Is Nicklas Lidstrom The Greatest Detroit Red Wing Of All Time?

[miller76 463]

You went from Yzerman and Lidstrom then directly to McCarty and Draper??

Really?

I thought i made it clear on my post, that Yzerman was my pick. I was merely throwing in great names that helped make the Yzerman era that much greater. That guys like Draper and McCarty were built around Yzerman.

Sorry I lost you.

[toby91_ca 620]

I thought i made it clear on my post, that Yzerman was my pick. I was merely throwing in great names that helped make the Yzerman era that much greater. That guys like Draper and McCarty were built around Yzerman.

Sorry I lost you.

I think you are losing me to. If you are having a discussion about all time greats, I don't think McCarty or Draper should even me allowed to know about the discussion, let alone be involved in it

[miller76 463]

I think you are losing me to. If you are having a discussion about all time greats, I don't think McCarty or Draper should even me allowed to know about the discussion, let alone be involved in it

Well I am sorry you are lost. What is it you don't understand? I merely sated that Yzerman was my pick. Follow me so far? Great. Next I implied a reason for my pick saying that players like McCarty and Draper helped solidify his great position at being an outstanding leader that they built around him with good solid players to play with.

I promise i will never ******* use the words McCarty and Draper and Lidstrom in the same sentence, paragraph or breath ever again! My god are we that super sensitive around here, hanging on every post and how it is completely worded? My god it's the internet.

[Cajanek_Spielmacher 47]

Well I am sorry you are lost. What is it you don't understand? I merely sated that Yzerman was my pick. Follow me so far? Great. Next I implied a reason for my pick saying that players like McCarty and Draper helped solidify his great position at being an outstanding leader that they built around him with good solid players to play with.

I promise i will never ******* use the words McCarty and Draper and Lidstrom in the same sentence, paragraph or breath ever again! My god are we that super sensitive around here, hanging on every post and how it is completely worded? My god it's the internet.

Yeah, it is the internet so why have any pride in anything. It would be - " the words, McCarty,Draper and Lidstrom in the same sentence," OMG the Grammar Police are here!!

[miller76 463]

Yeah, it is the internet so why have any pride in anything. It would be - " the words, McCarty,Draper and Lidstrom in the same sentence," OMG the Grammar Police are here!!

Lets not even get into the whole 'pride thing' around here! Pandoras box

[55fan 5,133]

Well I am sorry you are lost. What is it you don't understand? I merely sated that Yzerman was my pick. Follow me so far? Great. Next I implied a reason for my pick saying that players like McCarty and Draper helped solidify his great position at being an outstanding leader that they built around him with good solid players to play with.

I understood that to mean that you picked Yzerman, and that his greatness was leading a team of players who did their jobs well and since Yzerman brought the team together and lead them, he was great not only as a player but also as a leader.

Players like Lids are great in and of themselves. The Russian Five had great chemistry and was composed of great players. The real feather in Stevie's hat was that he lead a team of role players, such as Mac and Drapes, along with the superstars and brought the team from lacking to dominance.

As for the original question, I'm sticking with Howe, but many, many good points have been raised in this thread, not the least of which is, "What constitutes 'the Greatest Red Wing?'"

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Stay on topic please.

Stating an unpopular opinion does not make you an illegitimate member here.

And honestly the post that started this bickering is that McCarty and Draper shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as Lidstrom, which is pretty accurate when you're discussing their place in the history of the game.

[miller76 463]

Stay on topic please.

Stating an unpopular opinion does not make you an illegitimate member here.

And honestly the post that started this bickering is that McCarty and Draper shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as Lidstrom, which is pretty accurate when you're discussing their place in the history of the game.

My official apology to all who I have offended. My word. I have edited my original post. My bad.

My vote was for Yzerman.

Edited February 13, 2012 by miller76

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

easily.

people might claim yzerman or howe had better careers or were more important to the team's success.

those people would be wrong.

It depends on what kind of success you're talking about. If it's overall financial success of the franchise, certainly Yzerman and probably Howe would be ahead of Lids.

that's not a knock on Lidstrom, but for his career with the Wings there have always been other star players there helping to support him. Yzerman, Fedorov, Zetterberg, Datsyuk.

In the mid 80s, Yzerman was pretty much the only hope and only reason to watch the Red Wings.

[Hockey13Playa 240]

Way to hard to just clearly give this title to one specific Red Wing. Lidstrom is up there for sure but I still have a hard time thinking of anyone but Yzerman. I mean look at the team before he came... he turned the "dead wings" franchise around and delivered successful (to an extent) seasons year after year. Since his time with the wings, they've been nothing but a dominant franchise. I know there obviously is other pieces to the puzzle but I think he was the "foundation".

Even after tying that clarifying that I believe its Yzerman, Lidstrom does deserve some substantial credit. I didn't mention Howe because look at those jerseys in the rafters, all the top dogs, if you will, that played with him. Yzerman had a supporting cast no doubt but not until the 90's. Through the 80's and early 90's her carried the Wings on his back. Looking in the rafters do you see other players from his era? Nope... (Lidstrom eventually). Which is why I give him the nod over Howe, and over Lidstrom. I hope my rambling mess makes some sense...

[brett 1,029]

imo yes he is. the speed precision and skill in todays game versus what it was years ago. even in yzerman time where you could rip a slap shot from the blue line off the rush and score, how often do you see that nowadays. not taking credit away from anyone just think the game evolved so much that you have to flawless every night

[egroen 384]

Off topic now, but interesting that you make reference to Lemieux in terms of how wide of a margin Howe led in points rather than Gretzky. I did a quick comparsion and learned a few things (actually, learned one thing and was reminded of a few others). I didn't realize just how much of a wide marging Howe was winning scoring titles. I guess I just assumed it was small since he didn't put up huge point totals. So here is my comparison in terms of how much each led the rest of the league in the years they won the scoring title.

I've put % in brackets beause scoring was lower in Howe's ara so his margin would look a lot smaller otherwise.

Howe:

'51 - 20pts (30%)

'52 - 17pts (25%)

'53 - 24pts (34%)

'54 - 14pts (21%)

'57 - 4pts (5%)

'63 - 5pts (6%)

Lemieux:

'88 - 31pts (18%)

'89 - 19pts (13%)

'92 - 8pts (7%)

'93 - 12pts (8%)

'96 - 12pts (8%)

'97 - 13pts (12%)

Gretzky:

'81 - 29pts (21%)

'82 - 65pts (44%)

'83 - 72pts (58%)

'84 - 86pts (68%)

'85 - 73pts (54%)

'86 - 74pts (52%)

'87 - 75pts (69%)

'90 - 13pts (10%)

'91 - 32pts (24%)

'94 - 10pts (8%)

A lot of people discount Gretzky's stats because he played in an era where every scored a ton. This is true, but the extent to which he dominated is quite amazing. The bolded stats are just plain stupid.

Another interesting note, if Lemieux didn't miss the entire 94/95 season, he or Gretzky would likely have won teh scoring title for 17 years in a row.

Edit - formatting

Great post - I think a lot of people think Howe is great mainly because he played forever - but at his peak he really was head and shoulders above the rest of the league.

I compared to Lemieux b/c Gretzky's dominance is simply unmatched --- Lemieux (minus Gretzky as his competition) is closer to Howe's margins.

Edited February 13, 2012 by egroen

[KATIEBARTHEDOOR24 426]

Outside Hater Here but I would say Lidstrom is the all time best defenseman. Howe is the best forward all time. Now who is the best Goalie of all time for you b######s!

Please go away and don't come back until you have a real question.

Anywho...greatest redwing? Very tough...to many to choose from really...Gordie

Edited February 13, 2012 by KATIEBARTHEDOOR24

[Electrophile 3,554]

I don't think he's THE greatest Red Wing of all time, but he's definitely in the Top 3. If he wins one more Stanley Cup and one more Norris Trophy, which is conceivably possible this season, I'd put him ahead of Steve Yzerman and right behind Howe. Right now, he's behind both.

[Chelios57 31]

Yzerman for me is easily number 3.

The other top 2 is hard, but I have to give the edge to Lidstrom. It's almost impossible to find a player that can play as long and as consistent as Lidstrom, and that player would be Gordie Howe. But Lidstrom is absolutely perfect, if he ever makes a mistake it blows my mind - because he NEVER makes mistakes!

1: Lidstrom

2: Howe

3: Yzerman

[Jersey Wing 1,521]

Yes, he is

[Guest irishock]

Lidstrom has led his team to 4 stanley cups (6 appearances) in an era where even great teams can't get past the first round of the playoffs. He is clearly the greatest Wing ever to lace up the skates and is the smartest player ever.

[kook_10 1,705]

The best Red Wing? Fedorov. Unmatched skill. Best leader? Yzerman. Most integral? Howe. Player who exemplifies what it means to be a Red Wing? Lidstrom.

Gordie was top 5 in league scoring for 20 straight years. That equals best Red Wing.

I would say Stevie Y still exemplifies the Ilitch era Red Wings. Nick has never experienced the adversity of Stevie, and as such never epitomized the guttiness, skill, tenacity, and work ethic in the way the Captain did.

I agree however, that Nick may be the smartest hockey player ever (or on par with Gretzky).

Edited February 14, 2012 by kook_10

[Opie 308]

Outside Hater Here but I would say Lidstrom is the all time best defenseman. Howe is the best forward all time. Now who is the best Goalie of all time for you b######s!

This guy?

Edit: I am a tool and couldn't get it embedded

Edited February 14, 2012 by Opie

[toby91_ca 620]

Gordie was top 5 in league scoring for 20 straight years. That equals best Red Wing.

But Yzerman really had no chance at that. Big difference between a league of 6 teams and a league of 30 teams (finishing in the top 5 in scoring consistently in today's game is much, much more difficult).

That said, in any era, that type of consistency is incredible since most guys don't even play for close to that long, let alone stay healthy enough to finish that high in scoring each year.

However, I'm not sure that would be an "official" record because technically, Howe finished 6th in scoring in 1960. While he was tied for 5th in points with Henri Richard, Richard had more goals, so Richard finishes 5th and Howe 6th.

[Chelios57 31]

Gordie was top 5 in league scoring for 20 straight years. That equals best Red Wing.

I would say Stevie Y still exemplifies the Ilitch era Red Wings. Nick has never experienced the adversity of Stevie, and as such never epitomized the guttiness, skill, tenacity, and work ethic in the way the Captain did.

I agree however, that Nick may be the smartest hockey player ever (or on par with Gretzky).

Nick never experienced adversity because he automatically makes a team a playoff-team. Nick doesn't have to deal with too much adversity, because he's sooo good that everything looks easy.

[toby91_ca 620]

Lidstrom has led his team to 4 stanley cups (6 appearances) in an era where even great teams can't get past the first round of the playoffs. He is clearly the greatest Wing ever to lace up the skates and is the smartest player ever.

Howe led his team to 4 cups (11 appearances) - I know....different times.

Of the 4 cups that you say Lidstrom led the team to, wasn't Yzerman the captain for 3 of them? Isn't that like saying Messier is the greatest Oiler because he led the team to 5 cups? Not saying Lidstrom is or isn't higher on the list than Yzerman, I'm just not sure this is a great argument either way.

[kipwinger 8,521]

Either Howe or Lidstrom as the top Wing. Yzerman is third. I was just looking at Howe and Lidstrom's career accomplishments to see if anything stood out to me. Jesus Christ, who could pic?

[Uncle Danny 155]

Trying to quantify something like this is a fools errand. Stats and awards be damned. Depending which criteria you use, an argument could be made quite well for any of the three. (IMO) Lidstrom is the best player of the three. His game is flawless. That said, Stevie was the consummate selfless leader, and dragged this team out of the grave by sacrificing his body and completely reinventing his game despite enormous offensive talent. Gordie? Well, geez. What can be said that hasn't already? The man is Mr. Hockey. He's pretty universally recognized as one of the two most important players ever to lace them up, league wide.

It all really depends on your definition of greatest, I suppose. Given that, and voting with my heart, I'm going with Stevie for the reasons outlined above. He had the talent, the leadership and the character to take a dead franchise and turn them into a perennial winner. Plus I love the legend (not sure if it is true or not) that he threatened to retire if he was traded from the Wings -- that's character.

[blgillett 48]

It hard to judge between Gordie and Nick. I think I would say Gordie was the best of his era and Nick the best of modern day hockey followed closely by Stevie Y. Stevie with out a doubt was the best captian to play the game.

Edited February 14, 2012 by blgillett