scored 13 as a redwing and now who knows how he'll be when he returns. Moen has 16 points already this season, the most Eaves has had as a wing is 22. Moen has also never played on a team with the depth Detroit has except for on that 07 ducks team.

So basically, Moen is better defensively then Miller and I would say on par with Eaves (pre injury eaves) offensively, while being a better PKer then these guys, a solid hitter (wings dont have many of these) and also a very solid fighter who is also willing (wings have none). He is a MUCH better option then Emmerton, Mursak (He doe have upside but has limited time to get in shape), Eaves (injured and out of shape), hes better than Miller, and provides everything Abdelkaderr does while being better.

Moen is the perfect bottom 6 toughness this team needs to add, giving Emmerton and a 5th would be a good deal for him

[Doc Holliday]

How does the potential of getting Moen (perhaps) and Morrow (yes please) turn into an enforcer/fighting thread?

I think goon and pansy alike could appreciate a Brendan Morrow, or even a Travis Moen being on the Red Wings.

[Detroit # 1 Fan]

How does the potential of getting Moen (perhaps) and Morrow (yes please) turn into an enforcer/fighting thread?

I think goon and pansy alike could appreciate a Brendan Morrow, or even a Travis Moen being on the Red Wings.

That's a good way to put it. But it's true, both players would make us better and more balanced so why not? Sure we'd all like Zach Parise but that's probably not as realistic as the names we've been hearing more and more from the media types like Moen and Morrow.

[Red Wings Addict]

I keep checking back here to see a pinned thread that says "Detroit acquires..."