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Is Nicklas Lidstrom The Greatest Detroit Red Wing Of All Time?


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#21 Konnan511

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 01:30 PM

The best Red Wing? Fedorov. Unmatched skill. Best leader? Yzerman. Most integral? Howe. Player who exemplifies what it means to be a Red Wing? Lidstrom.
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#22 toby91_ca

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 01:30 PM

I have Howe 2nd all-time, behind only Wayne Gretzky. He has led the league in points by Lemieux-like margins, but was mean and good defensively as well. He finished top 5 in points for 20 straight years - next closest is Gretzky at 16. He also led the league in postseason points 5 times.

Off topic now, but interesting that you make reference to Lemieux in terms of how wide of a margin Howe led in points rather than Gretzky. I did a quick comparsion and learned a few things (actually, learned one thing and was reminded of a few others). I didn't realize just how much of a wide marging Howe was winning scoring titles. I guess I just assumed it was small since he didn't put up huge point totals. So here is my comparison in terms of how much each led the rest of the league in the years they won the scoring title.

I've put % in brackets beause scoring was lower in Howe's ara so his margin would look a lot smaller otherwise.

Howe:

'51 - 20pts (30%)
'52 - 17pts (25%)
'53 - 24pts (34%)
'54 - 14pts (21%)
'57 - 4pts (5%)
'63 - 5pts (6%)

Lemieux:

'88 - 31pts (18%)
'89 - 19pts (13%)
'92 - 8pts (7%)
'93 - 12pts (8%)
'96 - 12pts (8%)
'97 - 13pts (12%)

Gretzky:

'81 - 29pts (21%)
'82 - 65pts (44%)
'83 - 72pts (58%)
'84 - 86pts (68%)
'85 - 73pts (54%)
'86 - 74pts (52%)
'87 - 75pts (69%)

'90 - 13pts (10%)
'91 - 32pts (24%)
'94 - 10pts (8%)

A lot of people discount Gretzky's stats because he played in an era where every scored a ton. This is true, but the extent to which he dominated is quite amazing. The bolded stats are just plain stupid.

Another interesting note, if Lemieux didn't miss the entire 94/95 season, he or Gretzky would likely have won teh scoring title for 17 years in a row.

Edit - formatting

Edited by toby91_ca, 13 February 2012 - 01:31 PM.


#23 Hatethedrake!

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 01:39 PM

Boy that's a tough one. The best Red Wing I have ever seen play for the Wings is Stevie Y. However I am too young to have seen Gordie, Lindsay, Delvecchio, Sawchuk, Kelly, Lilja :lol: , etc. But to me Lidstrom would be #2 behind Stevie Y with Feds being #3. My disclaimer is that I have only been watching hockey since 1982.
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#24 cprice12

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 03:07 PM

That's a tough one. We as Detroit fans are lucky to be contemplating who, the greatest was. I think this is an endless argument with possibilities of Howe, Lindsay, Abel, and Sawchuk that paid the price early on, and built a history. Then a kid named Yzerman that in a sense resurrected this organization single handedly in the 80's. Then a continuance of talent of Lidstrom, McCarty, and Draper.

I think my pick would have to be Yzerman for my 1a. He was the cornerstone building block for the modern era Detroit teams.


You went from Yzerman and Lidstrom then directly to McCarty and Draper??

Really?

Edited by cprice12, 13 February 2012 - 03:07 PM.


#25 Cajanek_Spielmacher

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 03:14 PM

Outside Hater Here but I would say Lidstrom is the all time best defenseman. Howe is the best forward all time. Now who is the best Goalie of all time for you b######s! :siren:

Edited by Cajanek_Spielmacher, 13 February 2012 - 03:28 PM.

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#26 miller76

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 03:16 PM

You went from Yzerman and Lidstrom then directly to McCarty and Draper??

Really?

I thought i made it clear on my post, that Yzerman was my pick. I was merely throwing in great names that helped make the Yzerman era that much greater. That guys like Draper and McCarty were built around Yzerman.

Sorry I lost you.
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#27 toby91_ca

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 03:23 PM

I thought i made it clear on my post, that Yzerman was my pick. I was merely throwing in great names that helped make the Yzerman era that much greater. That guys like Draper and McCarty were built around Yzerman.

Sorry I lost you.

I think you are losing me to. If you are having a discussion about all time greats, I don't think McCarty or Draper should even me allowed to know about the discussion, let alone be involved in it :P

#28 miller76

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 03:29 PM

I think you are losing me to. If you are having a discussion about all time greats, I don't think McCarty or Draper should even me allowed to know about the discussion, let alone be involved in it :P

Well I am sorry you are lost. What is it you don't understand? I merely sated that Yzerman was my pick. Follow me so far? Great. Next I implied a reason for my pick saying that players like McCarty and Draper helped solidify his great position at being an outstanding leader that they built around him with good solid players to play with.

I promise i will neverf****** use the words McCarty and Draper and Lidstrom in the same sentence, paragraph or breath ever again! My god are we that super sensitive around here, hanging on every post and how it is completely worded? My god it's the internet.
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#29 Cajanek_Spielmacher

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 03:35 PM

Well I am sorry you are lost. What is it you don't understand? I merely sated that Yzerman was my pick. Follow me so far? Great. Next I implied a reason for my pick saying that players like McCarty and Draper helped solidify his great position at being an outstanding leader that they built around him with good solid players to play with.

I promise i will neverf****** use the words McCarty and Draper and Lidstrom in the same sentence, paragraph or breath ever again! My god are we that super sensitive around here, hanging on every post and how it is completely worded? My god it's the internet.

Yeah, it is the internet so why have any pride in anything. It would be - " the words, McCarty,Draper and Lidstrom in the same sentence," :siren: OMG the Grammar Police are here!! :P
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#30 miller76

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 03:39 PM

Yeah, it is the internet so why have any pride in anything. It would be - " the words, McCarty,Draper and Lidstrom in the same sentence," :siren: OMG the Grammar Police are here!! :P


Lets not even get into the whole 'pride thing' around here! Pandoras box
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lighten up people, it's the internet!

#31 F.Michael

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 03:52 PM

Personally I'll always see Yzerman as the greatest Red Wing.

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#32 55fan

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 04:06 PM

Well I am sorry you are lost. What is it you don't understand? I merely sated that Yzerman was my pick. Follow me so far? Great. Next I implied a reason for my pick saying that players like McCarty and Draper helped solidify his great position at being an outstanding leader that they built around him with good solid players to play with.

I understood that to mean that you picked Yzerman, and that his greatness was leading a team of players who did their jobs well and since Yzerman brought the team together and lead them, he was great not only as a player but also as a leader.

Players like Lids are great in and of themselves. The Russian Five had great chemistry and was composed of great players. The real feather in Stevie's hat was that he lead a team of role players, such as Mac and Drapes, along with the superstars and brought the team from lacking to dominance.

As for the original question, I'm sticking with Howe, but many, many good points have been raised in this thread, not the least of which is, "What constitutes 'the Greatest Red Wing?'"

#33 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 04:21 PM

Stay on topic please.

Stating an unpopular opinion does not make you an illegitimate member here.

And honestly the post that started this bickering is that McCarty and Draper shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as Lidstrom, which is pretty accurate when you're discussing their place in the history of the game.

#34 miller76

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 04:27 PM

Stay on topic please.

Stating an unpopular opinion does not make you an illegitimate member here.

And honestly the post that started this bickering is that McCarty and Draper shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as Lidstrom, which is pretty accurate when you're discussing their place in the history of the game.

My official apology to all who I have offended. My word. I have edited my original post. My bad.

My vote was for Yzerman.

Edited by miller76, 13 February 2012 - 04:31 PM.

lighten up people, it's the internet!

#35 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 04:39 PM

easily.

people might claim yzerman or howe had better careers or were more important to the team's success.

those people would be wrong.

It depends on what kind of success you're talking about. If it's overall financial success of the franchise, certainly Yzerman and probably Howe would be ahead of Lids.

that's not a knock on Lidstrom, but for his career with the Wings there have always been other star players there helping to support him. Yzerman, Fedorov, Zetterberg, Datsyuk.

In the mid 80s, Yzerman was pretty much the only hope and only reason to watch the Red Wings.

#36 Hockey13Playa

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 04:45 PM

Way to hard to just clearly give this title to one specific Red Wing. Lidstrom is up there for sure but I still have a hard time thinking of anyone but Yzerman. I mean look at the team before he came... he turned the "dead wings" franchise around and delivered successful (to an extent) seasons year after year. Since his time with the wings, they've been nothing but a dominant franchise. I know there obviously is other pieces to the puzzle but I think he was the "foundation".

Even after tying that clarifying that I believe its Yzerman, Lidstrom does deserve some substantial credit. I didn't mention Howe because look at those jerseys in the rafters, all the top dogs, if you will, that played with him. Yzerman had a supporting cast no doubt but not until the 90's. Through the 80's and early 90's her carried the Wings on his back. Looking in the rafters do you see other players from his era? Nope... (Lidstrom eventually). Which is why I give him the nod over Howe, and over Lidstrom. I hope my rambling mess makes some sense...

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#37 brett

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 05:43 PM

imo yes he is. the speed precision and skill in todays game versus what it was years ago. even in yzerman time where you could rip a slap shot from the blue line off the rush and score, how often do you see that nowadays. not taking credit away from anyone just think the game evolved so much that you have to flawless every night

#38 egroen

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 05:57 PM

Off topic now, but interesting that you make reference to Lemieux in terms of how wide of a margin Howe led in points rather than Gretzky. I did a quick comparsion and learned a few things (actually, learned one thing and was reminded of a few others). I didn't realize just how much of a wide marging Howe was winning scoring titles. I guess I just assumed it was small since he didn't put up huge point totals. So here is my comparison in terms of how much each led the rest of the league in the years they won the scoring title.

I've put % in brackets beause scoring was lower in Howe's ara so his margin would look a lot smaller otherwise.

Howe:

'51 - 20pts (30%)
'52 - 17pts (25%)
'53 - 24pts (34%)
'54 - 14pts (21%)
'57 - 4pts (5%)
'63 - 5pts (6%)

Lemieux:

'88 - 31pts (18%)
'89 - 19pts (13%)
'92 - 8pts (7%)
'93 - 12pts (8%)
'96 - 12pts (8%)
'97 - 13pts (12%)

Gretzky:

'81 - 29pts (21%)
'82 - 65pts (44%)
'83 - 72pts (58%)
'84 - 86pts (68%)
'85 - 73pts (54%)
'86 - 74pts (52%)
'87 - 75pts (69%)

'90 - 13pts (10%)
'91 - 32pts (24%)
'94 - 10pts (8%)

A lot of people discount Gretzky's stats because he played in an era where every scored a ton. This is true, but the extent to which he dominated is quite amazing. The bolded stats are just plain stupid.

Another interesting note, if Lemieux didn't miss the entire 94/95 season, he or Gretzky would likely have won teh scoring title for 17 years in a row.

Edit - formatting

Great post - I think a lot of people think Howe is great mainly because he played forever - but at his peak he really was head and shoulders above the rest of the league.

I compared to Lemieux b/c Gretzky's dominance is simply unmatched --- Lemieux (minus Gretzky as his competition) is closer to Howe's margins.

Edited by egroen, 13 February 2012 - 06:01 PM.

Red Kelly #4 and Larry Aurie #6 belong in the rafters!!!

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#39 KATIEBARTHEDOOR24

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 05:58 PM

Outside Hater Here but I would say Lidstrom is the all time best defenseman. Howe is the best forward all time. Now who is the best Goalie of all time for you b######s! :siren:

Please go away and don't come back until you have a real question.

Anywho...greatest redwing? Very tough...to many to choose from really...Gordie

Edited by KATIEBARTHEDOOR24, 13 February 2012 - 06:07 PM.

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#40 Electrophile

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 06:08 PM

I don't think he's THE greatest Red Wing of all time, but he's definitely in the Top 3. If he wins one more Stanley Cup and one more Norris Trophy, which is conceivably possible this season, I'd put him ahead of Steve Yzerman and right behind Howe. Right now, he's behind both.

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